Bitcoin Forum
December 10, 2016, 10:24:17 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.13.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Freicoin: bitcoin with demurrage  (Read 28760 times)
fox19891989
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 840



View Profile
April 26, 2013, 05:19:32 PM
 #101

I hold some and I hope I will be rich
1481408657
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481408657

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481408657
Reply with quote  #2

1481408657
Report to moderator
1481408657
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481408657

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481408657
Reply with quote  #2

1481408657
Report to moderator
1481408657
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481408657

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481408657
Reply with quote  #2

1481408657
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1481408657
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481408657

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481408657
Reply with quote  #2

1481408657
Report to moderator
myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
April 26, 2013, 05:21:31 PM
 #102

I hold some and I hope I will be rich
^^^^ doesn't understand what "demurrage" means.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
liberty90
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 88



View Profile
April 26, 2013, 08:51:10 PM
 #103

I will never use that thing. Early adopters must be rewarded.

TimJBenham
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252


View Profile
April 27, 2013, 03:12:43 AM
 #104

I will never use that thing. Early adopters must be rewarded.

Maybe it needs to be like a pyramid scam where the demurrage gets paid to the people who signed up ahead of you.  Wink

You are a warlord in the outskirts of the known world struggling to establish a kingdom in the wild lands.
jtimon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


View Profile WWW
April 27, 2013, 01:31:16 PM
 #105

Well, I don't think there will be an iphone 34 or that anyone should buy any drm iphone.

In any case, ok, deflation doesn't fully stop consumption but it does halt investments.

Say you have 10,000 btc and are considering investing them on building a cell-phone factory, for example.
If you have 10% annual deflation, the factory must yield more than 10% (more than 1000 btc annually) for the investment to make sense.

Just saving you don't grow the economy, you need to invest what you don't consume (savings) in order to make that happen.
An economy without investments actually contracts, since real capital (like Freicoin and Gesell's free-money but unlike capital-money) perishes.
I think my claim "deflation reduces money velocity" isn't particularly crazy or controversial among economists.

That is correct. I do not grok why it matters. Why does money hoarding matter? it is not a real asset. Hoarding money is not like hoarding copper or food that could be productively employed or consumed. You cannot build something out of bitcoin or eat it.  Furthermore it is not necessarily the case that reducing economic activity is bad. Is it better to pump petroleum out of the ground as fast as possible or to hoard some of it? Some resources are finite and their consumption should not be blindly stimulated.

Because hoarding is a non-explicit loan contract, but very strange.
When much value joins, it rises. When value "cashes out", it drops in
price. So the conservative saver is not "storing value" at all. You
can't just "store value" like that. If you want to travel to the
future, you need a counter-party to travel back to the present, to
take your cash from your hands. You can't just trust-less and
risk-free store "value".

Unless of course you have a bank you can trust to manage risk for you.
But I've heard those are missing, they've turned into paper minters.
Because bank's credit is equivalent to state cash by law.
Meaning...they don't really hold any risk and have no real incentive
to manage it properly.

Value can't be intrinsic. People value, only then things are worth.
Marx was wrong. Cash is a "let's all we trust this so we have no
counter-party risk for trust-less exchange", and it's not its fault to
change in value, you just shouldn't rely on cash for "storing value"
or even as a unit of exchange.
So called value is not only relative but immaterial.

The problem is that without demurrage, the medium of exchange and
lending are coupled. The fault's not on cash, it's on basic interest
of everlasting cash.

With everlasting cash, why would you lend at risk-free 0%?
Adding deflation, why would you discount the inflation premium (which
is negative for deflation) if you're the lender? You can apply it to
a certain extend, but certainly you will never lend on invest
capital-cash below nominal 0%, even if there's 20% deflation.

When money is lend, the saver doesn't consume in the present so that
the borrower can invest to be able to generate that value for the
lender in the future.

But when cash is hoarded, what's taken from consumption is not put
into investments. What does that hoarding then?

When capital accumulation and competition naturally lower yields and
interests (signaling an increased efficiency and the fulfillment of
the demand), some savers stop lending and prefer to hoard.
Even if the risk free interest rates are still positive, the free
insurance that represents a pile of wildcard cash to cover
uncertainties or take advantages of unpredictable future events is
preferable to low interests.

An increase in hoarding produces deflation, since less money
circulating needs to move the same wares. That makes lending even
less attractive, creating a positive feedback loop. The more
deflation, the better it is for the saver to hoard over lend, until
eventually the spiral stops.
The first hoarders in this self-fulfilling prophecy can now "cash
out" (to real capital instead of capital-cash) their huge gains. 
Note that many investments that would have had positive yields aren't
made during this deflationary period.
When the deflationary artificial scarcity of wares caused by the
lacks of investment rises consuming good prices in relation to
producing goods (real capital), interest rise again and savings can
be lent instead of hoarded again and profitable investments get
financed again.

A common alternative to deflation as the tool to restore the scarcity
needed to cover the basic interest rate is war. With more destroyed
buildings the remaining ones can yield more with a higher
rent/building_price ratio that has resulted from destruction.
The only equilibrium here is that capitalists must receive the basic
interest rent on all their real capital AND capital-money, how that's
achieved it's not important.

Gold is the first implementation of cash, before there was only
credit and barter. Later we've seen state-cash, but that's much more
complicated since it has a managed supply. That would be the so
called "debt-free" money. Today we have state and banks credit that
works like cash by law. The state enforces it but leaves the
signoriage to the banks.
Now we crypto-cash.

But all these new forms of cash and bitcoin have chosen to maintain
the design flaw that was mandatory for gold. Make it possible to the
holders to freeze the cash for as long as they want with now cost. All
of them have chosen to ensure price cycles and rents for the master
capitalists (the owner of production goods or medium of exchange that
enjoy a guarantied rent).

Freicoin in the other hand has chosen to tell the holders of the
medium of exchange to preferably save elsewhere and invest or lend
what you don't want to spend in the near future. Thus FRC loans at
risk-free 0% make sense. And -4% rates make sense with 4% deflation.

I will never use that thing. Early adopters must be rewarded.

Why?

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
rik8119
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 192

CEO WINC e. V.


View Profile
May 08, 2013, 07:04:23 AM
 #106

I hold some and I hope I will be rich
^^^^ doesn't understand what "demurrage" means.

It is hard to understand in detail but it is well described, so just search in google (maybe plus Bernard Lietaer).

So you want to tell us, that you never ever bought a TV, a cellphone, a computer, a printer etc. because in one year you can get for the same money more value? I don't believe you! If you have a stable deflation of let's say 2% in a year, you have nothing to threaten the merchant. "Haha, now I wait and you can't sell and will gain losses. Now sell it to me for a lower price. You have to!" vs. "Haha, buy it now or you have to wait forever, because you will get more value for the same money forever."

Maybe sounds litte confusing but that is exactly what happens right now. All the money is beeing hoarded and there is not enough money left in the economy (what is the reason of the recent crisis). This was exactly the same in the great depression. There were enough goods but no one had the money exept a few that had more than they ever could spend.

Money to save is a wounderful thing! Why not save money for bad times? But to use the same money for trade is nearly ridiculous. Its like using a Hammer to lumber a tree. You can do it but its so much harder.

Another argument against demurrage is that nobody would accept payments in that currency? In my opinion this is not true i know enough handcrafters that make beautiful things with high quality but they cant sell it because there is not enough money in the economy. Those people would be grateful because they are dependent on people that spend their money. So dont worry in the next krisis or maybe the one following there will be a market we just have to wait.

And: Inflation is NOT like demurrage! Over all it seems to have the same effect BUT: Inflation is mostly occuring the product Level. Meaning you get the same payment every month but the prices are rising (everybody could confirm that). Demurrage is just to keep the money running like the blood in our veins (selery and prices are stable).

@Founders of Freicoin:

I bow to your wisdom and knowledge!

This currency has the potential to change the world at a very high scale to produce long lasting peace and increase wealth in an amount we are not able to imagine right now.

Rik

 


Demurrage - the easiest way to a human society.
myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
May 08, 2013, 07:16:13 AM
 #107

I hold some and I hope I will be rich
^^^^ doesn't understand what "demurrage" means.

It is hard to understand in detail but it is well described, so just search in google (maybe plus Bernard Lietaer).
I think, perhaps, you misunderstand. I was saying that the gentlebeing I quoted, fox19891989, does not understand the concept of demurrage, for s/he is holding onto a currency designed to trickle away from those who grip it the hardest, in the hopes of becoming rich. (rather like holding on to a handful of sand hoping to find a diamond in your palm when you open it)

Money to save is a wounderful thing! Why not save money for bad times? But to use the same money for trade is nearly ridiculous. Its like using a Hammer to lumber a tree. You can do it but its so much harder.
And now, I think, it is my turn to not understand. Why would you not want to use a currency that is a good store of value to trade with? Certainly your trading partner will value more highly a currency which keeps or increases it's value over time, as opposed to something he'll have to get rid of as quickly as possible.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
rik8119
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 192

CEO WINC e. V.


View Profile
May 08, 2013, 07:28:59 AM
 #108

And now, I think, it is my turn to not understand. Why would you not want to use a currency that is a good store of value to trade with? Certainly your trading partner will value more highly a currency which keeps or increases it's value over time, as opposed to something he'll have to get rid of as quickly as possible.

 Wink Well, because in the end those who are able to save money will be the ones owning all the money and there is no money left for trade (what is in my opinion the main reason for our world wide crisis). You could easily reconsrtuct this scenario by playing monopoly. In the end one person has everything and all the others nothing - the same basic principle.

Demurrage - the easiest way to a human society.
rik8119
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 192

CEO WINC e. V.


View Profile
May 08, 2013, 07:31:59 AM
 #109

Just imagine you loose some of the streets over time - you could play on forever, just by a very small change in rules.

lol and yes i misunderstood your first post

Demurrage - the easiest way to a human society.
Impaler
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 392



View Profile
May 08, 2013, 08:36:27 AM
 #110

Money to save is a wounderful thing! Why not save money for bad times? But to use the same money for trade is nearly ridiculous. Its like using a Hammer to lumber a tree. You can do it but its so much harder.
And now, I think, it is my turn to not understand. Why would you not want to use a currency that is a good store of value to trade with? Certainly your trading partner will value more highly a currency which keeps or increases it's value over time, as opposed to something he'll have to get rid of as quickly as possible.

A merchant will generally have a great deal of turn over in their money due to the nature of business, they have to pay expenses like rent and salary, get more product etc, so to them the cost of demurrage is actually very modest because it comes as a percentage of they working funds not a percentage of gross revenue.  This is also why sales taxes hurt business so much because they come our of gross revenue which is very large compared to profits, any business would prefer to pay 5% on profits rather then 5% on revenue.

Deflationary currency forces merchants to lower their prices because demand is reduced, the merchant have to offer very attractive bargains to get the potential customer to part with the currency (or sell black-market goods at huge markups).  But the merchant now must spend the revenue immediately to cover costs, acquire new product etc, so the merchant dose not enjoy the benefits of deflation because they are not in a position to hold the money and wait for deflation gain.

Lastly the potential for a low interest loan to finance a business with is also a major issue.  If a merchant can even get a loan under deflationary currency his debt burden is growing constantly and his profitability must be very high to pay back the loan.  If the option exists to take a loan in demurrage currency that loan will be at a near zero rate (some risk premium is legitimate) and the merchant will need to acquire that demurrage currency to repay with, and this acquisition is much easier both because customers willingly part with the money, but also because the real burden of the loan is not increased by deflation.

Most of the confusion your question embodies comes from projecting onto the merchant the situation and mindset of the standard BTC hoarder.  The hoarder dose not have a turnover of goods or overhead costs being paid in deflationary currency (any overhead for a miner is Fiat), they are instead in a position to sit on money and reap the benefits of deflation.  A real business is in exactly the inverse situation so their motivation is reversed and they prefer demurrage.

We as coin-holders if thinking shortsightedly would want deflation of course, but because all the material things we enjoy and consume are produced by business and investment then the truly rational thing is to prefer demurrage currency, it is the prisoners dilemma ware the seemingly individually rational behavior (always snitch) produces the worst outcome, but when viewed from a macro perspective the best solution is to do the opposite.

FRC:  18mAGEto3xZzfKNJPwsDVA5c2Fk5Za3nbs  http://www.freicoin.org  IRC:  Freenode #freicoin
myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
May 08, 2013, 01:34:37 PM
 #111

A merchant will generally have a great deal of turn over in their money due to the nature of business, they have to pay expenses like rent and salary, get more product etc, so to them the cost of demurrage is actually very modest because it comes as a percentage of they working funds not a percentage of gross revenue.  This is also why sales taxes hurt business so much because they come our of gross revenue which is very large compared to profits, any business would prefer to pay 5% on profits rather then 5% on revenue.
Sure, and any business would also rather pay 0% on any of that.

Deflationary currency forces merchants to lower their prices because demand is reduced, the merchant have to offer very attractive bargains to get the potential customer to part with the currency (or sell black-market goods at huge markups).  But the merchant now must spend the revenue immediately to cover costs, acquire new product etc, so the merchant dose not enjoy the benefits of deflation because they are not in a position to hold the money and wait for deflation gain.
So, then, you're saying that demurrage penalizes the merchant for no good reason? Isn't the stated purpose to ensure that velocity is maintained? If it's maintained without it, what use is it?

Lastly the potential for a low interest loan to finance a business with is also a major issue.  If a merchant can even get a loan under deflationary currency his debt burden is growing constantly and his profitability must be very high to pay back the loan.  If the option exists to take a loan in demurrage currency that loan will be at a near zero rate (some risk premium is legitimate) and the merchant will need to acquire that demurrage currency to repay with, and this acquisition is much easier both because customers willingly part with the money, but also because the real burden of the loan is not increased by deflation.
Why do you assume that debt is more beneficial than savings? Isn't debt how the world got into the dire straights it's in now? Hair of the dog is not the answer, my friend.

Most of the confusion your question embodies comes from projecting onto the merchant the situation and mindset of the standard BTC hoarder.  The hoarder dose not have a turnover of goods or overhead costs being paid in deflationary currency (any overhead for a miner is Fiat), they are instead in a position to sit on money and reap the benefits of deflation.  A real business is in exactly the inverse situation so their motivation is reversed and they prefer demurrage.
Somehow, I doubt they would prefer demurrage to not losing a portion of their proceeds in any way.

We as coin-holders if thinking shortsightedly would want deflation of course, but because all the material things we enjoy and consume are produced by business and investment then the truly rational thing is to prefer demurrage currency, it is the prisoners dilemma ware the seemingly individually rational behavior (always snitch) produces the worst outcome, but when viewed from a macro perspective the best solution is to do the opposite.
I don't know about you, but I prefer being able to save my money. I like to keep it when I want to keep it, and spend it when I want to spend it. Money needs to be a store of value, not just a medium of exchange.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
ASICSRUS
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


Expert Computer Geek


View Profile
September 20, 2013, 05:31:19 PM
 #112

FRC = "hot potato" coin !!!  Grin

_?_do you have a real time freidcoin demurrage chart?...what about physical FRCs with a timer? LOL Cool

✰ If You Risk Nothing, You Risk Everything | PrimeDice.com | The New Way To Roll | *Thread*

<3<3:::LOVE^YOUR^NEIGHBOR!!!:::|+i|_33+(((PLEASE)))====>Donate if you like me!~> 157YEcD4WQ9UbhZ7NSC2FpuaYfxHe3JgF2
ElectricMucus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1540


Drama Junkie


View Profile
September 20, 2013, 05:34:35 PM
 #113

LOL Cool

indeed

http://www.cryptocoincharts.info/period-charts.php?period=alltime&resolution=day&pair=frc-btc&market=vircurex

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
ASICSRUS
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


Expert Computer Geek


View Profile
September 20, 2013, 05:46:24 PM
 #114


thanks bud tho that's only the PPC(price per coin) chart~\//\~
====>ya what i'm looking for a historical chart that shows the demurrage coin-kill rate in relation to friedcoins' PPC! Cheesy tia!

✰ If You Risk Nothing, You Risk Everything | PrimeDice.com | The New Way To Roll | *Thread*

<3<3:::LOVE^YOUR^NEIGHBOR!!!:::|+i|_33+(((PLEASE)))====>Donate if you like me!~> 157YEcD4WQ9UbhZ7NSC2FpuaYfxHe3JgF2
bitcoinBull
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 826


rippleFanatic


View Profile
September 20, 2013, 05:53:12 PM
 #115


Where can I go to short this thing?

College of Bucking Bulls Knowledge
ASICSRUS
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


Expert Computer Geek


View Profile
September 20, 2013, 05:55:05 PM
 #116


Bermuda triangle ~ Toronto somewhere how many you want? we will skin you alive LOL +1

✰ If You Risk Nothing, You Risk Everything | PrimeDice.com | The New Way To Roll | *Thread*

<3<3:::LOVE^YOUR^NEIGHBOR!!!:::|+i|_33+(((PLEASE)))====>Donate if you like me!~> 157YEcD4WQ9UbhZ7NSC2FpuaYfxHe3JgF2
ElectricMucus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1540


Drama Junkie


View Profile
September 20, 2013, 06:11:52 PM
 #117


thanks bud tho that's only the PPC(price per coin) chart~\//\~
====>ya what i'm looking for a historical chart that shows the demurrage coin-kill rate in relation to friedcoins' PPC! Cheesy tia!

Not as bad as a 80% crony tax on mining.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
jtimon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


View Profile WWW
September 20, 2013, 06:47:16 PM
 #118

thanks bud tho that's only the PPC(price per coin) chart~\//\~
====>ya what i'm looking for a historical chart that shows the demurrage coin-kill rate in relation to friedcoins' PPC! Cheesy tia!

There's no charts because that's a constant: 2^(-20)% per block or a little bit less than annual 5%.
The demurrage FEE is constant over time.
What is "destroyed" increases with the total supply, until the equlibrium is reached at 100 Million FRC.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
ElectricMucus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1540


Drama Junkie


View Profile
September 20, 2013, 06:50:50 PM
 #119

thanks bud tho that's only the PPC(price per coin) chart~\//\~
====>ya what i'm looking for a historical chart that shows the demurrage coin-kill rate in relation to friedcoins' PPC! Cheesy tia!

There's no charts because that's a constant: 2^(-20)% per block or a little bit less than annual 5%.
The demurrage FEE is constant over time.
What is "destroyed" increases with the total supply, until the equlibrium is reached at 100 Million FRC.


equilibrium at 0

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
ASICSRUS
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


Expert Computer Geek


View Profile
September 20, 2013, 07:04:52 PM
 #120

thanks bud tho that's only the PPC(price per coin) chart~\//\~
====>ya what i'm looking for a historical chart that shows the demurrage coin-kill rate in relation to friedcoins' PPC! Cheesy tia!

There's no charts because that's a constant: 2^(-20)% per block or a little bit less than annual 5%.
The demurrage FEE is constant over time.
What is "destroyed" increases with the total supply, until the equlibrium is reached at 100 Million FRC.


~20 year shelf life then?  Grin
/\not that bad lol

✰ If You Risk Nothing, You Risk Everything | PrimeDice.com | The New Way To Roll | *Thread*

<3<3:::LOVE^YOUR^NEIGHBOR!!!:::|+i|_33+(((PLEASE)))====>Donate if you like me!~> 157YEcD4WQ9UbhZ7NSC2FpuaYfxHe3JgF2
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!