bitcoin-trader.biz

[Rannasha]

How many people have actually reached profit zone using Bitcoin trader?

Probably hundreds did. Consider that just a fraction of their customers is participating in public forums and they are in their 3rd 120 day cycle now.

So how can this be a ponzi then? What kind of ponzi lets hundreds of its users to make money??? If this is a ponzi a users make money, this means that ponzi loses money.
Just does not fit.

It fits perfectly. In fact, paying out properly, at least at the start, is one of the main characteristics of a Ponzi scheme. Otherwise it'd just be a simple grab-and-run scam. As long as more new deposits come in than is withdrawn, the Ponzi-operator has an incentive to keep the operation running. The longer the operation runs and successfully pays out, the more confidence people gain in it. If many investors decide to not withdraw their money and instead leave it on the site (perhaps doing one or two test-withdrawals to ensure that that works), it doesn't require many new deposits to keep the scheme running.

However, since no actual profits are being made, at some point the scheme will grow to such a size that the amount of withdrawals starts to outpace the deposits. At this point the operator typically closes up shop, sometimes with a coverstory like the site being hacked, sometimes they just go offline without saying anything.

Ultimately, the question "do they pay out?" is an extremely poor way to decide whether something is a Ponzi scheme or not. However, Ponzi-promotors typically use this as their main argument to convince people to invest. Much better indicators are whether the organization is transparent (BT: nope), whether the profits they claim are realistic (BT: nope), whether there are no inconsistencies in their story (BT: nope), whether it makes sense that the company seeks small investments from consumers rather than VCs (BT: nope). These points are all red flags you can use to evaluate these types of operations.

The 120 day maturation period that BT uses is a clever innovation for Ponzi schemes. It serves a dual purpose. First of all, it makes the story more believable (An investment shouldn't just allow you to withdraw any amount of money at a moments notice, since your money actually has to be doing something in order to generate a profit). Secondly, it gives the operator a good picture of when possible peaks in withdrawals can be expected. Many Ponzi schemes collapse when a bankrun is started from panic due to unexpected downtime or the Ponzi being revealed. With the 120 day lockin period, people can't mass panic and withdraw.

Nevertheless, despite this clever innovation, there are more than enough red flags regarding BT to make you not want to touch it with a 10ft pole.

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[vach]

How many people have actually reached profit zone using Bitcoin trader?

Probably hundreds did. Consider that just a fraction of their customers is participating in public forums and they are in their 3rd 120 day cycle now.

So how can this be a ponzi then? What kind of ponzi lets hundreds of its users to make money??? If this is a ponzi a users make money, this means that ponzi loses money.
Just does not fit.

It fits perfectly. In fact, paying out properly, at least at the start, is one of the main characteristics of a Ponzi scheme. Otherwise it'd just be a simple grab-and-run scam. As long as more new deposits come in than is withdrawn, the Ponzi-operator has an incentive to keep the operation running. The longer the operation runs and successfully pays out, the more confidence people gain in it. If many investors decide to not withdraw their money and instead leave it on the site (perhaps doing one or two test-withdrawals to ensure that that works), it doesn't require many new deposits to keep the scheme running.

However, since no actual profits are being made, at some point the scheme will grow to such a size that the amount of withdrawals starts to outpace the deposits. At this point the operator typically closes up shop, sometimes with a coverstory like the site being hacked, sometimes they just go offline without saying anything.

Ultimately, the question "do they pay out?" is an extremely poor way to decide whether something is a Ponzi scheme or not. However, Ponzi-promotors typically use this as their main argument to convince people to invest. Much better indicators are whether the organization is transparent (BT: nope), whether the profits they claim are realistic (BT: nope), whether there are no inconsistencies in their story (BT: nope), whether it makes sense that the company seeks small investments from consumers rather than VCs (BT: nope). These points are all red flags you can use to evaluate these types of operations.

The 120 day maturation period that BT uses is a clever innovation for Ponzi schemes. It serves a dual purpose. First of all, it makes the story more believable (An investment shouldn't just allow you to withdraw any amount of money at a moments notice, since your money actually has to be doing something in order to generate a profit). Secondly, it gives the operator a good picture of when possible peaks in withdrawals can be expected. Many Ponzi schemes collapse when a bankrun is started from panic due to unexpected downtime or the Ponzi being revealed. With the 120 day lockin period, people can't mass panic and withdraw.

Nevertheless, despite this clever innovation, there are more than enough red flags regarding BT to make you not want to touch it with a 10ft pole.

May I ask what are those flags? maybe there are something I dont know yet about them, so far I dont think there are more than enough of those red flags...

[Rannasha]

How many people have actually reached profit zone using Bitcoin trader?

Probably hundreds did. Consider that just a fraction of their customers is participating in public forums and they are in their 3rd 120 day cycle now.

So how can this be a ponzi then? What kind of ponzi lets hundreds of its users to make money??? If this is a ponzi a users make money, this means that ponzi loses money.
Just does not fit.

It fits perfectly. In fact, paying out properly, at least at the start, is one of the main characteristics of a Ponzi scheme. Otherwise it'd just be a simple grab-and-run scam. As long as more new deposits come in than is withdrawn, the Ponzi-operator has an incentive to keep the operation running. The longer the operation runs and successfully pays out, the more confidence people gain in it. If many investors decide to not withdraw their money and instead leave it on the site (perhaps doing one or two test-withdrawals to ensure that that works), it doesn't require many new deposits to keep the scheme running.

However, since no actual profits are being made, at some point the scheme will grow to such a size that the amount of withdrawals starts to outpace the deposits. At this point the operator typically closes up shop, sometimes with a coverstory like the site being hacked, sometimes they just go offline without saying anything.

Ultimately, the question "do they pay out?" is an extremely poor way to decide whether something is a Ponzi scheme or not. However, Ponzi-promotors typically use this as their main argument to convince people to invest. Much better indicators are whether the organization is transparent (BT: nope), whether the profits they claim are realistic (BT: nope), whether there are no inconsistencies in their story (BT: nope), whether it makes sense that the company seeks small investments from consumers rather than VCs (BT: nope). These points are all red flags you can use to evaluate these types of operations.

The 120 day maturation period that BT uses is a clever innovation for Ponzi schemes. It serves a dual purpose. First of all, it makes the story more believable (An investment shouldn't just allow you to withdraw any amount of money at a moments notice, since your money actually has to be doing something in order to generate a profit). Secondly, it gives the operator a good picture of when possible peaks in withdrawals can be expected. Many Ponzi schemes collapse when a bankrun is started from panic due to unexpected downtime or the Ponzi being revealed. With the 120 day lockin period, people can't mass panic and withdraw.

Nevertheless, despite this clever innovation, there are more than enough red flags regarding BT to make you not want to touch it with a 10ft pole.

May I ask what are those flags? maybe there are something I dont know yet about them, so far I dont think there are more than enough of those red flags...

They're right there in my post:

Much better indicators are whether the organization is transparent (BT: nope), whether the profits they claim are realistic (BT: nope), whether there are no inconsistencies in their story (BT: nope), whether it makes sense that the company seeks small investments from consumers rather than VCs (BT: nope).

The reasoning behind these I've posted in detail in this thread in the other about BT (and none of the Ponzi-promotors has found it necessary to argue against them, instead just ignoring them), so you can look it up if you want.

[roparker2014]

What it is important to remember, I feel, is that just as very few things in life are black or white, it is not necessarily true that a fund like this is either a ponzi, or legit - it could well be a mixture of both. Imagine a spectrum, with "outright ponzi, earning no money" on one end, and "legit investment fund generating 100% of its profits" on the other.
Something like BT could conceivably operate in the middle ground -  it makes legit profits, to some extent (whatever that may be) but when it has bad days, it props up the payments with investors' funds.
A fund that's run in this way is likely to outlast outright ponzis, I would think. How long, depends on exactly what point of the spectrum it sits, and how tempted the admin get to set the slider towards "ponzi" when profits aren't forthcoming.

[PinkPanther99]

The BT group on facebook as a whole is rather suspicious.. I have been a member of the group for quite some time now, and in the past few weeks the member count has practically doubled, yet it seems to be the same people participating in discussion over and over again.

Now with a group that contains 900+ members, dont you think the discussion would be a little more diverse in faces?

Upon browsing through the new member list, the majority of members added seem to be just sock puppet accounts.. one picture, one location and only seem to be interested in Bitcoin Trader.

Not to mention, I find it a little odd that the people who have given "Testimonials" on the BT website are no where to be seen in this said group... 

[PinkPanther99]

Actually, scratch that testimonials comment.. If you want to see something amusing, copy and paste one of the testimonials into google... 

[Minerjoe]

The BT group on facebook as a whole is rather suspicious.. I have been a member of the group for quite some time now, and in the past few weeks the member count has practically doubled, yet it seems to be the same people participating in discussion over and over again.

Now with a group that contains 900+ members, dont you think the discussion would be a little more diverse in faces?

Upon browsing through the new member list, the majority of members added seem to be just sock puppet accounts.. one picture, one location and only seem to be interested in Bitcoin Trader.

Not to mention, I find it a little odd that the people who have given "Testimonials" on the BT website are no where to be seen in this said group... 

What is so strange about it? I am one of these fake Facebook accounts who joined that group. I just do not feel my close friends being exposed to Bitcoin world until I am 100% sure this is profitable. Also, crypto is all about privacy, I see no reason why I would destroy this entire concept by posting my BTC involvement on my social accounts.

[Pheoxy92]

How many people have actually reached profit zone using Bitcoin trader?

I did but I never reinvested the money so I got around 70 % pure profit on 120 days
I invested 598 and got out 1069, but I am unsure how long it will last (I do belive it’s a Ponzi, first in makes money the rest will lose money that’s why I don’t want to reinvest in it again, even do it can go on for years, better safe than sorry)

[Minerjoe]

How many people have actually reached profit zone using Bitcoin trader?

I did but I never reinvested the money so I got around 70 % pure profit on 120 days
I invested 598 and got out 1069, but I am unsure how long it will last (I do belive it’s a Ponzi, first in makes money the rest will lose money that’s why I don’t want to reinvest in it again, even do it can go on for years, better safe than sorry)

Thx for the info.

[PinkPanther99]

The BT group on facebook as a whole is rather suspicious.. I have been a member of the group for quite some time now, and in the past few weeks the member count has practically doubled, yet it seems to be the same people participating in discussion over and over again.

Now with a group that contains 900+ members, dont you think the discussion would be a little more diverse in faces?

Upon browsing through the new member list, the majority of members added seem to be just sock puppet accounts.. one picture, one location and only seem to be interested in Bitcoin Trader.

Not to mention, I find it a little odd that the people who have given "Testimonials" on the BT website are no where to be seen in this said group... 

What is so strange about it? I am one of these fake Facebook accounts who joined that group. I just do not feel my close friends being exposed to Bitcoin world until I am 100% sure this is profitable. Also, crypto is all about privacy, I see no reason why I would destroy this entire concept by posting my BTC involvement on my social accounts.

It appears you have misread my post, I said "majority" not "all". I understand people want to maintain their privacy. I for one am also in that category, however it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that 75% of that group is more than likely sock puppet accounts.

[blackhathasher]

as everyone complains about things being suspicious....

i am making and withdrawing money daily.


-just don't invest more than you can comfortably lose and be smart.

[vipgelsi]

as everyone complains about things being suspicious....

i am making and withdrawing money daily.


-just don't invest more than you can comfortably lose and be smart.

+1

[sunny1]

as everyone complains about things being suspicious....

i am making and withdrawing money daily.


-just don't invest more than you can comfortably lose and be smart.

me too 

[Rannasha]

as everyone complains about things being suspicious....

i am making and withdrawing money daily.

As was stated many times before "things being suspicious" and "withdrawing money daily" are not mutually exclusive when it comes to ponzi schemes. In fact, the combination is pretty much required.

But then again, all you ponzi-promotors seem to do is to keep pushing this same boring argument over and over again without actually debating the reasons why the whole operation is suspicious (that's a weak term, by the way).

It does make me wonder which of the "investors" / ponzi-promotors are still convinced that BT is legit and which of them know it's a ponzi scheme (or at least have strong suspicions), but still carry on with the promotion to get the most out of their money.

[vipgelsi]

Just Posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWJ9AWzc5h0&feature=youtu.be

[cozytrade]

Regarding arbitrage i have explained it before on this forum, in short you never move fund from one exchange to other. Think that you can only trade in both, in that case you only need prices to vary on both exchanges. Challenge yourself and try to figure it out.

You only consider one price against other, I'm doing that myself but there are lot of space for optimization, and that's the hardest part.

So you think bitcoin-trader.biz is optimising hardest part? Sorry missing the point.

[blackhathasher]

Regarding arbitrage i have explained it before on this forum, in short you never move fund from one exchange to other. Think that you can only trade in both, in that case you only need prices to vary on both exchanges. Challenge yourself and try to figure it out.
You only consider one price against other, I'm doing that myself but there are lot of space for optimization, and that's the hardest part.

So you think bitcoin-trader.biz is optimising hardest part? Sorry missing the point.

what Vach is saying here (and getting wrong btw) is that he is alluding that arbitrage traders NEVER move funds between accounts and that's just patently wrong.

the way REAL arbitrage works is by putting funds in multiple currencies into different exchanges like such;

Coinbase = $5000USD / 10BTC
Bitstamp = $5000USD / 10BTC
etc... etc...

when coinbase has BTC for say $510 and bitstamp has BTC for $500 the arbitrage trader sells 1BTC for $510 on coinbase and buys 1BTC on bitstamp for $500, with a net gain of $10, and so on and so forth...

thats how arbitrage works and it can be done with multiple currency pairs across an unlimited number of exchanges and can be done with altcoins in the mix as well. there is a HUGE market potential in cryptocurrency arbitrage.

the MAGIC (and what vach is missing) is that this cannot go on indefinitely. you MUST rebalance your accounts at some point in order to maintain your ability to trade. and this is where wire transfers and ACH transfers come into play.

for a trader to be really effective he has to have enough flow between banks to keep his trading accounts flush with funds. the more you have the more you can absorb slow transfers between banks.

for rebalancing the crypto accounts it is easy... we all know how fast and simple that is. but for the cash it is harder and this is the number one reason why an arbitrage trader NEEDS larges amounts of capital to work with.

trying to arbitrage on $10k would take you a million years to make any real money. arbitraging on $5m and now you got something.

the HARD part is the efficiency of your rebalancing at the end of the trading day or week or month or however long you have funds to keep you moving. the more money you have the more "efficient" you are.

[Grinder]

what Vach is saying here (and getting wrong btw) is that he is alluding that arbitrage traders NEVER move funds between accounts and that's just patently wrong.

It's not. Your way will probably work every now and then, but because it's expensive and slow and the price difference between exchanges is small, it won't be very profitable. Vachs way is better, you just don't understand what he means.

[patara66]

Did the bt-bitcointrader scam?
I wanted to pay my bitcoin address.
seems to have been sent.
but did not reflect my address.



Processor Cashout                                           $0.00    $2.00    Sep 9th, 14    Sep 10th, 14

ID: #99863, Bitcoin: 0.00427102
Address: 19g5SHavTL65d4bk7TgPzpth4yPkPCVbzL
Transaction ID: 9f8ea6edeaf14c0e507e426bbfc9f4e2c143f856f8d09950171a11d406db05a6
Notes: Manual Cashout Request

[Minerjoe]

Did the bt-bitcointrader scam?
I wanted to pay my bitcoin address.
seems to have been sent.
but did not reflect my address.



Processor Cashout                                           $0.00    $2.00    Sep 9th, 14    Sep 10th, 14

ID: #99863, Bitcoin: 0.00427102
Address: 19g5SHavTL65d4bk7TgPzpth4yPkPCVbzL
Transaction ID: 9f8ea6edeaf14c0e507e426bbfc9f4e2c143f856f8d09950171a11d406db05a6
Notes: Manual Cashout Request

Payouts are not instant. They pay once a day on business days only, usually around 7 p.m. European time. In other words, you ll get paid in about 10 hours.