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Author Topic: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness!  (Read 95877 times)
MoonShadow
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October 21, 2011, 05:42:09 PM
 #2141

People won't invest millions in a movie if there is no way to get a return.  And its not your place to decide what moview people want.  If you personally like low budget flicks, feel free to indulge.  Don't presume to take the choice of high budget films away from everyone else though.

There is a way for them to get a return.


Are you saying you want others to pay for you to be able to see a good movie, even if they don't like the movie, instead you yourself paying more for it?

Not if the movie theater can show it for free.



They can't! And that fact has zero to do with IP laws!  Take away every copyright law protecting movies, and it won't change a thing about how first run theaters operate!  Nor would it have much affect on how any other theater operates!

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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MoonShadow
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October 21, 2011, 06:07:22 PM
 #2142

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38854.msg585369#msg585369

I'm still waiting for a response, Hawker.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 21, 2011, 06:09:58 PM
 #2143

..snip...

They can't! And that fact has zero to do with IP laws!  Take away every copyright law protecting movies, and it won't change a thing about how first run theaters operate!  Nor would it have much affect on how any other theater operates!

Take away IP laws and there won't be such a thing as first run theaters.  If contract law was enough, they would never sue for piracy when someone shows an unpaid for film in a non-contracted movie theater.

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October 21, 2011, 06:11:57 PM
 #2144

People won't invest millions in a movie if there is no way to get a return.  And its not your place to decide what moview people want.  If you personally like low budget flicks, feel free to indulge.  Don't presume to take the choice of high budget films away from everyone else though.

There is a way for them to get a return.


Are you saying you want others to pay for you to be able to see a good movie, even if they don't like the movie, instead you yourself paying more for it?

Not if the movie theater can show it for free.

There is a way for them to get a return, and make the movie theater pay for it, and prevent the movie theater from making or getting copies of it, all without IP laws.

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October 21, 2011, 06:15:37 PM
 #2145

..snip...

They can't! And that fact has zero to do with IP laws!  Take away every copyright law protecting movies, and it won't change a thing about how first run theaters operate!  Nor would it have much affect on how any other theater operates!

Take away IP laws and there won't be such a thing as first run theaters.  If contract law was enough, they would never sue for piracy when someone shows an unpaid for film in a non-contracted movie theater.

They don't sue for piracy. Theaters don't have enough cash to make paying for expensive lawyers worth it. They simply never sell movies to that theater again, and let it go out of business. Movie theaters also know that if they want to continue getting good quality movies on opening days, they must honor the contracts not to distribute the movies.
What part of that are you not able to understand?

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October 21, 2011, 06:16:27 PM
 #2146

All this talk about unanswered posts are BS.  I've personally answered half of them, and my responses have gone ignored.  I shall now ask a simple question, for at least the fourth time in this topic alone...

Does Nina Paley have the right to earn a living off of her magnum opus, Sita Sings the Blues?  Does she have the right to ask for any sum of money in exchange for this work?

http://blog.ninapaley.com/
http://sitasingstheblues.com/

If she has copyright, she has a right to royalties.  I never heard of her but if there are enough fans that she can make a living off it, more power to her.

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October 21, 2011, 06:17:21 PM
 #2147

..snip...

They can't! And that fact has zero to do with IP laws!  Take away every copyright law protecting movies, and it won't change a thing about how first run theaters operate!  Nor would it have much affect on how any other theater operates!

Take away IP laws and there won't be such a thing as first run theaters.  If contract law was enough, they would never sue for piracy when someone shows an unpaid for film in a non-contracted movie theater.

They don't sue for piracy. Theaters don't have enough cash to make paying for expensive lawyers worth it. They simply never sell movies to that theater again, and let it go out of business. Movie theaters also know that if they want to continue getting good quality movies on opening days, they must honor the contracts not to distribute the movies.
What part of that are you not able to understand?

Without IP laws, the movie theater never needs to buy a movie again.  What part of that do you not understand?

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October 21, 2011, 06:25:22 PM
 #2148

Without IP laws, the movie theater never needs to buy a movie again.  What part of that do you not understand?

The part where you still can't show me how or where a theater can get film quality movies to show. Especially on movie release dates. Also still waiting for explanation of how do download stuff from Hulu...

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October 21, 2011, 06:27:52 PM
 #2149

..snip...

They can't! And that fact has zero to do with IP laws!  Take away every copyright law protecting movies, and it won't change a thing about how first run theaters operate!  Nor would it have much affect on how any other theater operates!

Take away IP laws and there won't be such a thing as first run theaters.  If contract law was enough, they would never sue for piracy when someone shows an unpaid for film in a non-contracted movie theater.

You're right, they wouldn't sue the non-contracted movie theater.  They would sue the party responsible for either the movie's release, claim it against their insurance as a loss, or suck it up.

Which is pretty much what happens now.  The consequences to a movie theater if an employee were to leak the movie are pretty harsh, and only because of contract law.  I can think of only one case in the past 20 years that a first run movie was leaked to the Internet (before it's release on DVD) in any format worthy of watching, and that was due to a pre-release production version being taken home by an employee of the editing company under contract to the production company.  That editing company doesn't exist anymore, and I doubt that editor could even find work in the porn industry.  Theaters are under contract to prevent attendees from bringing in recording devices to even produce those crappy versions that sometimes appear after the opening weekend.

Here it is...

http://news.softpedia.com/news/X-Men-Origins-Wolverine-Torrent-Still-Available-108408.shtml

Wait, a DVD quality movie hits the Internet before opening weekend?  And the movie only managed to pull in $87 million for opening weekend!   However will Warner Brothers ever survive!  Oh, the humanity!

""X-Men Origins: Wolverine" reaped an estimated $87 million, scoring number one at the box office this weekend, according to audience trackers Nielsen EDI. The films totals mark the second-highest opening of the four X-Men films, behind 2006's "X-Men: The Last Stand". Despite having the best weekend of any film released, the film did not meet industry projections."

http://www.ticketnews.com/news/X-Men-Origins-Wolverine-has-solid-opening-weekend-at-the-box-office05904066

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 21, 2011, 06:30:59 PM
 #2150

Moonshadow - the income was from movie theaters.  If there was no IP law, the movie theater could get the movie for free.  So no income and no movies.  And saying they should "suck it up" is not your decision.  Society protects its members from harm like that.

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October 21, 2011, 06:34:22 PM
 #2151

All this talk about unanswered posts are BS.  I've personally answered half of them, and my responses have gone ignored.  I shall now ask a simple question, for at least the fourth time in this topic alone...

Does Nina Paley have the right to earn a living off of her magnum opus, Sita Sings the Blues?  Does she have the right to ask for any sum of money in exchange for this work?

http://blog.ninapaley.com/
http://sitasingstheblues.com/

If she has copyright, she has a right to royalties.  I never heard of her but if there are enough fans that she can make a living off it, more power to her.

She has the copyright, she is not elliblge for royalties.  The copyrights of dead artists prevent her from claiming any royalties.  She spent years of her life and more than $50K to produce the movie, and couldn't charge a dime for the finished work because the royalty payments to the holding companies that bought the copyrights to the works of dead artists would have exceeded the total cost of production by a significant margin.  Due to fair use law, she was able to release the work for free, but can never accept a dime in royalties.  How does that encourage artists to create new works?  Are holding companies contributing to the body of work?  If so, how?

It was a pretty good movie, BTW, and she takes donations in bitcoin.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 21, 2011, 06:36:02 PM
 #2152

Moonshadow - the income was from movie theaters.  If there was no IP law, the movie theater could get the movie for free. 

FROM WHOM? WHERE? HOW?

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October 21, 2011, 06:42:01 PM
 #2153

Moonshadow - the income was from movie theaters.  If there was no IP law, the movie theater could get the movie for free. 

FROM WHOM? WHERE? HOW?

Secret stuff leaks.  Ask Bradley Manning.

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October 21, 2011, 06:44:09 PM
 #2154

Moonshadow - the income was from movie theaters.  If there was no IP law, the movie theater could get the movie for free.

For the last time, no they can't!  I'd like to see you try to get a movie theater quality file from the Internet, or anywhere else, without paying for it.  You can't even get a movie theater quality video of B-rate horror movies from the 30's from the internet.  If they could, why wouldn't theaters in Cuba show the first run movies?  Do you think that Cuban communists give a crap about what a capitalist pig company such as Warner Brothers might do?  Do you think that 'international law' crap on the FBI warning has any real force in Cuba (or anywhere else)?  It would be hard for a hacker in China to get even a VHS quality copy of a first run movie before opening weekend.  That is because the production companies use contract law to bind the distributors to tight security rules, and punish them severely if they fail.  Which, BTW, is incrediblely rare.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 21, 2011, 06:46:27 PM
 #2155

Moonshadow - the income was from movie theaters.  If there was no IP law, the movie theater could get the movie for free. 

FROM WHOM? WHERE? HOW?

Secret stuff leaks.  Ask Bradley Manning.

Bradley Manning had direct access to that data, because he had direct access to a secure network node.  While you're asking him about how he did it, ask him how it worked out for him.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 21, 2011, 06:47:07 PM
 #2156

Moonshadow - the income was from movie theaters.  If there was no IP law, the movie theater could get the movie for free.

For the last time, no they can't!  I'd like to see you try to get a movie theater quality file from the Internet, or anywhere else, without paying for it.  You can't even get a movie theater quality video of B-rate horror movies from the 30's from the internet.  If they could, why wouldn't theaters in Cuba show the first run movies?  Do you think that Cuban communists give a crap about what a capitalist pig company such as Warner Brothers might do?  Do you think that 'international law' crap on the FBI warning has any real force in Cuba (or anywhere else)?  It would be hard for a hacker in China to get even a VHS quality copy of a first run movie before opening weekend.  That is because the production companies use contract law to bind the distributors to tight security rules, and punish them severely if they fail.  Which, BTW, is incrediblely rare.

So you reckon the movie industry would do just fine if they removed the copyright notices from all their works?  Nothing would leak and everyone would just play nicely.

You are kidding yourself.

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October 21, 2011, 06:49:02 PM
 #2157

Moonshadow - the income was from movie theaters.  If there was no IP law, the movie theater could get the movie for free.

For the last time, no they can't!  I'd like to see you try to get a movie theater quality file from the Internet, or anywhere else, without paying for it.  You can't even get a movie theater quality video of B-rate horror movies from the 30's from the internet.  If they could, why wouldn't theaters in Cuba show the first run movies?  Do you think that Cuban communists give a crap about what a capitalist pig company such as Warner Brothers might do?  Do you think that 'international law' crap on the FBI warning has any real force in Cuba (or anywhere else)?  It would be hard for a hacker in China to get even a VHS quality copy of a first run movie before opening weekend.  That is because the production companies use contract law to bind the distributors to tight security rules, and punish them severely if they fail.  Which, BTW, is incrediblely rare.

So you reckon the movie industry would do just fine if they removed the copyright notices from all their works?  Nothing would leak and everyone would just play nicely.

You are kidding yourself.

And your kidding yourself if you think that they depend upon copyright to protect their data.  They might swing that stick if that is the only option, but it's a pretty small stick relatively speaking. 

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 21, 2011, 06:50:40 PM
 #2158

Secret stuff leaks.  Ask Bradley Manning.

I can't. There are consequences for breaking contracts...
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October 21, 2011, 06:50:57 PM
 #2159

So you reckon the movie industry would do just fine if they removed the copyright notices from all their works?  Nothing would leak and everyone would just play nicely.

Can you guess how much of an effect those notices have had on me to stop me from making copies (backups) of those movies? Please guess!

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October 21, 2011, 06:51:54 PM
 #2160

...snip...

You are kidding yourself.

And your kidding yourself if you think that they depend upon copyright to protect their data.  They might swing that stick if that is the only option, but it's a pretty small stick relatively speaking. 

Well we should see plenty movies being made without IP protection then?  No change of the law needed.  

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