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Author Topic: 8th Alt coin thread. Or what to do now that asics are all over the place.  (Read 78286 times)
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July 24, 2018, 02:27:12 AM
 #681

My small take:

I think what is really biting TSMC is the fact that nvidia screwed up and thought they could milk the 10 series for more than they could imagine;    instead of holding to their usual product release strategy they attempted to milk it....  Th process on the dies was already down.   Its usually cheaper for a second batch of chips.  So;  why did the price keep going up?    That's right.... "artificial inflation" due to "demand".

it all backfired.  and they are hurting TSMC by pushing back and trying to recoup on their stupid mistake;  instead of chalking it as a loss and moving forward.

If they had taken that mistake, and:
1) released a 1080ti with less ram
or
2) sold the overstocked chips at a cut-rate price to sell and drain inventory for the next round

TSMC would have not had such a huge problem. (this aside from the fact that they must plan for the eventuality of these problems in their business model)



In the end;


All of it.... is people fighting to have the biggest slice of the pie.   Some people gotta lose.... and when you risk it big, you can loose it big.

us peons;  just get to ride the waves.


sums it up pretty well lol

Unfortunately waters continue to look worse and worse, these ETHASH ASICs are going to squeeze every last drop out of GPU mining profitability. I believe people consistently overlook how much of the GPU mining ecosystem revolves around ETH mining. ETH mining profits go down -> some miners will go elsewhere and drop profits on everything else

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July 24, 2018, 06:10:37 AM
 #682

fucking asics makers ruining everything, thank god for x16r
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July 24, 2018, 08:03:49 AM
 #683

My small take:

I think what is really biting TSMC is the fact that nvidia screwed up and thought they could milk the 10 series for more than they could imagine;    instead of holding to their usual product release strategy they attempted to milk it....  Th process on the dies was already down.   Its usually cheaper for a second batch of chips.  So;  why did the price keep going up?    That's right.... "artificial inflation" due to "demand".

it all backfired.  and they are hurting TSMC by pushing back and trying to recoup on their stupid mistake;  instead of chalking it as a loss and moving forward.

If they had taken that mistake, and:
1) released a 1080ti with less ram
or
2) sold the overstocked chips at a cut-rate price to sell and drain inventory for the next round

TSMC would have not had such a huge problem. (this aside from the fact that they must plan for the eventuality of these problems in their business model)



In the end;


All of it.... is people fighting to have the biggest slice of the pie.   Some people gotta lose.... and when you risk it big, you can loose it big.

us peons;  just get to ride the waves.

Pretty much spot on.  I miss October November December of 2017 and Jan of 2018

I made  more coin in those 4 months then the previous 24 months.

Asic companies went after gpus. = stupid
Nvidia pushed a lot of non gaming cards = stupid

And they pretty much hurt the game big time.

The game only works well when gpus do well.  Simple reason is the gear adaption is widespread.

Gamers do mine as a rebate on gear.  So if gpus can turn a profit many people have interest .

Kill it off system crashes.

Same thing happened in 2014 ltc was smacking hot.  Asics were built and both btc and ltc crashed.

For now I am bored. The solar end is bogged down in red tape and delays. So I can’t use lots of excess gear.l have six idle s9s and 9 idle l3+

So slow it is boring as heck.

Getting a new bathroom remodel paying a guy hope it works out.



But would anyone think bitmain would have less efficient gear the innosilicon in every category?

I am pretty sure last June 2017 was more profitable than the last quarter of 2017.

I remember with a single RX 470 you could pull in $7 daily with ETH and $2 daily with SC. The other coins like ZEC were pulling in crazy >$10 day with GPUs like the 1080Ti.

Towards the end of the year when BTC and ETH went bonkers to $20K and $1400, respectivately the difficulty was already crazy high and profits were high but not as high as June 2017.

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July 24, 2018, 11:19:49 AM
 #684

My small take:

I think what is really biting TSMC is the fact that nvidia screwed up and thought they could milk the 10 series for more than they could imagine;    instead of holding to their usual product release strategy they attempted to milk it....  Th process on the dies was already down.   Its usually cheaper for a second batch of chips.  So;  why did the price keep going up?    That's right.... "artificial inflation" due to "demand".

it all backfired.  and they are hurting TSMC by pushing back and trying to recoup on their stupid mistake;  instead of chalking it as a loss and moving forward.

If they had taken that mistake, and:
1) released a 1080ti with less ram
or
2) sold the overstocked chips at a cut-rate price to sell and drain inventory for the next round

TSMC would have not had such a huge problem. (this aside from the fact that they must plan for the eventuality of these problems in their business model)



In the end;


All of it.... is people fighting to have the biggest slice of the pie.   Some people gotta lose.... and when you risk it big, you can loose it big.

us peons;  just get to ride the waves.

Pretty much spot on.  I miss October November December of 2017 and Jan of 2018

I made  more coin in those 4 months then the previous 24 months.

Asic companies went after gpus. = stupid
Nvidia pushed a lot of non gaming cards = stupid

And they pretty much hurt the game big time.

The game only works well when gpus do well.  Simple reason is the gear adaption is widespread.

Gamers do mine as a rebate on gear.  So if gpus can turn a profit many people have interest .

Kill it off system crashes.

Same thing happened in 2014 ltc was smacking hot.  Asics were built and both btc and ltc crashed.

For now I am bored. The solar end is bogged down in red tape and delays. So I can’t use lots of excess gear.l have six idle s9s and 9 idle l3+

So slow it is boring as heck.

Getting a new bathroom remodel paying a guy hope it works out.



But would anyone think bitmain would have less efficient gear the innosilicon in every category?

I am pretty sure last June 2017 was more profitable than the last quarter of 2017.

I remember with a single RX 470 you could pull in $7 daily with ETH and $2 daily with SC. The other coins like ZEC were pulling in crazy >$10 day with GPUs like the 1080Ti.

Towards the end of the year when BTC and ETH went bonkers to $20K and $1400, respectivately the difficulty was already crazy high and profits were high but not as high as June 2017.

I was not ramped up fully in June  but by sept /oct I was.

remember for me  in the summer the power cost  in the garage is 18 cents.

in oct it is 10 cents.  so i timed full ramp up for sept.


btw btc is over 8200 this morning
and BTG  is over 31

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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July 24, 2018, 12:02:08 PM
Merited by vapourminer (1)
 #685

Hello
I have been following this thread for a while
I administrate several asic farms and GPU farms, I own GPU farms.

the thing is easy ,as a general rule (it goes up and down obviously)
Asics require 2X to 2.5X more power consumption that GPU at the same profitability ratio.
Asics usually costs half of what a GPU rig costs at the same profitability ratio.

so in order, lets say, to produce 5 USD/day youll need 1 Rig of GPUs NVIDIA that will consume 650W or an asic that consumes 1600W

and yes the cost of the GPU rig is probably twice the cost of the ASIC.

but remember, power is everything, power determines how big can you go, how much can you expand
rent a place its easy, cooling it's hard but doable once you learn how the air dynamics works.
power....... it is another matter

you cannot request a: let's say 500KW in a house, the power company will refuse, it will request you to present the proper papers, as a company, since a house cannot use that level of power, as a company you need to exist as such, and pay taxes and all,and even so you still need permissions from government explaining what are you gonna do with all that power.

Anything above 300KW will probably require you to have your own high voltage transformer that will probably cost close to 100K USD plus instalation and proper certifications that takes a lot of time and money to do.

so, unless you plan to have only a very few asics in you small flat, if you want to go big, the only way is maximum power efficiency, and that it's not ASICS, it's GPU, do the math, buy both if you wan't and compare profitability vs power.

most people I know, got tired of GPU because they are difficult to configure, yes they are, but right now NVIDIA 1080Ti and AMD VEGA are the the most efficient GPUs in the market, it takes a lot of effort to make them work at maximum efficiency, but it worth it, and allows you pack a lot more of production in the same place and power capacity than will allow you with asics.

remember, power it is your ceiling , not money, power capacity is what tells you how high can you go.
cheers
indkt.


BTC addr: 1vTGnFgaM2WJjswwmbj6N2AQBWcHfimSc
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July 24, 2018, 12:28:22 PM
 #686

yeah  the tighter the margins the more important power becomes


2e9af1c92907c813



edf2d63cdf0b6275ead22c9e6d66aa8ea31dc0ccb367fad2e7c08a25

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July 24, 2018, 12:46:42 PM
 #687

I just received 1 x E3 that I bought for 800$ awhile back.

Should I use it or sell it?

The label says "190MH"


yeah  the tighter the margins the more important power becomes


2e9af1c92907c813



edf2d63cdf0b6275ead22c9e6d66aa8ea31dc0ccb367fad2e7c08a25

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July 24, 2018, 01:06:25 PM
Last edit: July 24, 2018, 01:20:02 PM by philipma1957
 #688

I just received 1 x E3 that I bought for 800$ awhile back.

Should I use it or sell it?

The label says "190MH"


yeah  the tighter the margins the more important power becomes


2e9af1c92907c813



edf2d63cdf0b6275ead22c9e6d66aa8ea31dc0ccb367fad2e7c08a25

It is a good question  I would sell it.  You can get 1100-1200 easy for it.  a certain profit

now to all  innosilicon t2 turbo  should do 18th at 1350 watts
bitmain's response


s9i is now 564

https://shop.bitmain.com/product/detail?pid=000201807231512494571A78yEi20637

Bitmain is simply selling gear cheaper and cheaper.

No one knows how much gear they can build.  they could be able to sell 20,000 s9i's at 500 = 10,000,000 usd and 280 ph goes on network

they dropped the eth price  down to 1350 today
still well above the 800 you paid.

there is a war going on here bitmain just lowers price on gear to fight off innosilicon efficiency

take the profit with a sale for 1200

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July 24, 2018, 01:24:31 PM
 #689

fucking asics makers ruining everything, thank god for x16r

does raven have more exchanges?  I have a cryptobridge  I would like a few more exchanges

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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July 24, 2018, 01:38:48 PM
 #690

fucking asics makers ruining everything, thank god for x16r

does raven have more exchanges?  I have a cryptobridge  I would like a few more exchanges

I see 5

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/ravencoin/#markets

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July 24, 2018, 01:50:36 PM
 #691

fucking asics makers ruining everything, thank god for x16r

does raven have more exchanges?  I have a cryptobridge  I would like a few more exchanges

I see 5

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/ravencoin/#markets

yeah but I can't use


 https://www.qbtc.com/   daily total trades of 3,400,000 usd  pretty sure they are in China and won't let me join

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

https://crypto-bridge.org/  daily total trades of 663,000 usd is the one I have

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

these are really small



https://tradeogre.com/ daily trade total of under 180,000 and not sure where they are based
https://nanex.co/    daily trade total of under 75,000  and not sure where they are based
https://cryptohub.online/ daily trade total of under 24,000 and not sure where they are based

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July 24, 2018, 05:42:05 PM
 #692


right now innosilicon beats them with every single piece of gear in terms of efficiency

Innosilicon is on 14/16 nm where Bitmain is still at 28 nm on most of those "higher efficiency" pieces of gear, if not all.

It's telling that Innosilicon never bought the A3 to market (14/16 nm SHA256 miner that they HAD announced around the same time they announced the A4) - folks I know with connections have stated that it was because the A3 was NOT going to be comparable on efficiency to the S9, which is in line with everything else Innosilicon has released in the last 4 years or so.

It's also saying a lot that they only JUST RECENTLY finally managed to match the S9 with their new Terminator 2 unit - which is probably too little too late for them.

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July 24, 2018, 05:43:50 PM
 #693

Sometimes you get complacent when you become the big dog. No longer hungry. No longer innovating. Bitmain is raking in so much they just stopped innovating. With things the way they are, they might ease out of their slumber and try to cobble something together. Who knows.

 Can't "innovate" when your state-of-the-art product is already on the current "industry best" production node - which is WHY they have not released anything better than the S9 and probably won't for at least another year, no new node with significant performance upgrade has any capasity AVAILABLE to them, and it takes many months to a year to design a new chip on state-of-the-art nodes.

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July 24, 2018, 05:51:02 PM
 #694

Miners are very price sensitive and inno needs better marketing (no f-g $10K items, OK?).

This. They needed to have an A9 mini that's 1/5 the hash for 1/5 the price.
Bitmain was smart to do the Z9 mini for 2k at launch, rather than a big Z9 for 8k.

It means a lot psychologically, I was on the trigger for batch 1 A9, but was worried the A9 will break and skipped it.

Bitmain is selling quite a few D3 units (to use a specific example) to folks that CAN'T AFFORD 5x of the much more expensive (abet much better efficiency) Innosilicon unit.
A lot of miners don't HAVE $10,000 around to spend on miners in one purchace - and customs gets a LOT pickier about "large orders" like that as well.



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July 24, 2018, 05:52:48 PM
 #695


remember, power it is your ceiling , not money, power capacity is what tells you how high can you go.


Only if you HAVE enough money to get close to that ceiling.

In some cases, money IS the limit.


I'm no longer legendary just in my own mind!
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July 24, 2018, 05:56:23 PM
 #696

The main reasons I won't even consider the Innosilicon T2 are:

 1) Minimum order size prices it WAY out of my reach.
 2) It's more efficient than the S9, but the cost is MUCH higher per hash - much more so than the small gain in efficiency.
 3) I can make more for the amount of $$$$ invested by getting other gear (that I CAN afford to get).

 4 through about 1000) I don't think it will make enough to pay for itself before the first of the 7/10nm generations miners hit the market and drive it into UNPROFITABILITY - even at MY low electric rate.


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July 24, 2018, 06:12:06 PM
 #697

Hello
I have been following this thread for a while
I administrate several asic farms and GPU farms, I own GPU farms.

the thing is easy ,as a general rule (it goes up and down obviously)
Asics require 2X to 2.5X more power consumption that GPU at the same profitability ratio.
Asics usually costs half of what a GPU rig costs at the same profitability ratio.

so in order, lets say, to produce 5 USD/day youll need 1 Rig of GPUs NVIDIA that will consume 650W or an asic that consumes 1600W

and yes the cost of the GPU rig is probably twice the cost of the ASIC.

but remember, power is everything, power determines how big can you go, how much can you expand
rent a place its easy, cooling it's hard but doable once you learn how the air dynamics works.
power....... it is another matter

you cannot request a: let's say 500KW in a house, the power company will refuse, it will request you to present the proper papers, as a company, since a house cannot use that level of power, as a company you need to exist as such, and pay taxes and all,and even so you still need permissions from government explaining what are you gonna do with all that power.

Anything above 300KW will probably require you to have your own high voltage transformer that will probably cost close to 100K USD plus instalation and proper certifications that takes a lot of time and money to do.

so, unless you plan to have only a very few asics in you small flat, if you want to go big, the only way is maximum power efficiency, and that it's not ASICS, it's GPU, do the math, buy both if you wan't and compare profitability vs power.

most people I know, got tired of GPU because they are difficult to configure, yes they are, but right now NVIDIA 1080Ti and AMD VEGA are the the most efficient GPUs in the market, it takes a lot of effort to make them work at maximum efficiency, but it worth it, and allows you pack a lot more of production in the same place and power capacity than will allow you with asics.

remember, power it is your ceiling , not money, power capacity is what tells you how high can you go.
cheers
indkt.


actually houses in my area are so big, with hot tubs electric cars requiring 50kw fast chargers etc its not hard to find a house sized with 400amps, throw in a detached garage you can easily get permit for another 300 watt for a garage shop.

Its false that they make you pay for the transformer all they need is a city permit and they put up the pole if needed.

power is not an issues.  the issue is residential rates are bad for mining.  Im my shop i have businesses rates , slowly moving my rigs there.  I pay .04 plus deman rate in the garage.  In my residence i pay 12 to 15. cents in summer no less than .11 in winter
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July 24, 2018, 06:13:23 PM
 #698


remember, power it is your ceiling , not money, power capacity is what tells you how high can you go.


Only if you HAVE enough money to get close to that ceiling.

In some cases, money IS the limit.


yup money will get u as much power as you want , cheap power is a big issue
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July 24, 2018, 10:36:18 PM
 #699

actually houses in my area are so big, with hot tubs electric cars requiring 50kw fast chargers etc its not hard to find a house sized with 400amps, throw in a detached garage you can easily get permit for another 300 watt for a garage shop.

Its false that they make you pay for the transformer all they need is a city permit and they put up the pole if needed.

power is not an issues.  the issue is residential rates are bad for mining.  Im my shop i have businesses rates , slowly moving my rigs there.  I pay .04 plus deman rate in the garage.  In my residence i pay 12 to 15. cents in summer no less than .11 in winter

Well, just because the main breaker says 400A doesn't mean you can actually draw 400A for more than a few seconds. Firstly, the NEC limits maximum continuous use of any circuit to 80% of the wiring or breaker rating, whatever is less (usually the breaker). Secondly, the distribution transformer (usually affectionately referred to as a "pig" if mounted on a utility pole) will likely be rated for 10kVA to 50kVA if pole-mounted, and 50kVA to 200kVA if pad-mounted, and each transformer will likely serve 1 - 6 houses so you really don't have nearly as much power available as you might think.

Our esteemed OP can probably provide a bit more detail on this seeing as he has had major electrical service work done, along with solar tie-ins, etc.

 
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July 25, 2018, 12:02:29 AM
 #700

actually houses in my area are so big, with hot tubs electric cars requiring 50kw fast chargers etc its not hard to find a house sized with 400amps, throw in a detached garage you can easily get permit for another 300 watt for a garage shop.

Its false that they make you pay for the transformer all they need is a city permit and they put up the pole if needed.

power is not an issues.  the issue is residential rates are bad for mining.  Im my shop i have businesses rates , slowly moving my rigs there.  I pay .04 plus deman rate in the garage.  In my residence i pay 12 to 15. cents in summer no less than .11 in winter

Well, just because the main breaker says 400A doesn't mean you can actually draw 400A for more than a few seconds. Firstly, the NEC limits maximum continuous use of any circuit to 80% of the wiring or breaker rating, whatever is less (usually the breaker). Secondly, the distribution transformer (usually affectionately referred to as a "pig" if mounted on a utility pole) will likely be rated for 10kVA to 50kVA if pole-mounted, and 50kVA to 200kVA if pad-mounted, and each transformer will likely serve 1 - 6 houses so you really don't have nearly as much power available as you might think.

Our esteemed OP can probably provide a bit more detail on this seeing as he has had major electrical service work done, along with solar tie-ins, etc.

 

well  so many variables here.

and  the internet makes it hard to write precisely .

As it gets boring to read a long reply.

marvell  is saying in his area he can get 400 + 300 = 700 amps which for a home owner is a lot of power.

700 x .8 = 560 at 240 volts = 134.4   24/7/365 draw  thats a lot for a homeowner.

you can run 100 avalon 841's
or 100 6x1080ti rigs

and that is a lot for a home.

Marvell is also saying most home owners  pay quite a bit more then 4 cents a kwatt.

my garage cost is 18 cents in the summer and 10 cents in the winter.

my home was never setup to run  over 12 kwatts in the winter

and runs under 3 watts in the summer

my home is a 150 amp 220 single phase setup.

The solar array has 400 amps 240 volts
It runs buy solars house his office and the mining gear.

and it never can  go past 75 kwatts  for charging back as the power company restricted sell back to 75 kwatts per daylight hour

the array on a perfect sunny day in July  could charge back 105 kwatts so power is wasted.  this is due to transformer limits .

Buysolar paid an extra 10000 for the transformer and some power company wire upgrades.

Even though buysolar could  make his field more powerful the power company won't handle it.

Lets leave it at this:

tight margins favor:

cheap plentiful power.


So a 2 megawatt solar flield  can do 400kwatts for free  that would be 300 s9is

if you have an empty 2 megawatt field ready to go on ling  you could buy 350 s9i's

and make money for quite a while.  so anyone with cheap power in abundance is buying those s9is

buy extra for spare parts.

my example above  in nj  would be 2million to setup  and the gear would be about 220,000 more

so 2,220,000  run 300 s9s  keep the rest as parts.

in 3 years  it is still earning 10k a month

you got back 1,000,000 of the 2,220,000 million

and about 400,000 in tax credits you owe about 820,000 on a 2,220,000 investment

and remember 2,000,000 of that is solar which has a 25 year life span

this is killing the garage miner cause people with money see this a way to pay for solar.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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