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Author Topic: [SKY] Skycoin Launch Announcement  (Read 381241 times)
LiskEnterprise
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August 09, 2017, 06:56:57 AM
 #3161

https://www.skycoin.net/distribution/ Crowdfund has started - End date 12:00PM GMT August 31st 2017

Why is he starting this shit, 4 hours before the ICO?

He private messaged someone and said he was trying to cause panic selling. I think he is intentionally spamming FUD everywhere, to drive the price down.

WOW that is concerning...

As it is a direct lie .

Who is this someone?

What was the message?

I could buy your arguments above until i got to here.

Thats a direct lie from the main dev account.

Thats all i need to be out of here

you cannot have it both ways... A post above says i have been arguing daily for months and now you say i plan it on the ICO??

This is not an Initial anything this is one of your continuing coin offerings.

Also there are 100,000,000 coins available direct from genesis.

They are held in 100 separate accounts, do not lie and say they do not exist yet.


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LiskEnterprise
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August 09, 2017, 07:04:11 AM
 #3162

I don't get this ICO.
Only just a little over 5% of this coin is circulating - the rest of the premine is held by skycoin.
This is creating an artificially high price.
1 skycoin = 0.0012 on cryptopia right now.
Yet the ICO price is 0.002!!!

Good luck with that.

There is no credibility here.


Thats what i questioned in the telegram..

Blocked for my efforts.

This project is great reading if you go all through the forum but complete fiction in reality.

The telegram started to fill with fake users and sockpuppets always same first post "Should i buy skycoin now?"

Same answer from the five active members there, "yes buy before the ICO before it moons."

The outstanding 96% of coins their answer is just to trust the anonymous dev.

With the .002 price they are requesting it places skycoin at over $600,000,000 in market cap and that is BS.

I know of no decent tech released yet?

I ask for a show of the products created by their 20+ PHD devs..

they say over 40 devs so half of that is 20 devs with PHDs, really??

The skycoin forum admin here is posted under many different people so you never know who is behind the post.

Same as the telegram the synth username is multiple people posting in that name.

Just ask these questions there...

blocked..

We think you are trying to drive the Skycoin price down and cause panic selling, by spamming every single board and chat room with FUD.

Four hours before the ICO started, you starting spamming Bitcoin talks and telegram and all the channels with a bunch of lies and bullshit.

What every board and chat room, you mean just here and in the telegram?

I was talking about the ICO price and the transparency issue i had with this ICO and skycoin platform and staff.

Then i was blocked there and so i posted here.

Now i see you will publicly lie as above..

I know this has a future that is rocky to say the least.

If the price goes down alot form here. It is not from FUD it is becasue i was right.

With the blocking and lieing i am next sure you will jack the cryptopia price with your new ICO money to PR the ICO.

But i would guess sub 0.008 in a few weeks.

The one lie above about PM to someone about FUD to drop price was what shocked me as you know that to be a lie and you know i know it. So of course i would out you here lieing.

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August 09, 2017, 08:57:24 AM
 #3163

Just want to point out that coin distribution price is fine. It cannot be lower, otherwise, those who bought coins at 0.0016+ will lose money immediately. So 0.002 is ok for everyone who already bought SKY and it's very good that devs don't hurt existing coin holders and community(!). Would you be happy to buy now for 0.001 and after few month see new distribution at price of 0.000001? Probably not if you want to hold and not dump coins immediately at a higher price. So if someone wants to buy cheaper than 0.002, you have options to do so (and this is not "pump" advice, it's just reality). If you think that price will go lower and lower, just wait and buy later - that's very simple.
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August 09, 2017, 09:30:58 AM
 #3164

Just want to point out that coin distribution price is fine. It cannot be lower, otherwise, those who bought coins at 0.0016+ will lose money immediately. So 0.002 is ok for everyone who already bought SKY and it's very good that devs don't hurt existing coin holders and community(!). Would you be happy to buy now for 0.001 and after few month see new distribution at price of 0.000001? Probably not if you want to hold and not dump coins immediately at a higher price. So if someone wants to buy cheaper than 0.002, you have options to do so (and this is not "pump" advice, it's just reality). If you think that price will go lower and lower, just wait and buy later - that's very simple.

IMO the price is not OK. The price is too high.
Why would anyone buy into this ICO when the market price is nearly 50% lower?
Anyone paying even the market price is kind of foolish when circa 95% of the coins are yet to be distributed.
Look at something like Byteball which is being distributed for FREE. There is a huge buzz around it, yet the price is falling as more supply comes online. Simple economics.
The coins need to be distributed for this project to be taken seriously but attempting to gouge the community like this is not the way it's going to get done.
No one is really talking about Skycoin on here and that's not going to change unless more people are able to get on board at a FAIR price.


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August 09, 2017, 10:01:29 AM
 #3165

Just want to point out that coin distribution price is fine. It cannot be lower, otherwise, those who bought coins at 0.0016+ will lose money immediately. So 0.002 is ok for everyone who already bought SKY and it's very good that devs don't hurt existing coin holders and community(!). Would you be happy to buy now for 0.001 and after few month see new distribution at price of 0.000001? Probably not if you want to hold and not dump coins immediately at a higher price. So if someone wants to buy cheaper than 0.002, you have options to do so (and this is not "pump" advice, it's just reality). If you think that price will go lower and lower, just wait and buy later - that's very simple.

IMO the price is not OK. The price is too high.
Why would anyone buy into this ICO when the market price is nearly 50% lower?
Anyone paying even the market price is kind of foolish when circa 95% of the coins are yet to be distributed.
Look at something like Byteball which is being distributed for FREE. There is a huge buzz around it, yet the price is falling as more supply comes online. Simple economics.
The coins need to be distributed for this project to be taken seriously but attempting to gouge the community like this is not the way it's going to get done.
No one is really talking about Skycoin on here and that's not going to change unless more people are able to get on board at a FAIR price.


What price you think is "fair" and fair for whom?

If it's too high, just don't buy. If you want cheaper, you can buy at an exchange. If you want even cheaper than on exchange wait till the price goes down (because of all reason you think the price should go down). What's a problem? You are not obligated to participate in the distribution, especially if you think that it doesn't worth it.
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August 09, 2017, 10:19:33 AM
Last edit: August 09, 2017, 04:46:11 PM by skycoin
 #3166

I don't get this ICO.
Only just a little over 5% of this coin is circulating - the rest of the premine is held by skycoin.
This is creating an artificially high price.
1 skycoin = 0.0012 on cryptopia right now.
Yet the ICO price is 0.002!!!

Good luck with that.

There is no credibility here.


The whole point of this distribution was for the tech VC, whale cartel, and Korean/Japanese whales.

Its not for public.

Everyone is messaging and asking for a different price and wants large blocks OTC at discount to  market and we do not have a uniform process for handling this. So we are testing policy of doing the larger OTC blocks above market, then using the bitcoin as automatic price support.

The starting ICO valuation was very high, making distribution difficult and we have several options.

- For instance, we may do ninja announcement of a coin burn of 80% of the coins (reducing total supply permanently to 20 million)
- We may hard cap coin distribution to 5% per year
- We many do network incentives at the maximum rate that will only half the coin price regression line, while targeting 20% or 30% distribution, before a hard-cap of 5% distributed coins per year

We are going to do series of OTC sales and distribution events up to 10% (from 5.8% currently).

Once we are at 10%, then getting to 20% is only a 2x dilution.

Then from 20% to 30% is only 50% dilution in price per coin. And we will see what effect distribution through incentives for network participation has (bbs, skywire, etc).

Then cap of 5% max per year.

=== The Critical Period

The critical and trying period for Skycoin is where we are now, going from 5.8% dilution and low volume to 10% distribution.

We are doing OTC sales with the whales, to build up a Bitcoin fund for price support to reach the 10% distribution milestone.

At the same time, we are going to build liquidity by listing on larger exchanges. And also launch the first applications for public
- sky-messenger
- mobile wallet
- skycoin hardware for skywire network (skywire miner)
- skywire
- bbs application
- web-wallet
- viscript (orchestration and control for multiple skycoin/skywire/cxo nodes)
- CXO daemon (used by BBS)

So this distribution event is for people with too much money, who have researched the project, to buy 300 BTC blocks of Skycoin. Whales and VC, institutional investors, etc.

Also, for infrastructure testing. The existing ICO infrastructure will work for an OTC bot, so there will be a uniform process for handling OTC sales at spot price.

=== ICO trouble

We did regression line and the price should have been at 0.002 weeks ago by now.

However, someone (we presume who bought a few dozen BTC of skycoin early on) keeps selling at the $4.00 price point and it is taking weeks to eat through however many Skycoin he has. And we have been watching this for weeks.

The demand is pretty constant and I assume he will run out of Skycoin eventually.



===

The problem right with the skycoin markets is
- no one who has coins want to sell (vast majority are buy and hold, long term and just keep buying at constant rate or when they can get a deal)
- the people buying are acquiring long term positions are doing so, without driving up the prices (they are buying over long term and consolidating positions, not doing panic/frenzy buying)
- the spreads are still massive

We tried injecting coins into the OTC market at discount (30%) and it was working, but eventually some people realized they could immediately sell the coins at profit and it began droving down the price.

Then we tried small OTC sales at spot price. Which worked very well and the price per coin seemed to rise in the weeks after OTC sales and market cap increased a large multiple of amount of coins sold. I think from network effects and people promoting or tweeting. This also indicates that distribution for network activities will be very successful (like Steemmit did).

Now we are trying OTC above spot price.

The theory was that if we set the distribution event price at 0.002 BTC/SKY (500 SKY/BTC), that if it only took 50 BTC to move the market to 0.002 BTC that people would buy out the order book until the price rose to 0.002 BTC. Then this would produce a new price floor.

However, 20 hours in that has not happened yet and the price is still at 0.0012. So we will see what happens.

What did happen is that the liquidity/trading volume dropped. I think because people are not sure what will happen.

Then on the 15th, we will try a second distribution strategy.

Over the long term, the OTC distribution bot price will be reduced to be closer to the market spot price, but the number of coins available per day will be extremely limited. Where as the current distribution is significantly above market price but a very large number of coins are available relative to the existing market cap.

The total capital raise going from 5.8% to 20% distribution will be able 15 million or about 3000 Bitcoins. So I do not think the market cap is too high and there is still room for significant increase even during the distribution.

So the primary goals are
- raise money for development
- raise money for price support and market making
- increase liquidity
- test and determine systematically what kind of distribution policy and rate is best for reaching the distribution targets, without driving down the coin price

Just like Bitcoin, we expect most of the price appreciation is going to be as the distribution rate tapers and during periods of maximum user base growth.

So we are trying to do this systematically and with a bunch of small experiments.

Once the applications are done, the Skycoin market cap might be at 50 million dollars.
- We will be able to calculate the cost per user acquisition and required user incentives for userbase growth
- We be going from 15% to 20% distribution to 30% distribution (probably through the network incentives) and therefore will have about ~25 million or 50% of the market cap for user acquisition/behavior incentives (like Steemit did).
- $25/user, 25 million, 1 million users, plus organic, etc...
- then ideally the skywire incentives are tweaked so the mean revenue per user (capital inflows), exceeds the cost per user over lifetime

That is the point where, the network is operating in a closed, internal economic cycle. Achieveing this closed economic cycle is one of the one to two year, higher order goals that development is directed towards.

If we can achieve the goals of a closed or self contained economic system, that would be a major milestone for crypto. We need to have producers and consumers and they need to be balanced out in a closed cycle.

The Steemit, Bitcoin and Ethereum model is not viable in the long term, because the mining rewards and incentive costs are being subsidized by a transitory capital inflow bubble into a new asset class (cryptos). Bitcoin would not be viable if the hundreds of millions of dollar a year of operating costs for the network, were being taken out of the pocket of the Bitcoin users directly as transaction fees. It is only viable with hundreds of millions of dollars of new external money, to buy out the new bitcoin being dumped to pay for the network operating costs.

This is why the Skycoin project focused the first four years on research into new mining algorithms to reduce or eliminate network operating costs.

Then, we know know that there will be thousands upon thousands of new coins over the next ten years, so we choose a protocol heavy niche, that we wont be displaced from and where it does not make sense for anyone to complete with us. While individual products and features can be copied or clone trivially (and will be), ecosystems and protocol standards cannot be copied and have the longest lock in and most sustainable advantage for this type of product.

You can see this clearly with Ethereum, where the primary usage of Ethereum has become launching ERC20 tokens. So while any coin is able to clone the Ethereum Virtual Machine and add turing complete smart contracts to Ethereum, it becomes much harder to clone the ethereum user community, the application ecosystem and the ERC20 ecosystem.

So we are building out the Skycoin ecosystem systematically and strategically along what we think will be best for the long term.

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August 09, 2017, 11:04:12 AM
Last edit: August 09, 2017, 04:44:27 PM by skycoin
 #3167

=== FileCoin/IPFS vs Skycoin

We have been asked what is the difference between CXO and IPFS.

File Coin has the same objectives as a part of the Skycoin infrastructure, but is taking a different approach. They have three separate protocols
- IPLD
- IPFS
- Multi-formats

- IPLD is a representation language for immutable data objects and hashes.
- IPFS is a file system
- Mult-formats is a self describing data standard

In Skycoin CXO does all three of those
- Multi-formats is just a "schema" in CXO
- IPLD is just CXO (immutable data structures, hash chains, replication, merkle trees etc)
- IPFS is just an application on top of CXO (CXO is immutable object system and files are just objects, so do not need special treatment because files are just a type of object)

FileCoin does "proof of storage". While Skycoin takes a different technical approach, because we think proof of storage is too complicated and is not really what the user wants and its not actually the bottleneck.

IPFS/IPLD/Filecoin is designed to integrate into the existing web-infrastructure and javascript. While skycoin is implementing a new eco-system de-novo (skywire, CXO, CX), because the existing ecosystem lacks required mathematical properties (javascript is not deterministic, implementations vary between browsers, cannot be used to embedded on blockchain or used to full potential because of legacy issues).

And additionally, because privacy and security is not something that can be duct taped on to the top level of a stack, but requires the proper design of every component from the hardware, up. Skycoin takes a mathematically strict, elegant approach that allows a simpler implementation by having a self contained standard and eco-system.

So file-coin will integrate with the existing internet and will just be a javascript library that can be imported. Skycoin will have a new internet with parallel protocols and hardware.

The roughness and impedance mismatch is always going occur at the system interfaces and skycoin took take the approach of minimizing the components to the minimum, being self contained and minimizing dependencies between the modules. One of the reasons we did not do "proof of storage" for incentives was that it required making file storage a dependency upon the blockchain and we felt file storage already operates efficiently, without adding the overhead of a blockchain, so that this was not the right place to put the user incentives.

We did not want to build a "new internet" that simply shuts down like an arcade machine because the user did not put in enough coins. We did not want the user experience, to be having to pay for every single feature, button click, file download or action, when each action is effectively costless.

So Maisafe, Ethereum, FileCoin/IPFS, are all taking a different approach and philosophy, but heading in the same direction. There are substantial differences in scope and technical implementation
- Ethereum tries to put everything in the world on a single blockchain (while skycoin puts almost nothing on the blockchain, except coin payments. Skycoin has an individual blockchain for its version of ERC20 tokens, instead of putting all the tokens on a single monolithic blockchain)
- MaidSafe is concerned with identity and has the least blockchain (while in MaidSafe there are global identities, in Skycoin Identities are just public keys and are pseudo anonymous. MaidSafe does not actually have a blockchain)
- FileCoin is concerned with proof of storage and only file storage (Skycoin also includes communication and computation as primitives. Skycoin's storage mechanism is independent of the blockchain and is only monetized indirectly)
- Golem is only concerned with renting out servers/GPUs by the hour for coins (which is the same as EC2 that takes Bitcoin and will just be a minor feature of more advanced networks)

One of the problems in the Skycoin Project, is that the documentation and whitepapers only cover the work on consensus (two years old already) and have do not show the current development work and ecosystem. So the website needs to be updated and we need new white papers about each of the sub-projects.

The development is significantly ahead of documentation. For instance CXO applications (BBS) are already in testing and light usage, while the white paper for CXO still has not been written yet.

So we are still catching up on the marketing and communication back log.

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August 09, 2017, 12:56:15 PM
 #3168

Good post...

Maid has actually no blockchain at all.

And i think closer to getting a full release than people think.

I see everything being effected by IOTA with no blockchain, Instant transactions, no fees and soon smart contracts.

It would be interesting to get your view on how Sky and IOTA compare.

IOTA is POW but not by a miner.

When you do a transaction you POW 2 transactions of others from your own wallet.

Are you aware of IOTA consensus security?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nswo5CurPxA




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August 09, 2017, 03:40:16 PM
 #3169

...vomit...


What a shill.
LiskEnterprise
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August 09, 2017, 03:49:29 PM
 #3170

Chill...

One dev lied one dev posted a useful post...

Multiple people using this username skycoin is not ideal..

take a pill

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August 09, 2017, 05:16:07 PM
 #3171

Good post...

Maid has actually no blockchain at all.

And i think closer to getting a full release than people think.

I see everything being effected by IOTA with no blockchain, Instant transactions, no fees and soon smart contracts.

It would be interesting to get your view on how Sky and IOTA compare.

IOTA is POW but not by a miner.

When you do a transaction you POW 2 transactions of others from your own wallet.

Are you aware of IOTA consensus security?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nswo5CurPxA


Skycoin was designed from day one for DAG.

The major problem with DAG, is that there is nothing to upper-bound the CPU/bandwidth usage of the network.

With Skycoin, we can limit the network to use 5 KB/s and we can put hard upper bounds on the CPU, memory and bandwidth usage. This will be very important in a war scenario, submarine cables being cut or if governments start aggressively blocking VPNs and applications.

Or if everything is working correctly, we can do 300 transactions/second or as many as needed. But during stress or crisis, the resource upper bound can be cut back and hard capped. This is really important in many situations.

The biggest threat, is not attacking the network the way people imagine it. The biggest weakness of the existing coin designs is denial of service attack and spamming the network with junk data.

With a tangle/DAG, it is too easy to spam the network with massive amounts of transactions and increase the bandwidth/CPU usage, until nodes start dropping off.

Even if Skycoin moves from blockchain to DAG, we will still be using the consensus infrastructure and created another metric called "CoinHours" to rate limit the global transaction rate.

Whole countries are going to block VPNs, block foreign websites and cut themselves off from the global internet within twenty years. They are going to mandate special domestic network protocols. They will (and are) using machine learning to identify particular types of traffic and drop them, redirect them or cut them off.

The Skycoin architecture was designed for high reliability in a cyber warfare scenario, with active attempts at detection and termination of network connections, fixed CPU/memory constraints and potentially an upper cap on bandwidth.

---

For instance we will have "Sky-messanger" and ability for machine to machine communication by public key
- Sky-messanger will have multiplexer and multiple redundant channels or connection methods available, including CXO mutual pub-sub, direct TCP/ip connection (TOX-like), skywire (multi-hop, pluggable transport, like open-flow), etc

Then we will have an "asynchronous wallet". That runs through sky-messenger. So that even if you do not have enough bandwidth/storage/cpu you can still get wallet updates and inject transactions (thin client). And this will work, even if the network is extremely limited and connectivity is unreliable and available bandwidth is limited. This will even work over SMS channels or HAM radio and will very light.

So we have different "degrees" or level that a node can operate at
- ultra-thin client (ex. mobile wallet that just can check balances and send, get streaming history updates, etc)
- normal node (fixed bandwidth, CPU, RAM upper bounds)
- super-node (cluster of +16 arm boards (the skywire miners), skywire nodes, route topology information, CXO nodes, content (BBS nodes, etc), skycoin thin client access points, dedicated hardware interlinks to other clusters, etc)

So while a normal client only takes input from a finite number of nodes for consensus, etc

A super-node might have subscriptions and peer-to-peer replication of every pubkey/node participating in the whole consensus network. It may also have a full route and topology map for the whole skywire network and would be exposing services and APIs to other nodes.

So we "finished" the blockchain part and then we are expanding out in another direction. The "blockchain" part is "done" for now and the other parts of the network become much more important to the future direction, because there is nothing with the blockchain we can improve beyond the existing architecture/design.

So the low hanging fruit is at the network architecture level, the application layer and we are almost done innovating or making changes with the blockchain layer completely.

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August 09, 2017, 09:19:50 PM
 #3172

I have 2 questions regarding this:

A normal, non-super-node can also receive SKY for being part of the network?

The price for a super-node hardware?
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August 10, 2017, 06:06:49 AM
 #3173

>With the .002 price they are requesting it places skycoin at over $600,000,000 in market cap and that is BS.

No. You are lying again.

Coinmarketcap.com says the market cap is 23 million. You say it is 600 million.

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/skycoin/

Coinmarketcap is only taking into account ~5% of total actual amount of Skycoin available. Although only 5% is available to the public doesn't mean there aren't more coins out there held by the dev team, not saying thats a bad thing. So the actual market cap of all Skycoins out there is actually 600 million.

Just like only a % of shares are publicly trading on exchanges, total market value of the company takes into account all the shares out there, including those held by company employees.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
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August 10, 2017, 08:09:23 AM
 #3174

>With the .002 price they are requesting it places skycoin at over $600,000,000 in market cap and that is BS.

No. You are lying again.

Coinmarketcap.com says the market cap is 23 million. You say it is 600 million.

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/skycoin/

Coinmarketcap is only taking into account ~5% of total actual amount of Skycoin available. Although only 5% is available to the public doesn't mean there aren't more coins out there held by the dev team, not saying thats a bad thing. So the actual market cap of all Skycoins out there is actually 600 million.

Just like only a % of shares are publicly trading on exchanges, total market value of the company takes into account all the shares out there, including those held by company employees.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


You are right.

6 million coins have been sold.

94 million coins are held by the alias skycoin.

BTC is different becasue the coin release and creation is known in advance and can be predicted into the future.

Here all 100,000,000 coins were created at genesis.

At the current price of 0.01 BTC = $3 per skycoin.

So in the public hands is $18 million dollars worth of coins.

With the devs are 94 x $3 = $282 million dollars worth.

So a total of $300,000,000 market cap.

But of course the ICO is asking double this.


----------------

I think the ICO should have been held at 0.01 BTC.

Would have been a success.

Even though $300,000,000 is still too high for a github alpha only project

---------------

But until there is a coded treasury model built into the system with a set rate of coin release not in the control of anyones whim or available to be dumped, stolen or misused. I cannot see how they can make this an economic success.


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August 11, 2017, 02:40:53 AM
 #3175

>With the .002 price they are requesting it places skycoin at over $600,000,000 in market cap and that is BS.

No. You are lying again.

Coinmarketcap.com says the market cap is 23 million. You say it is 600 million.

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/skycoin/

Coinmarketcap is only taking into account ~5% of total actual amount of Skycoin available. Although only 5% is available to the public doesn't mean there aren't more coins out there held by the dev team, not saying thats a bad thing. So the actual market cap of all Skycoins out there is actually 600 million.

Just like only a % of shares are publicly trading on exchanges, total market value of the company takes into account all the shares out there, including those held by company employees.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


Its the same as Bitcoin.

There are existing/issued coins. (ex. 1 million coins exist)

There is a supply or issuance cap (ex. 23 million maximum coins)

There is a tapered and decreasing, relative rate of coin issuance according to a schedule.

---

>So the actual market cap of all Skycoins out there is actually 600 million.

We did multi-agent simulations and modeling of this. It is actually a fallacy/misconception.

Because releasing all the coins, would suppress the market price. If we dumped all 100 million coins RIGHT NOW. The market price would still be 23 million.

If the number of coins in circulation is increased 10x, then the price for each coin declines to 10%. That is because what matters is the per capita capital inflows and coins per user.

Increasing number of coins in circulation, does not increase the market cap. It decreases the price per coin.

So for instance, if we have a 20 million dollar valuation right now. AND we increase the user base size by 30x, the valuation will be 600 million (which is where Qtum is right now).

This is why everyone is making so much money investing in altcoins. The userbases are expanding at an exponential rate (new market), that is faster than the debasement from mining rewards.

If we double the number of coins in circulation, then the market cap is the same. The price per coin, just halves.

---

The mathematics is not intuitive and what you expect.

Every time the coins in circulation are doubled, the price per coin goes down 50%. That is why going from 6% to 10% is hard, while keeping the price per coin up (~50% dilution). And why going from 10% to 20% is hard (50% dilution).  But why 20% to 10% and everything after that is easy.

A user base can grow 10x or 100x or 10,000x, easily. It can grow exponentially and nearly infinitely. However, the number of coins that will ever be in circulation can only increase 10x from the point that 10% of Skycoin reach circulation.

The key thing also, is that even given constant user base size, the price increases as the distribution of new coins tapers and declines. This is because of capital flow affects (money into the coin vs money out).

---

So to summarize, the market cap is a constant.

Doubling the coins in circulation (doubling the free float), reduces the price per coin to half (halves the price per coin). The market cap however, stays constant.

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August 11, 2017, 03:00:26 AM
Last edit: August 11, 2017, 03:29:27 AM by skycoin
 #3176

Just one doubt, if the ICO is actually getting a response, why aren't the 40BTC+ of sell orders on topia below 0.002 BTC already taken out? Even whales wouldn't waste money. If they want to buy 100 or even 300 BTC worth of sky, they just need to spend another 2 mins extra to save themselves a lot more BTC by buying out the first 40BTC worth from cryptopia. BTC they could use to get even more sky.

Genuine question, have you managed to actually sell much yet in this distribution?

> Even whales wouldn't waste money.

You cannot actually buy Skycoin on topia.

There are caps and its just a mess. The whole coin price is being rigged by one bot, who will pull out 40 btc of sell orders as soon as the price goes up. You cant actually buy the coins.

He buys when price drops, then sells at $4. Then if you try to go above $4, the bot pulls out the sell orders.

>Genuine question, have you managed to actually sell much yet in this distribution?

This was not meant to sell.

The orders would normally start filling when price appreciates to that level.

This was to solve three problems
1> To test the marketing team.
2> New infrastructure test. This is the new OTC bot backend and will eventually be integrated with the exchange trading and wallet. We set price high, because are not ready for large volume and are still handling bug fixes. Like during start of event, the backend failed for send-to-many transactions and later we found out users were not sending a multiple of 0.002 BTC.
3> Whales and small number of people. The ICO does not matter to much to them, because they are going to do OTC anyways.

Marketing Team:

Another very important objective is to use this event to test the marketing team. And see where there are capacity gaps and what is working and what is not working.

We have to keep drilling them, until everything work smoothly. And we have to find out if we are missing skills, or do not have enough people.

They failed completely last two attempts at an event. This time did a bit better, but we still probably only have 50% staffing and they are still uncoordinated and ineffective.

They had two weeks to get ICO site listings up and waited until 4 days before the ICO event to start getting it listed on the ICO websites. However, they did get Skycoin listed on 8 of the 12 ICO websites.

We do not have a full time infographics/vector graphics/marketing person, for producing materials for twitter/telegram/facebook. And that is a major shortcoming we are trying to fill. We have hundreds of info-graphics and technical diagrams that need to be made into production/marketing content.

We have two vector graphics people and they did not invoice or bill hours for a month, meaning no one was using them. So we have +150 infographics and content, but no one on the marketing team was making sure this was produced into something we could distribute on social media or use on the website. So this pipeline needs to be filled out immediately and we need to determine why this is not getting done.

We also have a major documentation gap on the website
- there is no page for skywire
- there is no page for cxo
- there is no page or index for the github repos
- there is no dedicated page for viscript
- there is no dedicated page for the skywire/miner hardware
- there is no dedicated page for the bbs app
- there is no dedicated page and documentation for CX
- etc

So we have assigned the development teams to start making sketches and writing text for pages to go on the website and explain what is done and what is the purpose of each of the components.

Then there is only a single web designer and he is overloaded. He cannot handle the volume of content and changes, so we need to get more than one person.

Translations were quick and went very well for Russia, Chinese, Korean, etc. Our translation pipeline is working very well.

Our twitter was not working until 4 days before the ICO There are now constant tweets.

We still do not have a reddit community and are trying to obtain the sub-reddit, but it is a slow process.

The facebook and twitter ads have not started yet. CoinTelegraph ads have not started yet. None of the ad campaigns were ready by the start of the ICO

We have no video production group/capacity yet. Even through we hired people months ago to do story board and production, they were ineffective. So need to find people able to get this done. However, everyone is telling us that the videos do not matter too much for marketing and are a waste of time/money.

We have no one making ad copy and banner ads. And we need team member for this. It is major bottleneck. The are reusing ad-copy because we do not have a dedicated person creating new ad and banner copy.

However, we did drive a lot of traffic to the project and the traffic volume was good.

The marketing team performance is still only at 20% right now. And has not achieved competency in all the required areas yet. So we are trying to restaff and recruit from the community and fill in the capacity gaps.

Uniform OTC System:

The existing ICO is infrastructure test for a new backend. And still fixing bugs, so is better to set the price very and fix the bugs, then delay. Also test the marketing team.

The backend is working well now.
- we removed CLI exec and used web-rpc for security
- rate limiting and DDoS protection is working well
- we had problems loading 100,000 BTC addresses into electrum and getting it to sync for the watch wallet, so some improvements here
- we fixed a bug where send-to-many transactions were not handled correctly. Now works perfectly
- we have new security measures and offline wallets, improved encryption and wallet handling procedures. None of the online connected computers have any bitcoin private key on them and we are using offline genned addresses completly now.

Then we will add ETH deposits and test that.

Confusion on Website:

There are two major issues
- navigation is confusing and most users cannot even find the ICO page
- some buttons were confusing or were not translated into Chinese and caused mass confusion
- the event page, did not tell people that they had to send a multiple of 0.002 BTC (some people sent 0.0014 or non-multiples of 0.002)

The navigation is being improved now so that is less confusing.

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August 11, 2017, 03:53:50 AM
 #3177

>With the .002 price they are requesting it places skycoin at over $600,000,000 in market cap and that is BS.

No. You are lying again.

Coinmarketcap.com says the market cap is 23 million. You say it is 600 million.

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/skycoin/

Coinmarketcap is only taking into account ~5% of total actual amount of Skycoin available. Although only 5% is available to the public doesn't mean there aren't more coins out there held by the dev team, not saying thats a bad thing. So the actual market cap of all Skycoins out there is actually 600 million.

Just like only a % of shares are publicly trading on exchanges, total market value of the company takes into account all the shares out there, including those held by company employees.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


Pretend, that a load of bread is $1. Pretend that only 1 million dollars exists in the world.

The FED doubles the amount of money in circulation. The price of bread goes to $2.

---

What happens if the number of Skycoin in circulation doubles?

A> The market cap doubles. The price per coin remains constant

B> The price per coin halves.

A or B.

This is important to understand.

There are coins with 300 million valuation or nearly billion dollars and a few over a billion dollars, where the reported free float is 60x higher than the actual free float. People see the market cap at a billion dollars and they think the coin is "worth" billions of dollars, but if they tried to sell the coin they could not get more than 20 million dollars out before the price went to zero.

People coming into this bubble, just see the volume and market cap and say "Other people are pricing this at a billion dollars, so it must be worth a billion dollars". And just buying whatever they see and are familiar with.

There is a lot of room for manipulation and there are a lot of misconceptions about how these market caps are calculated and how the "markets" actually work.

What matters in the long term, is the fundamentals. Everything else can be faked.

The coins that are doing the best are the ones that are most aggressive with the market manipulations.

Its going to be like the dot com bubble looking back, with pets.com trading at $11. People are going to ask why networks with no revenue or reason for people to use them, are priced at billions of dollars, when they have hundred million dollar a year capital outflows from operating/mining costs, which can only be sustained by a speculative bubble.

---

The Skycoin market cap is actually ~25 million. It is not 600 million (yet).

If the number of coins in circulation is doubled, the price per coin will go down by half. The market cap does not go to 600 million.

---

If you ask me, there are only two or three projects with any real chance at all of replacing Ethereum or Bitcoin. The number of projects working on the core technical issues instead of marketing gimmicks is almost zero.

So on long term, if you said the market cap is 600 million, I would say it is under-priced and still cheap.

I think we are going to see a lot of coins in the 20 billion to 80 billion dollar market cap range eventually.

There are no economic fundamentals anchoring coin prices to anything in reality, unlike the dot com bubble, that only reached trillions of dollars.

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August 12, 2017, 02:52:28 PM
 #3178

>With the .002 price they are requesting it places skycoin at over $600,000,000 in market cap and that is BS.

No. You are lying again.

Coinmarketcap.com says the market cap is 23 million. You say it is 600 million.

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/skycoin/

Coinmarketcap is only taking into account ~5% of total actual amount of Skycoin available. Although only 5% is available to the public doesn't mean there aren't more coins out there held by the dev team, not saying thats a bad thing. So the actual market cap of all Skycoins out there is actually 600 million.

Just like only a % of shares are publicly trading on exchanges, total market value of the company takes into account all the shares out there, including those held by company employees.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


Its the same as Bitcoin.

There are existing/issued coins. (ex. 1 million coins exist)

There is a supply or issuance cap (ex. 23 million maximum coins)

There is a tapered and decreasing, relative rate of coin issuance according to a schedule.

---

>So the actual market cap of all Skycoins out there is actually 600 million.

We did multi-agent simulations and modeling of this. It is actually a fallacy/misconception.

Because releasing all the coins, would suppress the market price. If we dumped all 100 million coins RIGHT NOW. The market price would still be 23 million.

If the number of coins in circulation is increased 10x, then the price for each coin declines to 10%. That is because what matters is the per capita capital inflows and coins per user.

Increasing number of coins in circulation, does not increase the market cap. It decreases the price per coin.

So for instance, if we have a 20 million dollar valuation right now. AND we increase the user base size by 30x, the valuation will be 600 million (which is where Qtum is right now).

This is why everyone is making so much money investing in altcoins. The userbases are expanding at an exponential rate (new market), that is faster than the debasement from mining rewards.

If we double the number of coins in circulation, then the market cap is the same. The price per coin, just halves.

---

The mathematics is not intuitive and what you expect.

Every time the coins in circulation are doubled, the price per coin goes down 50%. That is why going from 6% to 10% is hard, while keeping the price per coin up (~50% dilution). And why going from 10% to 20% is hard (50% dilution).  But why 20% to 10% and everything after that is easy.

A user base can grow 10x or 100x or 10,000x, easily. It can grow exponentially and nearly infinitely. However, the number of coins that will ever be in circulation can only increase 10x from the point that 10% of Skycoin reach circulation.

The key thing also, is that even given constant user base size, the price increases as the distribution of new coins tapers and declines. This is because of capital flow affects (money into the coin vs money out).

---

So to summarize, the market cap is a constant.

Doubling the coins in circulation (doubling the free float), reduces the price per coin to half (halves the price per coin). The market cap however, stays constant.

I agree that if you where to release all the coins right now the marketcap will still be around 23million.

But that doesn't change the fact that the current amount of circulation and price is suggesting a 600million marketcap.

Restricting supply is one way of controlling price but that is just not a good practice in my opinion. It is what the greedy diamond industry does to get money from woman who wants shiny things.

I love the concept of the project but with 90% of coins being control by the devs, it doesn't give the community much confidence. I understand that devs need to be rewarded for their efforts but sometimes being less greedy can lead to better adoption and and involvement from the community, therefore better chance of growing this into what your team envision Skycoin to be.

Of course in the end it is up to you to price your coins and you will have a better idea of how much your project is worth.
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August 15, 2017, 02:10:51 PM
 #3179

I really don't get why so many complain about the price?
There are clear options how to buy with offered price.
There are options to buy cheaper using the exchange.
If you want to buy cheaper go and add bid to exchange or wait. So devs would be able to sell to you on your conditions.
If your concern is that by buying on exchange you buy not from devs but from early investors/supporters: now on the exchange, you can see 50k coins for sale, it's 1% from distributed 5mm coins. This is a very clear sign that early investors do continue to support the project. And if some of them want to go out with small gains I'm completely OK with this.

In most ICO you usually don't know what would be results of ICO, here you can predict everything very well. So yes, not a pump and dump project, but steadily growing till some point when it will go exponential (after it would be added to some normal exchange). Somehow it reminds me IOTA project, hidden for long time, without marketing and buzz around it, complex ways to acquire it. Just silent and continuous development.

Most coins now have zero use (except store/transfer of value). Most coins don't even have own code (ETH tokens especially) or code copied from another crypto. Most don't have active development (1-2 developers do some changes couple of times per month). I have seen projects where new "wallet version with security enchantments" is actually ONLY version number change. So why to compare market cap of different coins without taking into account other aspects? Here I see the clear difference between SKY and other projects.

But any way you need to trust devs and their plans (and in coin distribution too). And what I see now is actually this kind of proof from devs that early investors are not hurt by distribution.
Agreed.

We already announced price to media and press releases went out, so could not change price without causing massive confusion.

Also, we ended up being lucky, because it gave us opportunity to find and fix bugs in the ICO back-end infrastructure. We have some minor errors to fix and things that were not logged enough to trace source of error.

So if we has 25,000 orders all at once, it could have been support headache. We did not know insufficient information was logged at the start of the ICO.

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August 15, 2017, 02:27:34 PM
 #3180

>With the .002 price they are requesting it places skycoin at over $600,000,000 in market cap and that is BS.

No. You are lying again.

Coinmarketcap.com says the market cap is 23 million. You say it is 600 million.

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/skycoin/

Coinmarketcap is only taking into account ~5% of total actual amount of Skycoin available. Although only 5% is available to the public doesn't mean there aren't more coins out there held by the dev team, not saying thats a bad thing. So the actual market cap of all Skycoins out there is actually 600 million.

Just like only a % of shares are publicly trading on exchanges, total market value of the company takes into account all the shares out there, including those held by company employees.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


Its the same as Bitcoin.

There are existing/issued coins. (ex. 1 million coins exist)

There is a supply or issuance cap (ex. 23 million maximum coins)

There is a tapered and decreasing, relative rate of coin issuance according to a schedule.

---

>So the actual market cap of all Skycoins out there is actually 600 million.

We did multi-agent simulations and modeling of this. It is actually a fallacy/misconception.

Because releasing all the coins, would suppress the market price. If we dumped all 100 million coins RIGHT NOW. The market price would still be 23 million.

If the number of coins in circulation is increased 10x, then the price for each coin declines to 10%. That is because what matters is the per capita capital inflows and coins per user.

Increasing number of coins in circulation, does not increase the market cap. It decreases the price per coin.

So for instance, if we have a 20 million dollar valuation right now. AND we increase the user base size by 30x, the valuation will be 600 million (which is where Qtum is right now).

This is why everyone is making so much money investing in altcoins. The userbases are expanding at an exponential rate (new market), that is faster than the debasement from mining rewards.

If we double the number of coins in circulation, then the market cap is the same. The price per coin, just halves.

---

The mathematics is not intuitive and what you expect.

Every time the coins in circulation are doubled, the price per coin goes down 50%. That is why going from 6% to 10% is hard, while keeping the price per coin up (~50% dilution). And why going from 10% to 20% is hard (50% dilution).  But why 20% to 10% and everything after that is easy.

A user base can grow 10x or 100x or 10,000x, easily. It can grow exponentially and nearly infinitely. However, the number of coins that will ever be in circulation can only increase 10x from the point that 10% of Skycoin reach circulation.

The key thing also, is that even given constant user base size, the price increases as the distribution of new coins tapers and declines. This is because of capital flow affects (money into the coin vs money out).

---

So to summarize, the market cap is a constant.

Doubling the coins in circulation (doubling the free float), reduces the price per coin to half (halves the price per coin). The market cap however, stays constant.

I agree that if you where to release all the coins right now the marketcap will still be around 23million.

But that doesn't change the fact that the current amount of circulation and price is suggesting a 600million marketcap.

Restricting supply is one way of controlling price but that is just not a good practice in my opinion. It is what the greedy diamond industry does to get money from woman who wants shiny things.

I love the concept of the project but with 90% of coins being control by the devs, it doesn't give the community much confidence. I understand that devs need to be rewarded for their efforts but sometimes being less greedy can lead to better adoption and and involvement from the community, therefore better chance of growing this into what your team envision Skycoin to be.

Of course in the end it is up to you to price your coins and you will have a better idea of how much your project is worth.

We dont set the market cap. It is set by the market.

When we get to 30% distribution, then most of these issues will be resolved.

>Restricting supply is one way of controlling price but that is just not a good practice in my opinion.

Skycoin has a lot of buy and hold people. Less than 1% for the distributed coins are trading the on the exchanges. That means people are holding.

This means there is long term confidence and expectation of "an explosion of value".

However, it also means that liquidity is thin (you cannot buy many coins without the price exploding to insane levels) and volume is low (if everyone is hoarding the coin, few people are actively trading on it).

Remember what happened to ByteBalls and IOTA. Byteball was $0.10 and exploded to $700 in less than three months. Even during extremely heavy distribution and coin drops (which Skycoin is not doing).

Then once ByteBalls was at $700 people were screaming "FUCK" out their windows and "I should have bought that" etc...

The price explosion happened after the distribution rounds finished (which were preannounced and to the Bitcoin holders). Then after coin distribution/taper ended, then consolidation and price increase happened.

The reason ByteBalls appreciated so quickly, I think was the distribution taper. For Skycoin that occurs at 30% distribution after the coin time lock.

===

We could also try a ByteBalls style distribution, now that we have the sky-messanger bot. We could drop 1 to 5% of the total coins, proportionally to existing BTC/ETH holders proportional to number of coins that participated in the event.

You would have to register a bitcoin address (which must have never been used before a given block) from your wallet, then you must hold BTC in the address during the lock/drop period. Then we add up all the Bitcoin across the registered addresses and do drop.

I think, maybe we could do that around the 20% distribution mark, as a possible distribution event. And would help get to the 30% distribution and the time lock, where the distribution taper falls off.

Doing a 1% Byteballs event makes sense in first drop as a test to see the reaction.

It may make sense to do this at the 10% or 15% distribution point also.

That would be a good experiment.

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