Chargebacks

[jonanon]

In nearly all the posts I read regarding Bitcoin people mention that irreversible transactions are fantastic and the way forward.
 
I can understand this from the point of view of businesses but not from the point of view of the consumer. Why would people switch to start paying in BTC if they have no comeback should whatever it is they purchased not be as described or not received?

I read it all the time, people saying how they sent x thousands of $ to a random company they found on the internet in expectation that they would receive BTC in return - of course many people get ripped off and have no comeback as they are sending payments by non reversible methods.

If Bitcoin will continue to gain ground it will not only change how payments are sent and received but will change the very nature of how things are done leading to a survival of the fittest scenario where people not blessed with a large amount of common sense end up penniless and destitute.

I have read so many sob stories on this forum from people who have sent money for BTC to a company with no address listed on their site based in some backward country that it makes you think how could someone be so stupid? I have also read recently someone who sent money 3 times to the same company as each time they gave an excuse as to why they needed more? I mean come on!

Just wondering if the general consensus from long time Bitcoin users is that if someone is stupid enough to send money to a company that is so obviously not legitimate they deserve to loose their money?

[shawshankinmate37927]

I can understand this from the point of view of businesses but not from the point of view of the consumer. Why would people switch to start paying in BTC if they have no comeback should whatever it is they purchased not be as described or not received?

When using an irreversible payment method, consumers have to make a conscious effort to transact with businesses that have a solid history of being honest and trustworthy, or use escrow.  Consumers that aren't ready and willing to take on this responsibility, shouldn't be using irreversible payment methods.

Just wondering if the general consensus from long time Bitcoin users is that if someone is stupid enough to send money to a company that is so obviously not legitimate they deserve to loose their money?

Yes.  Freedom and responsibility go hand-in-hand.

[empoweoqwj]

I can understand this from the point of view of businesses but not from the point of view of the consumer. Why would people switch to start paying in BTC if they have no comeback should whatever it is they purchased not be as described or not received?

When using an irreversible payment method, consumers have to make a conscious effort to transact with businesses that have a solid history of being honest and trustworthy, or use escrow.  Consumers that aren't ready and willing to take on this responsibility, shouldn't be using irreversible payment methods.

Just wondering if the general consensus from long time Bitcoin users is that if someone is stupid enough to send money to a company that is so obviously not legitimate they deserve to loose their money?

Yes.  Freedom and responsibility go hand-in-hand.

Agree with all that. In the future, escrow-based transactions will be much more commonplace. Buyer doesn't have to trust the seller, seller doesn't have to trust the buyer, both just have to trust the escrow agent. Much better than current ebay / paypal "mess / scams" with disputed transactions.

[runam0k]

Agree with all that. In the future, escrow-based transactions will be much more commonplace. Buyer doesn't have to trust the seller, seller doesn't have to trust the buyer, both just have to trust the escrow agent. Much better than current ebay / paypal "mess / scams" with disputed transactions.

Better, perhaps, but negates the cost benefit of Bitcoin where escrow is used and a fee is charged.

[giletto]

Escrow is just a OPTION, you don't NEED to use. If you are worry about fees, trade directly with the seller/buyer.

[carolynwneal25]

yeah u are right..u can use escrow for more safe transaction

[pening]

When using an irreversible payment method, consumers have to make a conscious effort to transact with businesses that have a solid history of being honest and trustworthy, or use escrow.  Consumers that aren't ready and willing to take on this responsibility, shouldn't be using irreversible payment methods.

So lets then assume consumers aren't willing to?  Where does that leave the proposition that Bitcoin use will become widespread common currency?  I agree with the OP, chargeback is an advantage of Bitcoin that only benefits seller and as most people are buyers, the advantage is overstated.

... In the future, escrow-based transactions will be much more commonplace. Buyer doesn't have to trust the seller, seller doesn't have to trust the buyer, both just have to trust the escrow agent. Much better than current ebay / paypal "mess / scams" with disputed transactions.

You "just" have to trust the escrow agent.  Paypal is an escrow agent, and how well is that working out for disputes?  The core problem is who to trust when a consumer says goods are not received, not working or otherwise not fit for purpose.  I don't think its a problem that can be solved through changing currencies, some buyers and sellers will try to pull a fast one on the other party.

[jonanon]

It seems then that Bitcoin can be portrayed as being bad for start-up companies as they have not had time to build trust. A new company will be viewed as being high risk and will likely not get very far due to preconceived feelings that they 'must' be con men.

I think escrow most definitely is not the future - companies rely on cash flow to survive - if they have to wait until the buyer confirms receipt of an item and then wait for the escrow agent to release the funds before they actually receive them they could go out of business.

Don't get me wrong I am a fan of Bitcoin but I feel that one of the main reasons for Bitcoin - to give control back to the little guy - will do the exact opposite, where people will trade with large companies as they simply don't trust anyone else.

[empoweoqwj]

Escrow is just a OPTION, you don't NEED to use. If you are worry about fees, trade directly with the seller/buyer.

Sure if the trader is a real company or someone with a great trust rating here. If its a dude showing up on here with no trust rating only a fool would trade without escrow. There are so many rip-offs.

[empoweoqwj]

It seems then that Bitcoin can be portrayed as being bad for start-up companies as they have not had time to build trust. A new company will be viewed as being high risk and will likely not get very far due to preconceived feelings that they 'must' be con men.

I think escrow most definitely is not the future - companies rely on cash flow to survive - if they have to wait until the buyer confirms receipt of an item and then wait for the escrow agent to release the funds before they actually receive them they could go out of business.

Don't get me wrong I am a fan of Bitcoin but I feel that one of the main reasons for Bitcoin - to give control back to the little guy - will do the exact opposite, where people will trade with large companies as they simply don't trust anyone else.

I have used escrow a lot. It is very cheap and adds very little time to a typical transaction.

[guybrushthreepwood]

Interesting point OP has. One thing that has kept me from ordering anything from websites yet is the possibility of me not receiving the item etc. Would they sound out a replacement if it never turned up, or what rights would I have if they never sent it out of provided any proof of doing so?

[davedx]

It seems then that Bitcoin can be portrayed as being bad for start-up companies as they have not had time to build trust. A new company will be viewed as being high risk and will likely not get very far due to preconceived feelings that they 'must' be con men.

I think escrow most definitely is not the future - companies rely on cash flow to survive - if they have to wait until the buyer confirms receipt of an item and then wait for the escrow agent to release the funds before they actually receive them they could go out of business.

Don't get me wrong I am a fan of Bitcoin but I feel that one of the main reasons for Bitcoin - to give control back to the little guy - will do the exact opposite, where people will trade with large companies as they simply don't trust anyone else.

I'm not so sure it's so difficult. What you actually see across most businesses is invoices being paid on 30 day billing cycles, and it's incredibly common to have issues with the entities you invoice not paying on time. This is also true with B2C, hence companies usually have predefined terms for late payment fines and automated systems to deal with them.

In the Netherlands it's also common for mail and online order shops to ship you the item and hand you an invoice when it's delivered. You then have some time to pay the bill.

So I'm not sure if using Escrow is really going to create cash flow problems that companies aren't already used to dealing with.

In fact, when I think about it, a streamlined Escrow system fits very well with the existing goods delivery process: you normally sign for any items that aren't just a letter anyway to confirm the delivery company has delivered it. I think there's a nice niche here for an Escrow startup to add an additional confirmation in the "sign for the item" process, so you confirm delivery AND you release the funds to the seller at the same time. Of course for big ticket electronics you might need a short amount of time to confirm everything is working. Maybe big ticket items would work more like the example I described in the Netherlands: you have 10 days to release funds from Escrow upon receipt, otherwise you have to return the item.

[hilariousandco]

Interesting point OP has. One thing that has kept me from ordering anything from websites yet is the possibility of me not receiving the item etc. Would they sound out a replacement if it never turned up, or what rights would I have if they never sent it out of provided any proof of doing so?

It'd be bad for business if they kept doing this, so I guess it depends on what type of business they want to run. I'd always advise only buying items that come with tracked shipping.

[Aswan]

In nearly all the posts I read regarding Bitcoin people mention that irreversible transactions are fantastic and the way forward.
 
I can understand this from the point of view of businesses but not from the point of view of the consumer. Why would people switch to start paying in BTC if they have no comeback should whatever it is they purchased not be as described or not received?

I read it all the time, people saying how they sent x thousands of $ to a random company they found on the internet in expectation that they would receive BTC in return - of course many people get ripped off and have no comeback as they are sending payments by non reversible methods.

If Bitcoin will continue to gain ground it will not only change how payments are sent and received but will change the very nature of how things are done leading to a survival of the fittest scenario where people not blessed with a large amount of common sense end up penniless and destitute.

I have read so many sob stories on this forum from people who have sent money for BTC to a company with no address listed on their site based in some backward country that it makes you think how could someone be so stupid? I have also read recently someone who sent money 3 times to the same company as each time they gave an excuse as to why they needed more? I mean come on!

Just wondering if the general consensus from long time Bitcoin users is that if someone is stupid enough to send money to a company that is so obviously not legitimate they deserve to loose their money?

With no chargebacks and no transaction feed (on the receiving end), merchants will be able to offer their products much cheaper, drawing in more customers int eh process.

[GigaCoin]

In nearly all the posts I read regarding Bitcoin people mention that irreversible transactions are fantastic and the way forward.
 
I can understand this from the point of view of businesses but not from the point of view of the consumer. Why would people switch to start paying in BTC if they have no comeback should whatever it is they purchased not be as described or not received?

I read it all the time, people saying how they sent x thousands of $ to a random company they found on the internet in expectation that they would receive BTC in return - of course many people get ripped off and have no comeback as they are sending payments by non reversible methods.

If Bitcoin will continue to gain ground it will not only change how payments are sent and received but will change the very nature of how things are done leading to a survival of the fittest scenario where people not blessed with a large amount of common sense end up penniless and destitute.

I have read so many sob stories on this forum from people who have sent money for BTC to a company with no address listed on their site based in some backward country that it makes you think how could someone be so stupid? I have also read recently someone who sent money 3 times to the same company as each time they gave an excuse as to why they needed more? I mean come on!

Just wondering if the general consensus from long time Bitcoin users is that if someone is stupid enough to send money to a company that is so obviously not legitimate they deserve to loose their money?

Large scale escrow is the solution but then again this will add a lot to overall fees

[zagerfish]

The irreversible nature of bitcoin is great for people in third world countries like Nigeria who can't normally order via credit card online because of all the credit card fraud going on.

The lack of a discount fee should also allow merchants to set lower prices for people who pay in bitcoin.

___________________________________
Get 420 with bitcoins at zeltasgarden.com

[empoweoqwj]

The irreversible nature of bitcoin is great for people in third world countries like Nigeria who can't normally order via credit card online because of all the credit card fraud going on.

The lack of a discount fee should also allow merchants to set lower prices for people who pay in bitcoin.

___________________________________
Get 420 with bitcoins at zeltasgarden.com

Great point. And it applies to a huge number of countries. Credit card companies turn down huge amounts of business because of risk. This means merchants lose business, customers don't get the goods. Bitcoin solves this.

[Bitcoinpro]

they will refund you the coin by sending it back 

how business normally make refunds

[guybrushthreepwood]

they will refund you the coin by sending it back 

how business normally make refunds

I think businesses normally try and avoid this if possible. First port of call would be to send out a replacement.

[Romyen]

A chargeback system doesn't necessarily protect the consumer. Here's a link explaining why porn industry merchants prefer credit cards.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=392310.0;topicseen