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Question:  How many Bitcoins have been lost or likely never to be claimed or used?  (Voting closed: June 03, 2011, 11:55:48 PM)
Less than 1 % - 20 (19.4%)
Less than 5 % - 23 (22.3%)
Less than 10 % - 16 (15.5%)
Less than 15% - 5 (4.9%)
More than 15% - 39 (37.9%)
Total Voters: 102

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Author Topic: Bitcoins Lost  (Read 19591 times)
FatherMcGruder
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March 07, 2011, 09:35:12 PM
 #141

Let's assume they do.  Let's assume all the factory belongs to workers.

What happens if, for some reason, one of the workers wants to sell his share?  He may need some money in short term, he may just not be interested in taking part of the organisation of the factory.  For whatever reason, he has the right to sell his part of the factory, even to someone who doesn't work in this factory.  It's his concern.
I would think that workers would reinvest their earnings from one batch of product to pay for repairs, upgrades, and supplies for the next batch. If you needed some extra money, you could simply contribute less of your earnings from the previous batch than you normally would.
If you really had to, you could promise some your future earnings to someone in exchange for some money now (without interest). But a worker wouldn't get much for selling a share of the building that houses the cooperative because only work done entitles one to a portion of the final product. Also, owning a building is expensive because you have to maintain it. Only it's occupants would be interested in that.

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What I mean is that giving a factory to workers would not change the system, it would just consist in stealing present owners to give to others.
In the case of a revolution, the workers would just be taking back what belongs to them. I'm not too big on that though. I advocate simply divesting ourselves from capitalism.

I have nothing against partnerships. I am only against forced and government-subsidized partnerships.
The employee-employer relationship is forced.

You could always... I donno... what's the word... oh yeah: Buy. You could always go and buy the land you want to use. Of course, that's a larger upfront cost, but you save on overhead.
With what? Furthermore, why pay someone for land that he isn't using?

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Tell you what... When you can take care of everyone else who asks you, and still manage to feed yourself, I'll sign up for the Proudhoun Kool-aid. Until then, you are still a selfish being, and that's a good thing, because it means you can eat.
Well, I take care of my employer, landlord, and lender, for what it's worth.

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Thus re-enforcing my conception that anyone who says "Stop people from doing X!" is really saying: "Please stop me from doing X!" As an employer, did you stick to your convictions, or did you "exploit" your workers?
I couldn't maintain a cooperative, friendly relationship with my single worker while treating her like a worker. I don't see how anyone can. That was a long time ago and I've matured since then. It's definitely besides the point though.

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They are. Market price is what they can get for it. Since what they can get for their labor is (in the example provided) 10 BTC/hr, That's the market price.
Voluntarily selling that which you produce on a market and having to sell yourself are different things.

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He is using it. He goes in every day, probably. He has an office there, from which he does his work. Some of that work is delegating other work.
To that extent he is a worker, yes, he deserves a share of the product that he helps to produce, but only to the extent that the other workers agree.

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Apples and Oranges are both fruit. That doesn't make a tangerine the same as a Granny smith. In other words, Picking other peoples locks to steal their stuff is not the same as employing people.
My point is that you can use your capital to exploit or not.

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Indeed. It also behooves a company to pay its workers enough to keep them.
But only just enough. Wink

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Slavery was not the most profitable way of doing things, mechanization was. That's why slavery was slowly losing out to mechanization. Had the civil war not occurred, slavery would still have ended, with some estimates placing it within just a few years.
I doubt that. Blacks can operate machines just fine. Besides, de facto slavery has persisted since the abolition of the official institution.

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I find it sad that Union workers demand higher wages and greater benefits with no apparent regard for the fact that they are sucking the company dry. So I guess that's one thing we have in common.
Well, you lament that employers don't make as much as they would in the absence of worker solidarity. I lament the dearth of worker solidarity.

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And he's getting it. If he does not like the wages offered, he can seek employment elsewhere, or seek a raise. If his skills are sufficiently valuable, he will get it.
...At the mercy of an employer or other exploiter.

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No, But I'd like to think we've learned a few things since then.
So would I.

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Which they are doing, by working for them, as opposed to attempting to go solo.
This arrangement does not represent a democratic decision as much as it does a shakedown. Having to choose between starvation and a set of extortionists does not equal freedom.

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I'd say the running away is a pretty clear indication... Don't see a bunch of factory workers throwing down their tools and demanding ownership of the company.
At least the slaves had Canada to look forward to. Historically, factory workers did resist the capitalist employee-employer relationship and they paid dearly for it. I'm just doing my part to reawaken workers' sense of indignation. Too many years of servitude have dulled it.

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Garrett Burgwardt
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March 07, 2011, 10:14:14 PM
 #142

Why can't employees work on their own/for themselves?

If you say that it is because the cost of entering business (buying machines, buying a factory, whatever), then that is what the employer is being paid for - rental of the machines and space, as well as providing a steady source of income rather than a more risky solo business.

My point earlier was that a business, run by an employer, absorbs a large portion of the risk by making many things or doing many jobs, then if one or two fails or is less profitable than expected, the employees can still pay their rent or taxes or whatever.

And here's a question: the workers should only sell their products at the cost of the materials that went into the product, yes? If you say that the work should count for something too - that's what we've been saying this entire time. You just want to have everyone avoid paying market rates for things.

Can't stand communists/syndicalists/whatever myself. Philosophy doesn't make sense at all.

And like someone said earlier - an anarcho-capitalist society can host an anarcho-communist one, but not the other way around.
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March 07, 2011, 10:53:43 PM
 #143

Why can't employees work on their own/for themselves?

If you say that it is because the cost of entering business (buying machines, buying a factory, whatever), then that is what the employer is being paid for - rental of the machines and space, as well as providing a steady source of income rather than a more risky solo business.
When you charge another party for the use of something without transferring ownership, you get a piece of their work without having done any work yourself. Meanwhile, they lose a portion of their work and do not meaningfully gain anything. The only reason you can do so is because you have the means to prevent them from using it without your permission. That is a type of blackmail.

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My point earlier was that a business, run by an employer, absorbs a large portion of the risk by making many things or doing many jobs, then if one or two fails or is less profitable than expected, the employees can still pay their rent or taxes or whatever.
Employees often do work, especially in the case of small businesses. That they possess more capital than the other workers ought not to give them special decision making or apportionment powers.

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And here's a question: the workers should only sell their products at the cost of the materials that went into the product, yes? If you say that the work should count for something too - that's what we've been saying this entire time. You just want to have everyone avoid paying market rates for things.
Wat? I don't really have a problem with people selling goods that they rightfully own on a market. Not sure where you got that. I'm against lending with interest, renting, and employing.

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Can't stand communists/syndicalists/whatever myself. Philosophy doesn't make sense at all.

And like someone said earlier - an anarcho-capitalist society can host an anarcho-communist one, but not the other way around.
How did you get on the topic of anarchist communism?

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Dude65535
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March 07, 2011, 11:00:57 PM
 #144

If someone does not have enough money to buy a place to live, can't borrow the money to do it, and can't rent a place to live what are they supposed to do?

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March 07, 2011, 11:11:14 PM
 #145

So, you see, both parties benefit. If it were not so, the "exploited" people wouldn't enter into the deal without a gun to their head.

Again, with the across the boards.  The idea that the lack of a gun guarantees non-exploitation is about as ridiculous as the idea that the existence of a business negates it.  Just stick it in a context you're familiar with for half a second--haven't you ever had a relationship that became manipulative, whether with parent, sibling, or significant other?  People exploit their power over each other up and down.  The fact that there's not firearms involved (usually) doesn't make it any less exploitative.  Let's have at least a minimal complexity of perspective here, if we're to advance opinions intended as relevant or useful.

And who held a gun to your head to stay in such a relationship?

lol, again with the guns.  Thankfully I'm speaking a lot more from second person experience than first, but I seriously hope you're joking.  It doesn't take a lot of imagination to consider dependent children's relationships with their parents, abused spouses when children are involved, etc.  Human psychology has a heck of a lot more to it than just threats of physical force--and anyone who's really gotten down into the guts of it will tell you physical force is by no means the strongest tool for manipulation.

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March 08, 2011, 12:21:48 AM
 #146

If someone does not have enough money to buy a place to live, can't borrow the money to do it, and can't rent a place to live what are they supposed to do?
Make a place to live like most organisms on this planet do.
Anonymous
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March 08, 2011, 12:24:49 AM
 #147

So, you see, both parties benefit. If it were not so, the "exploited" people wouldn't enter into the deal without a gun to their head.

Again, with the across the boards.  The idea that the lack of a gun guarantees non-exploitation is about as ridiculous as the idea that the existence of a business negates it.  Just stick it in a context you're familiar with for half a second--haven't you ever had a relationship that became manipulative, whether with parent, sibling, or significant other?  People exploit their power over each other up and down.  The fact that there's not firearms involved (usually) doesn't make it any less exploitative.  Let's have at least a minimal complexity of perspective here, if we're to advance opinions intended as relevant or useful.

And who held a gun to your head to stay in such a relationship?

lol, again with the guns.  Thankfully I'm speaking a lot more from second person experience than first, but I seriously hope you're joking.  It doesn't take a lot of imagination to consider dependent children's relationships with their parents, abused spouses when children are involved, etc.  Human psychology has a heck of a lot more to it than just threats of physical force--and anyone who's really gotten down into the guts of it will tell you physical force is by no means the strongest tool for manipulation.

Meh, a human that allows himself to succumb to words and assault isn't very hardy to begin with. A gun and other weapon allows other individual to take a life. That's far greater and is nearly impossible to consent to.
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March 08, 2011, 01:55:46 AM
 #148

So, you see, both parties benefit. If it were not so, the "exploited" people wouldn't enter into the deal without a gun to their head.
Again, with the across the boards.  The idea that the lack of a gun guarantees non-exploitation is about as ridiculous as the idea that the existence of a business negates it.  Just stick it in a context you're familiar with for half a second--haven't you ever had a relationship that became manipulative, whether with parent, sibling, or significant other?  People exploit their power over each other up and down.  The fact that there's not firearms involved (usually) doesn't make it any less exploitative.  Let's have at least a minimal complexity of perspective here, if we're to advance opinions intended as relevant or useful.
And who held a gun to your head to stay in such a relationship?
lol, again with the guns.  Thankfully I'm speaking a lot more from second person experience than first, but I seriously hope you're joking.  It doesn't take a lot of imagination to consider dependent children's relationships with their parents, abused spouses when children are involved, etc.  Human psychology has a heck of a lot more to it than just threats of physical force--and anyone who's really gotten down into the guts of it will tell you physical force is by no means the strongest tool for manipulation.
Meh, a human that allows himself to succumb to words and assault isn't very hardy to begin with. A gun and other weapon allows other individual to take a life. That's far greater and is nearly impossible to consent to.
And with those words, it's amply clear to me that you've never been near a war, or an abused child.  Pretty safe place from which to "meh".  Nobody said anything about succumb--the people who survive either situation are probably stronger than you can begin to understand from that armchair.  The idea that having been exploited makes you weak or inferior is very twisted.

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March 08, 2011, 02:24:47 AM
 #149

Meh, a human that allows himself to succumb to words and assault isn't very hardy to begin with. A gun and other weapon allows other individual to take a life. That's far greater and is nearly impossible to consent to.
And with those words, it's amply clear to me that you've never been near a war, or an abused child.  Pretty safe place from which to "meh".  Nobody said anything about succumb--the people who survive either situation are probably stronger than you can begin to understand from that armchair.  The idea that having been exploited makes you weak or inferior is very twisted.

+1 for this.

The whole victim blaming fuck-you-buddy-i'm-ok the poor deserve what they get attitude makes hardcore freemarketeers seems slightly sociopathic to me.

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March 08, 2011, 02:29:51 AM
 #150

So, you see, both parties benefit. If it were not so, the "exploited" people wouldn't enter into the deal without a gun to their head.

Again, with the across the boards.  The idea that the lack of a gun guarantees non-exploitation is about as ridiculous as the idea that the existence of a business negates it.  Just stick it in a context you're familiar with for half a second--haven't you ever had a relationship that became manipulative, whether with parent, sibling, or significant other?  People exploit their power over each other up and down.  The fact that there's not firearms involved (usually) doesn't make it any less exploitative.  Let's have at least a minimal complexity of perspective here, if we're to advance opinions intended as relevant or useful.

And who held a gun to your head to stay in such a relationship?

lol, again with the guns.  Thankfully I'm speaking a lot more from second person experience than first, but I seriously hope you're joking.  It doesn't take a lot of imagination to consider dependent children's relationships with their parents, abused spouses when children are involved, etc.  Human psychology has a heck of a lot more to it than just threats of physical force--and anyone who's really gotten down into the guts of it will tell you physical force is by no means the strongest tool for manipulation.

I'm well aware of such relationships, and I even have firsthand experience with them. And yes, with the guns, because there WAS somebody with an actual gun to force me into such an unwanted abusive relationship. He was called a "police officer." And he even pulled his gun. It was quite surreal, to learn as a teenager that cops weren't (always) the good guys.

When the gun is in YOUR face, you will have that moment too. And while I hope it never happens, it seems that for some people that's the only way they will learn the truth.

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March 08, 2011, 02:36:51 AM
 #151

Meh, a human that allows himself to succumb to words and assault isn't very hardy to begin with. A gun and other weapon allows other individual to take a life. That's far greater and is nearly impossible to consent to.
And with those words, it's amply clear to me that you've never been near a war, or an abused child.  Pretty safe place from which to "meh".  Nobody said anything about succumb--the people who survive either situation are probably stronger than you can begin to understand from that armchair.  The idea that having been exploited makes you weak or inferior is very twisted.

+1 for this.

The whole victim blaming fuck-you-buddy-i'm-ok the poor deserve what they get attitude makes hardcore freemarketeers seems slightly sociopathic to me.

Governement aid programs take 70% off the top for beuracrat fees. Charities take 10-20 %  .  Want to help the poor? Donate to charity....

If they really cared about the homeless government buildings should be used to house them. Just saying. Smiley
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March 08, 2011, 03:10:16 AM
 #152

again with the guns.  Thankfully I'm speaking a lot more from second person experience than first, but I seriously hope you're joking.  It doesn't take a lot of imagination to consider dependent children's relationships with their parents, abused spouses when children are involved, etc.  Human psychology has a heck of a lot more to it than just threats of physical force--and anyone who's really gotten down into the guts of it will tell you physical force is by no means the strongest tool for manipulation.
I'm well aware of such relationships, and I even have firsthand experience with them. And yes, with the guns, because there WAS somebody with an actual gun to force me into such an unwanted abusive relationship. He was called a "police officer." And he even pulled his gun. It was quite surreal, to learn as a teenager that cops weren't (always) the good guys.

When the gun is in YOUR face, you will have that moment too. And while I hope it never happens, it seems that for some people that's the only way they will learn the truth.
I'm very sorry that you had to experience that.  I've faced guns multiple times myself, including during wartime, and I wouldn't minimise the intensity of those moments.  We might be closer to the same page than it seems, because what I was thinking when I wrote the above paragraph was that I'd rather be back in front of those guns than face some of the abusive situations others close to me have been through.  For me only my life was at stake, and only for a moment.  The price I've seen others pay is far higher--and I would never begin to blame them for what some sick bastard did to them.

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March 08, 2011, 03:20:42 AM
 #153

I am in a bad mood today.  I don't know what I am saying. Really it shows my distaste for the volatility of man. I wish we are all strong enough to completely eliminate the terrors that affect us all. If I had one wish, it would be immortality for all.
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March 08, 2011, 03:24:26 AM
 #154

So, you see, both parties benefit. If it were not so, the "exploited" people wouldn't enter into the deal without a gun to their head.
Again, with the across the boards.  The idea that the lack of a gun guarantees non-exploitation is about as ridiculous as the idea that the existence of a business negates it.  Just stick it in a context you're familiar with for half a second--haven't you ever had a relationship that became manipulative, whether with parent, sibling, or significant other?  People exploit their power over each other up and down.  The fact that there's not firearms involved (usually) doesn't make it any less exploitative.  Let's have at least a minimal complexity of perspective here, if we're to advance opinions intended as relevant or useful.
And who held a gun to your head to stay in such a relationship?
lol, again with the guns.  Thankfully I'm speaking a lot more from second person experience than first, but I seriously hope you're joking.  It doesn't take a lot of imagination to consider dependent children's relationships with their parents, abused spouses when children are involved, etc.  Human psychology has a heck of a lot more to it than just threats of physical force--and anyone who's really gotten down into the guts of it will tell you physical force is by no means the strongest tool for manipulation.
Meh, a human that allows himself to succumb to words and assault isn't very hardy to begin with. A gun and other weapon allows other individual to take a life. That's far greater and is nearly impossible to consent to.
The idea that having been exploited makes you weak or inferior is very twisted.
You're putting words in my mouth.
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March 08, 2011, 03:24:45 AM
 #155

I am in a bad mood today.  I don't know what I am saying. Really it shows my distaste for the volatility of man. I wish we are all strong enough to completely eliminate the terrors that affect us all.
I appreciate your honesty--fair enough.

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March 08, 2011, 03:26:45 AM
 #156

I am in a bad mood today.  I don't know what I am saying. Really it shows my distaste for the volatility of man. I wish we are all strong enough to completely eliminate the terrors that affect us all.
I appreciate your honesty--fair enough.
My perception of life has been dulled. I don't know if it is due to my nihilism or what but I don't like it. As myself being life, I certainly want to have sensitivity to life around me. I hope I figure it out.
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March 08, 2011, 03:35:02 AM
 #157

+1 for this.

The whole victim blaming fuck-you-buddy-i'm-ok the poor deserve what they get attitude makes hardcore freemarketeers seems slightly sociopathic to me.

No, I don't think like this. Rather, only the two persons who entered in an economic relationship or exchange get to decide what's fair and what's not. Anybody who don't have a damn stake in the matter should get the fuck out of the way.

Some people thought the low payment for freelancing gigs I got were exploitation against me. Fuck them. They don't know a damn thing about my life situation.

FatherMcGruder thought paying interest rate is evil. I was given a loan at interest rate by Nanotube and I was perfectly happy with it. Fuck FatherMcGruder for thinking that my affair as exploitative.

I have the right to work. Don't get in my way.

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March 08, 2011, 03:36:20 AM
 #158

I am in a bad mood today.  I don't know what I am saying. Really it shows my distaste for the volatility of man. I wish we are all strong enough to completely eliminate the terrors that affect us all.
I appreciate your honesty--fair enough.
My perception of life has been dulled. I don't know if it is due to my nihilism or what but I don't like it. As myself being life, I certainly want to have sensitivity to life around me. I hope I figure it out.
That's a tough place to be in.  Something that's worked for me from experience is to make sure you spend time around people who live with purpose, and it never hurts to do some volunteering around kids and young people--there's a lot of wisdom in the perspectives of the unjaded.  Coax a smile right up out of you:  help you remember what that part of you inside is connected to.

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March 08, 2011, 03:45:13 AM
 #159

I am in a bad mood today.  I don't know what I am saying. Really it shows my distaste for the volatility of man. I wish we are all strong enough to completely eliminate the terrors that affect us all.
I appreciate your honesty--fair enough.
My perception of life has been dulled. I don't know if it is due to my nihilism or what but I don't like it. As myself being life, I certainly want to have sensitivity to life around me. I hope I figure it out.
That's a tough place to be in.  Something that's worked for me from experience is to make sure you spend time around people who live with purpose, and it never hurts to do some volunteering around kids and young people--there's a lot of wisdom in the perspectives of the unjaded.  Coax a smile right up out of you:  help you remember what that part of you inside is connected to.
This is a bit contradictory but I think I am going to go visit an old folks home. Thanks for the idea, albeit indirect.
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March 08, 2011, 03:46:40 AM
 #160

And of course, Atlas, my suggestion remains to try and find a purpose for yourself. Sure, we live pointless lives on a small rock hurtling through space, but fuck it I'm going to have some fun with it.
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