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Author Topic: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness!  (Read 95852 times)
Hawker
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October 20, 2011, 07:26:07 PM
 #2121

Why would most people pay for a game when it's available for free legally? I think you're sadly mistaken if you think most people who do pay right now the retail price for a game would actually pay anything if it was legally available for free.

Because we want to support the developers of the game. I do this all the fucking time, and so do many others.

Ditto! I admit to downloading games I'm not even sure if I'll like, and buying those I know I want, even if they can be
 downloaded. Same thing for movies. It if a movie I know I'll want to see, I'l happily spend the $12 to go see it, even if the DVD screener is already available online

And if there is no IP law, the movie maker won't see a cent of that $12.  

Unless he releases copies of the movie ONLY to specific theaters under contract, or sells it for millions to Hulu or Netflix.

You know, like how movie makers do already, and which has been mentioned many many many times.

Yes the movies are on the net before they reach the theaters...as was also mentioned many times.  The only reason the theater owners pay is IP law.

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FredericBastiat
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October 20, 2011, 07:39:18 PM
 #2122

Hawker, FirstAscent please answer the question posted.

Given: When copying a DVD in china sold to another chinese person. What is the significance of this force?

So are you're referring to a magical mystical (MM) kind of force? So what are the units of this force? Oh, and if it isn't this new MM force and it's still about "degrees" of force in Newtons (kg*m/s^2), what is the approximate measure and quantity of force as applied in my example? I do understand a proportionality of punishment (force applied), so I would be willing to accept that proportion I'd be found guilty of.

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October 20, 2011, 07:40:37 PM
 #2123

Why would most people pay for a game when it's available for free legally? I think you're sadly mistaken if you think most people who do pay right now the retail price for a game would actually pay anything if it was legally available for free.

Because we want to support the developers of the game. I do this all the fucking time, and so do many others.

Ditto! I admit to downloading games I'm not even sure if I'll like, and buying those I know I want, even if they can be
 downloaded. Same thing for movies. It if a movie I know I'll want to see, I'l happily spend the $12 to go see it, even if the DVD screener is already available online

And if there is no IP law, the movie maker won't see a cent of that $12.  

Unless he releases copies of the movie ONLY to specific theaters under contract, or sells it for millions to Hulu or Netflix.

You know, like how movie makers do already, and which has been mentioned many many many times.

Yes the movies are on the net before they reach the theaters...as was also mentioned many times.  The only reason the theater owners pay is IP law.

Are the high quality film versions on the net? I think it was mentioned that the only reason they pay is to get the film versions instead of the grainy DVD screener versions, and if they ever showed or gave away a movie without permission, they would lose the contract and never be able to show good quality movies again.

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October 20, 2011, 07:43:34 PM
 #2124

This https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=49179.0 was actually inspired by this thread, and may give the libertarians here a chance to put their bitcoin where their mouth is, so to speak.

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October 20, 2011, 10:13:46 PM
 #2125

..snip...

Are the high quality film versions on the net? I think it was mentioned that the only reason they pay is to get the film versions instead of the grainy DVD screener versions, and if they ever showed or gave away a movie without permission, they would lose the contract and never be able to show good quality movies again.

Yes.  And you know it...why even ask?

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October 21, 2011, 03:50:14 AM
 #2126

..snip...

Are the high quality film versions on the net? I think it was mentioned that the only reason they pay is to get the film versions instead of the grainy DVD screener versions, and if they ever showed or gave away a movie without permission, they would lose the contract and never be able to show good quality movies again.

Yes.  And you know it...why even ask?

I download and torrent stuff often, and I've never seen them. Actually, I don't even know what video format theater movies are in... Can you point me to where those high quality movies are available?

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October 21, 2011, 06:22:11 AM
 #2127

..snip...

Are the high quality film versions on the net? I think it was mentioned that the only reason they pay is to get the film versions instead of the grainy DVD screener versions, and if they ever showed or gave away a movie without permission, they would lose the contract and never be able to show good quality movies again.

Yes.  And you know it...why even ask?

I download and torrent stuff often, and I've never seen them. Actually, I don't even know what video format theater movies are in... Can you point me to where those high quality movies are available?

If you are serious, Google it. 

We've been over this before...not sure why you want to repeat something that has already been settled.  There is no viable business model for movie makers if they do not have a guarantee that the movie theaters will pay them for showings of the movie.  So if you want to remove that guarantee/IP laws, you need to come up with a system that works better than what we have.

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October 21, 2011, 12:44:23 PM
 #2128

..snip...

Are the high quality film versions on the net? I think it was mentioned that the only reason they pay is to get the film versions instead of the grainy DVD screener versions, and if they ever showed or gave away a movie without permission, they would lose the contract and never be able to show good quality movies again.

Yes.  And you know it...why even ask?

I download and torrent stuff often, and I've never seen them. Actually, I don't even know what video format theater movies are in... Can you point me to where those high quality movies are available?

If you are serious, Google it. 

We've been over this before...not sure why you want to repeat something that has already been settled. 

You say something, assume it's so, and then believe it's settled?  What is wrong with you?  None of us agree with your assessment.  You have changed no one's mind, neither have we.  That's a far cry from 'settled'.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 21, 2011, 12:45:39 PM
 #2129

And I'm still waiting for a response to this question...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38854.msg585369#msg585369

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
Hawker
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October 21, 2011, 01:04:29 PM
 #2130

..snip...

Are the high quality film versions on the net? I think it was mentioned that the only reason they pay is to get the film versions instead of the grainy DVD screener versions, and if they ever showed or gave away a movie without permission, they would lose the contract and never be able to show good quality movies again.

Yes.  And you know it...why even ask?

I download and torrent stuff often, and I've never seen them. Actually, I don't even know what video format theater movies are in... Can you point me to where those high quality movies are available?

If you are serious, Google it. 

We've been over this before...not sure why you want to repeat something that has already been settled. 

You say something, assume it's so, and then believe it's settled?  What is wrong with you?  None of us agree with your assessment.  You have changed no one's mind, neither have we.  That's a far cry from 'settled'.

If there is no way for movie makers to get paid, then there will be far fewer movies made.  I take it you agree with that?

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October 21, 2011, 01:13:12 PM
 #2131


..snip...

Are the high quality film versions on the net? I think it was mentioned that the only reason they pay is to get the film versions instead of the grainy DVD screener versions, and if they ever showed or gave away a movie without permission, they would lose the contract and never be able to show good quality movies again.

Yes.  And you know it...why even ask?

I download and torrent stuff often, and I've never seen them. Actually, I don't even know what video format theater movies are in... Can you point me to where those high quality movies are available?

If you are serious, Google it. 

We've been over this before...not sure why you want to repeat something that has already been settled. 

You say something, assume it's so, and then believe it's settled?  What is wrong with you?  None of us agree with your assessment.  You have changed no one's mind, neither have we.  That's a far cry from 'settled'.

If there is no way for movie makers to get paid, then there will be far fewer movies made.  I take it you agree with that?

I agree with the conclusion if the premise is correct, but it's not.  The producers get paid because of contract law not copyright law.  The same is true for each and every one of the actors.  Not a single major production company depends upon copyright law to do anything for a first run major motion picture.  How the hell do you think that Showtime produces movies and shows that subscribers pay nothing for?  How does Hallmark produce direct-to-cable/direct-to-video tearjerkers?  How does SciFi produce hours upon hours of B-rate movies?  Not one of these producers depends upon copyright law to get paid, they damn near give it all away free.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
Hawker
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October 21, 2011, 02:02:19 PM
 #2132


...snip...

If there is no way for movie makers to get paid, then there will be far fewer movies made.  I take it you agree with that?

I agree with the conclusion if the premise is correct, but it's not.  The producers get paid because of contract law not copyright law.  The same is true for each and every one of the actors.  Not a single major production company depends upon copyright law to do anything for a first run major motion picture.  How the hell do you think that Showtime produces movies and shows that subscribers pay nothing for?  How does Hallmark produce direct-to-cable/direct-to-video tearjerkers?  How does SciFi produce hours upon hours of B-rate movies?  Not one of these producers depends upon copyright law to get paid, they damn near give it all away free.

So if the movie is leaked, no contract is needed and the movie maker doesn't get paid.  Movies cost millions to make - if you take away the protection from the movie maker, you take away the incentive to make movies.  There will be far fewer of them.

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October 21, 2011, 02:13:52 PM
 #2133

So if the movie is leaked, no contract is needed and the movie maker doesn't get paid.

So everyone's going to build business models relying upon leaked movies? No, most are going to stick with the contract because it is more reliable.

Movies cost millions to make

Some do. It's not a necessity though.

if you take away the protection from the movie maker, you take away the incentive to make movies.

Some people are creative, and will express that creativity regardless of a profit motive.

There will be far fewer of them.

So what, if people want fewer movies?
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October 21, 2011, 02:36:36 PM
 #2134

..snip...

Are the high quality film versions on the net? I think it was mentioned that the only reason they pay is to get the film versions instead of the grainy DVD screener versions, and if they ever showed or gave away a movie without permission, they would lose the contract and never be able to show good quality movies again.

Yes.  And you know it...why even ask?

I download and torrent stuff often, and I've never seen them. Actually, I don't even know what video format theater movies are in... Can you point me to where those high quality movies are available?

If you are serious, Google it. 

Just did. No copies of movies in Digical Cinema Package or Digital Cinema Distribution Master format anywhere, and apparently the size of such a download would be about 300Gigs. That's actually 50Gigs more than my ISP's monthly cap. So unless you can point me to a DCP or a DCDM file download, I call bullshit. I won't even mind if it is encrypted, like they all apparently are.

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October 21, 2011, 03:42:10 PM
 #2135

Lookie here!

http://dvice.com/archives/2011/10/anti-piracy-com.php


This census of actual pirates says 24% of them have already pre ordered the game, 25% will buy it later, and almost 50% said they just wanted to try it out. Seems the company who made the game would still make money.

This actually also brings up a major problem with IP laws: If I buy an electronic gadget, and it sucks or I don't like it, I can return it. Better still, I can try the gadget before buying it to see if I'll like it. With IP content like games or movies, I have to pay ahead of time, and if I hate it, I can neither return it nor get my money back. IP laws essentially enable fraud, where I can be lied to about a movie being great, have my money be taken from me, and when I realize I was lied to, have no recourse for compensation.

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October 21, 2011, 05:30:34 PM
 #2136

So if the movie is leaked, no contract is needed and the movie maker doesn't get paid.

So everyone's going to build business models relying upon leaked movies? No, most are going to stick with the contract because it is more reliable.

Movies cost millions to make

Some do. It's not a necessity though.

if you take away the protection from the movie maker, you take away the incentive to make movies.

Some people are creative, and will express that creativity regardless of a profit motive.

There will be far fewer of them.

So what, if people want fewer movies?

Now you are going over old ground for the sake of it.  People won't invest millions in a movie if there is no way to get a return.  And its not your place to decide what moview people want.  If you personally like low budget flicks, feel free to indulge.  Don't presume to take the choice of high budget films away from everyone else though.

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October 21, 2011, 05:32:27 PM
 #2137

Now you are going over old ground for the sake of it.  People won't invest millions in a movie if there is no way to get a return.  And its not your place to decide what moview people want.  If you personally like low budget flicks, feel free to indulge.  Don't presume to take the choice of high budget films away from everyone else though.

So you are saying that people want big budget movies, that there is a demand for them?
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October 21, 2011, 05:36:10 PM
 #2138

People won't invest millions in a movie if there is no way to get a return.  And its not your place to decide what moview people want.  If you personally like low budget flicks, feel free to indulge.  Don't presume to take the choice of high budget films away from everyone else though.

There is a way for them to get a return.

Are you saying you want others to pay for you to be able to see a good movie, even if they don't like the movie, instead you yourself paying more for it?

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October 21, 2011, 05:37:54 PM
 #2139

People won't invest millions in a movie if there is no way to get a return.  And its not your place to decide what moview people want.  If you personally like low budget flicks, feel free to indulge.  Don't presume to take the choice of high budget films away from everyone else though.

There is a way for them to get a return.


Are you saying you want others to pay for you to be able to see a good movie, even if they don't like the movie, instead you yourself paying more for it?

Not if the movie theater can show it for free.


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October 21, 2011, 05:40:07 PM
 #2140



Now you are going over old ground for the sake of it.

Not for the sake of it.  You seem to believe that because you can't imagine how such films would be paid for, that they couldn't exist.  We have repeatedly pointed out your errors of both logic and fact.  The cognative dissonance must be excrutiating.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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