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Author Topic: Vladimir's essential self-defence guide for Bitcoin Miners  (Read 11942 times)
deepceleron
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August 23, 2011, 01:47:58 PM
 #21

Full time miners have to remember that hoppers do not cost the pool any money..
Please read the part i bolded. Actually, perhaps you should just read things properly the first time. You do have a tendency tend to fly off the handle a bit without reading things properly, deepceleron.

You say "full-time miners have to remember" - that shows we are discussing the interests of full-time miners, not the pool operator, so "pool" defines "miners pooling their resources". This thread's topic also shows we are discussing benefits to bitcoin miners and their concerns; this is not a guide for pool ops to maximize their profits by getting more block solves and fees by green-lighting hopping. The reply sounds revisionist.

It is for example possible to just mark shares as "stale" at will for the operator and there's no way to dispute this for miners.
Marking valid shares as stale or bad accounting, or not reporting a block find to pool members, are not the the likeliest attack vectors of an unscrupulous pool op. The least transparent (although it will still show over time as lowered luck) is for the pool op to add nonexistant mining shares into the pool rounds, getting paid for mining work not done.

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August 23, 2011, 02:05:22 PM
 #22

you've kind of just pointed one of the more insidious potential effect of hopping.  For many small pools switching to PPS is simply not an option due the much higher variance risk they have to bear.  Only last week we saw a small pool shutdown for just that reason.  The endgame is that small pools will gradually lose 24/7 miners to pool large enough to handle PPS. 

You don't have to generate all getworks yourself, so you could just proxy some shares from bigger pools in the beginning to not run out of funds. Also Bitcoins are quite cheap atm. - getting 100 of them to pay for nearly 4 million shares is not that expensive... shutting down because of running out of funds leaves me asking why someone starts a pure PPS pool in the first place, where they know they might have to have an initial bank roll to cover everything until the first block is found etc.

I think that many PPS pools will come up as "meta" pools (maybe even doing pool hopping in the background) and charging for example a 2% fee (VERY low for pure PPS) but mining at 0% PPLNS/SMPPS/... pools to build up funds for a real PPS endeavour in the future. For this you just need a handful of coins to battle the pooled pools variance (which is usually not as huge as block finind variance on your own) and nearly no infrastructure. On the other hand as soon as one of the other pools scams the metapool owner, it's likely that he'll either have to shut down or otherwise go out of business, so it's important that he'll get his funds quickly and as often as possible from the other pools.

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August 23, 2011, 10:02:12 PM
 #23

Quote
You don't have to generate all getworks yourself, so you could just proxy some shares from bigger pools in the beginning to not run out of funds.

Im curious how that would work? Did you mean proxy some shares TO bigger pools?   Wouldnt you still need to charge a premium on top of whatever you are making from the bigger pool per share?   Is this ethical?
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August 23, 2011, 10:41:01 PM
 #24

You say "full-time miners have to remember" - that shows we are discussing the interests of full-time miners, not the pool operator, so "pool" defines "miners pooling their resources". This thread's topic also shows we are discussing benefits to bitcoin miners and their concerns; this is not a guide for pool ops to maximize their profits by getting more block solves and fees by green-lighting hopping. The reply sounds revisionist.


OK then, how about reading the paragraph in full:


Good call. Full time miners have to remember that hoppers do not cost the pool any money (unless the hoppers come down on an unprepared  pool like a very small ddos attack). In fact pool ops can benefit from the increased hashrate at the start of a round by using that hashrate for advertising.

Full time miners do however make proportionally less than hoppers and with hash rate decreasing once hoppers leave, they get increased variance too.

So:
1. I mention full time miners
2. Hoppers do not cost pool
3. pool operators can benefit
4. Full time miners make less than hoppers

Since I mention that full time miners lose out just after the part where I said the pool can benefit I don't think there's any confusion there.

Just admit you didn't read the post and we can kiss and make up.

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deepceleron
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August 24, 2011, 12:06:51 AM
 #25


So:
1. I mention full time miners
2. Hoppers do not cost pool (operators)
3. pool operators can benefit
4. Full time miners make less than hoppers

Since I mention that full time miners lose out just after the part where I said the pool can benefit I don't think there's any confusion there.

Just admit you didn't read the post and we can kiss and make up.

Since he is not claiming that #4 is false like other hoppers, I will just have to concede that this learned poster is too cunning to be understood.

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August 24, 2011, 03:51:46 AM
 #26

I have moved all but one out of my miners out known hopped pools.  The last will move out around the weekend. 

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August 24, 2011, 09:03:17 AM
 #27

Rational people act rationally.

what always gets me is when hoppers call 24/7 single pool miners "lazy"...  A "hard-working" thief is still a thief.
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August 24, 2011, 09:36:58 AM
 #28

Interesting thread.  Past performance doesn't indicate future "luck" and that is easily shown by the average number of shares taken (on average) to find the next block for a single user or pool.

Possibly the argument in favour of pool hoppers is that when they jump to small pools, their impact is proportionally higher.  Adding 1 Ghash to a 5000 Ghash pool has less impact than the other way around.  The flip side is that if 5000 Ghash hopped into a small 1 Ghash pool, then it would change the average finding rate (Poisson lambda) for that pool.  You also need to consider how long a hopper might stick with a "hopped" pool and that could be done on the basis of pool size over time.

Fundamentally, over time, any one returned share has the same probability of "finding" a block as any other.  Across all pools and all users, all the coins are distributed.  The ability to consistently get a higher payout is probably beyond the calculation ability of many, and if pool hopping makes them think it helps, then maybe they are not valuing their own time and effort properly.

Just for the record, I decided to join a larger pool and proportional payout rather than pay per share or a small pool/solo mining.  I know too much statistics to rely on luck  Smiley
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August 24, 2011, 10:17:56 AM
 #29

Just for the record, I decided to join a larger pool and proportional payout rather than pay per share or a small pool/solo mining.  I know too much statistics to rely on luck  Smiley
Huh

If you know statistics well, what is your reason behind not using PPS? It has the lowest possible variance, is not dependent on pool size and can be easily calculated + verified.

Yes, with proportional payouts a bigger pool gives lower variance due to more "events" happening during the same time frame, but if you want to reduce variance, you would use pools with completely different payout methods anyways.

Also there were simulations done with distributing hash rate between several pools while hopping based on various criteria - bottom line is that it still is the best possible approach to just always jump to the pool with the lest shares, no matter how small (assuming all pool operators play/pay fair).

Quote
what always gets me is when hoppers call 24/7 single pool miners "lazy"...  A "hard-working" thief is still a thief.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KoKWf6pLs8

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August 24, 2011, 01:55:03 PM
 #30

that guide is a shameless promotion of your own pool, claiming that *MPPS pools are crap and should be avoided, how come ? ALL shares are paid * 0.00002768 BTC, for ALL miners!

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August 24, 2011, 03:56:46 PM
 #31

http://abcpool.com/

that is a good one Vladi!  just take a swim instead of fiddeling with the rig.  Grin


besides the link: good thing to point all that out loud and clear

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August 24, 2011, 04:04:35 PM
 #32

http://abcpool.com/

that is a good one Vladi!  just take a swim instead of fiddeling with the rig.  Grin


besides the link: good thing to point all that out loud and clear

haha!  I clicked the link and was like "Hey! what happened to abc pool?" and then i was all like "oh...doh!"
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August 24, 2011, 05:06:30 PM
 #33

Rational people act rationally.

what always gets me is when hoppers call 24/7 single pool miners "lazy"...  A "hard-working" thief is still a thief.

A) Rational people act rationally - hahahahaha. That's a good one.
B) I'm likely the source of the "lazy" tag for miners who just sit on one pool and don't try to optimize their mining revenue. I'll add that if these miners are anti-hopper then they are more than likely intellectually dishonest as well as lazy. I only have to reference the polmine miners who are fleeing the pool now that they are stuck on a 9 million block. There are numerous examples of miners "hopping" away from pools when they hit long blocks. Those are just slow hoppers. The deepbit 24/7 miners really are lazy and are detrimental to bitcoin. We hoppers provide a valuable service to bitcoin itself, which is infinitely more important to me than some whiny miners.

I can't say it better than Vladimir himself:  "Guess just like predators in nature you serve your purpose, eliminating stupid miners and advancing evolution and making bitcoin stronger. Whoever mines constantly in one of the pools successfully hopped by you surely deserves what he gets."

Well, actually I guess I can say it better and did privately to Vladimir 2 hours before he started this thread:
"Taking your point to its logical conclusion though you have to acknowledge that it is we hoppers who are the ethical ones. We are working literally around the clock (check the irc channel and git commits) to improve our methods and that in turn improves bitcoin. The miners who just buy a GPU, point it at a pool and walk away are the true leeches on the system, the unethical ones. They are the ones looking for money for nothing. We hoppers are at least putting in the time to justify our small percentage of extra earnings. We improve and strengthen bitcoin - they add nothing. If we can drive them out, fine. Hell, you do your best to convince every other miner in the world to quit. We are simply aiding in your effort, we are an extension of your effort.

I understand you have to take a public stance against us. That's alright. We both know that you benefit from us. We can continue to play the game. We aren't enemies, we are both on the side of making bitcoin dominant. Everybody plays a part. You keep playing yours and we'll keep playing ours."

Vladimir launching a PR campaign to try to paint himself as the defender of miners is a little on the nose. He's the most predatory of miners and for that I applaud him. At least he gets it and is self-serving even in his "self-defense" diatribe. You bleeding hearts with your "concern" for those poor miners hurt by hopping are dangerous to bitcoin. The sooner you get out of the evolutionary path and the bitcoin gene pool, the better. You want to compete against world currencies and yet you weep for the weak and ignorant? You will be devoured by the global financial market and spit out before you can even get your boots on.

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August 24, 2011, 05:40:56 PM
 #34


I understand you have to take a public stance against us. That's alright. We both know that you benefit from us. We can continue to play the game. We aren't enemies, we are both on the side of making bitcoin dominant. Everybody plays a part. You keep playing yours and we'll keep playing ours."

because no matter what, hoppers gonna hop.  Grin


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August 24, 2011, 07:02:13 PM
 #35

Just for the record, I decided to join a larger pool and proportional payout rather than pay per share or a small pool/solo mining.  I know too much statistics to rely on luck  Smiley
Huh

If you know statistics well, what is your reason behind not using PPS? It has the lowest possible variance, is not dependent on pool size and can be easily calculated + verified.


Difference in fee structure made the expected payoff for proportional higher than pay per share, plus I can withstand the increased variance over time.
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August 24, 2011, 07:32:25 PM
 #36


B) I'm likely the source of the "lazy" tag for miners who just sit on one pool and don't try to optimize their mining revenue. I'll add that if these miners are anti-hopper then they are more than likely intellectually dishonest as well as lazy. I only have to reference the polmine miners who are fleeing the pool now that they are stuck on a 9 million block. There are numerous examples of miners "hopping" away from pools when they hit long blocks. Those are just slow hoppers. The deepbit 24/7 miners really are lazy and are detrimental to bitcoin. We hoppers provide a valuable service to bitcoin itself, which is infinitely more important to me than some whiny miners.

I can't say it better than Vladimir himself:  "Guess just like predators in nature you serve your purpose, eliminating stupid miners and advancing evolution and making bitcoin stronger. Whoever mines constantly in one of the pools successfully hopped by you surely deserves what he gets."

Well, actually I guess I can say it better and did privately to Vladimir 2 hours before he started this thread:
"Taking your point to its logical conclusion though you have to acknowledge that it is we hoppers who are the ethical ones. We are working literally around the clock (check the irc channel and git commits) to improve our methods and that in turn improves bitcoin. The miners who just buy a GPU, point it at a pool and walk away are the true leeches on the system, the unethical ones. They are the ones looking for money for nothing. We hoppers are at least putting in the time to justify our small percentage of extra earnings. We improve and strengthen bitcoin - they add nothing. If we can drive them out, fine. Hell, you do your best to convince every other miner in the world to quit. We are simply aiding in your effort, we are an extension of your effort.

I understand you have to take a public stance against us. That's alright. We both know that you benefit from us. We can continue to play the game. We aren't enemies, we are both on the side of making bitcoin dominant. Everybody plays a part. You keep playing yours and we'll keep playing ours."

Vladimir launching a PR campaign to try to paint himself as the defender of miners is a little on the nose. He's the most predatory of miners and for that I applaud him. At least he gets it and is self-serving even in his "self-defense" diatribe. You bleeding hearts with your "concern" for those poor miners hurt by hopping are dangerous to bitcoin. The sooner you get out of the evolutionary path and the bitcoin gene pool, the better. You want to compete against world currencies and yet you weep for the weak and ignorant? You will be devoured by the global financial market and spit out before you can even get your boots on.

Finally a rational post without crazy claims and ridiculous accusations.  There is some logic and truth in PIECES of what you say.  If you speak this way im much more inclined to at least see your side of this issue.   I dont have to agree but if you take the time to explain yourself i can at least understand where you are coming from.  

A few key points;
1) working hard is not the same thing as being ethical.
2) if everyone hopped and there were no loyal miners no blocks would be solved.  In time, you all would eventually hop yourselves and bitcoin to death if there were no 24/7 miners to save you.

I still believe that in the long term you are hurting and not helping only to maximize your own profits.  As an individual i can understand your motivation for doing this and can appreciate the effort it takes.  But i still stand by my opinion that you are exploiting a system for personal gain with no regard to the long term consequences.  

As a pool operator, on the other hand,  we have a fiduciary duty to protect our miners (non-hoppers) from the consequences of pool-hoppers.  The loyal miners are the ones that will solve that elusive block when all the hoppers are long gone because the round lasted longer than they were willing to stick around for.   They should be rewarded for that.  A share has no value.  Its an arbitrary proof of work and nothing more.  Its the blocks that matter and if you wont stick around until one is found why should you share in the bounty?
Whether you agree with that or not - surely you at least see the honesty in it.

As for the bleeding heart garbage... you can throw that out the window... i protect my miners so they can maximize their income so that in turn i can maximize pool revenue and charity donations to bitcoin developers.  Simple, really.

You and I are on flip sides of the same bitcoin.
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August 24, 2011, 07:57:23 PM
 #37

I can't say it better than Vladimir himself:  "Guess just like predators in nature you serve your purpose, eliminating stupid miners and advancing evolution and making bitcoin stronger. Whoever mines constantly in one of the pools successfully hopped by you surely deserves what he gets."

Since we've started quoting me, I'll reply by quoting myself too:

Quote
Pool hoppers act as predators in nature and will quickly eliminate the weaklings and this goes both for stupid miners and corrupt pools. However, before long these predators will start dying from starvation as no more easy prey will be available.

Enjoy, while it lasts.


When the easy prey dies off then we just take our strength, knowledge and numbers and begin hunting elephants. It's not even fun until that point, anyway Smiley

Nice tusks, btw.

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August 24, 2011, 08:13:06 PM
 #38

I can't say it better than Vladimir himself:  "Guess just like predators in nature you serve your purpose, eliminating stupid miners and advancing evolution and making bitcoin stronger. Whoever mines constantly in one of the pools successfully hopped by you surely deserves what he gets."

Since we've started quoting me, I'll reply by quoting myself too:

Quote
Pool hoppers act as predators in nature and will quickly eliminate the weaklings and this goes both for stupid miners and corrupt pools. However, before long these predators will start dying from starvation as no more easy prey will be available.

Enjoy, while it lasts.


When the easy prey dies off then we just take our strength, knowledge and numbers and begin hunting elephants. It's not even fun until that point, anyway Smiley

Nice tusks, btw.


Cheesy Cheesy
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August 24, 2011, 09:17:28 PM
 #39


I only have to reference the polmine miners who are fleeing the pool now that they are stuck on a 9 million block.

Interesting, the system throws random answers (returned shares) at a problem and people attribute long solves to "luck" rather than just the normal probability distribution of solving a block.

If I jumped to a new pool that found the block as soon as I joined, I might get 0 shares out of 100, because the pool was "lucky" to find it right then, but my 100000 shares in the previous pool will contribute to the next block found there anyway.

Willing to be proved wrong, someone might want to supply a link that shows, over a period of a month or longer, for 1000Mhash mining (ie, non trivial) the average return from sitting versus hopping?
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August 24, 2011, 09:51:17 PM
 #40


When the easy prey dies off then we just take our strength, knowledge and numbers and begin hunting elephants. It's not even fun until that point, anyway Smiley

Nice tusks, btw.

Well written and gave me a chucle.  But I do not think the anaolgy is correct.

You started with the elephants and got em all, did the cows and pigs.  Now you are on the sheep and running low.  Hoping does make money now, but like mining will become less and less.


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