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Author Topic: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread  (Read 1202436 times)
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helloge
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March 29, 2014, 03:55:46 PM
 #6441

I think the current price is still a bit high  until the open of web wallet. Smiley

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March 29, 2014, 04:25:58 PM
 #6442

I think the current price is still a bit high  until the open of web wallet. Smiley


in the old days (1990s) VCs in the valley used to value companies at $1m per developer, given inflation, I would say that the price is a bit undervalued at this stage.

I would say the valuation should be somewhere in the $10M range and not higher.  The lower amount partially b/c this is a decentralized effort with no real business development people to actually engage partners - as you can see from the recent shitstorm with LukeJr.

if this actually had a CEO type and some Head of BizDev, LukeJr and the rest of the Bitcoin dev team would have been treated in a more partner oriented fashion rather than devolving into monkey's throwing poo at each other.




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March 29, 2014, 04:34:48 PM
 #6443

OP_RETURN can be used to store references to external resources, say for example very long meta transactions that don't fit into 40 byte, an asset contract or whatever. The storage pointed to could be a website which lists something like <hash_used_in_op_return_tx><very_long_message> (for the sake of an example), a side chain or a P2P structure like a DHT. To my knowledge this was discussed several times, but never tested on a broader scale.

You know, an interesting question to ask yourself is if it's totally ok to just embed a hash of the actual data in the blockchain, and rely on the data itself being made available by some DHT or something, why can't Bitcoin itself do that to make blocks smaller and improve scalability?

Remember that Bitcoin would work just fine if miners didn't validate transactions if clients implemented client-side validation, as is done in Mastercoin and Counterparty, and to a lesser extent, Colored Coins. What's so special about actually putting those tx's in the block?

+1000 awesome point. 

Agreed. An excellent point. Thank you Peter.

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March 29, 2014, 04:40:39 PM
 #6444

An interesting introduction to the Chord and Kademilia algorithms is by a bitcoin developer here: http://offthelip.org/?p=149

Hey, thanks for the link. I read a few wikipedia articles, the BitTorrent things and searched the forum + mailing list, nothing really worth to share though. I heard Mike Hearn recommended TomP2P and if you are looking for an easy implementation in Python or C#, there you go. Smiley Edit: FreePasteryTutorial might be worth to look at, too.

You know, an interesting question to ask yourself is if it's totally ok to just embed a hash of the actual data in the blockchain, and rely on the data itself being made available by some DHT or something, why can't Bitcoin itself do that to make blocks smaller and improve scalability?

Remember that Bitcoin would work just fine if miners didn't validate transactions if clients implemented client-side validation, as is done in Mastercoin and Counterparty, and to a lesser extent, Colored Coins. What's so special about actually putting those tx's in the block?

Availability of all messages to reconstruct the latest state, right? At least that's the problem I see. To a lesser extend: each client must have at least access to the full chain of all transactions that involves one of his wallets to reconstruct his final balance and this is not necessarily given by a DHT. Altering of messages could be avoided, if OP_RETURN hash == key == H(message).

Despite that, I'm still fascinated by the idea of on overnet, slightly related: if there were a mechanism of easy communication, people could send around CoinJoin transactions, establish channels for micropayments or open a communication line for multisig signing in general.

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March 29, 2014, 05:28:32 PM
 #6445

Here's in case you wanted to take the conversation on the topic of OP_RETURN, Counterparty and what should and should not be allowed on the blockchain to a wider audience.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=543181.0

Realistically, I don't think this is going to help at this stage.

I agree.

what do you think will?

Your mom, if she can code.


Moving to Dogecoin

Bellebite the troll has been on my ignore list for weeks, so to make sure I am not getting his filth on my screen. I suggest doing the same
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March 29, 2014, 06:03:19 PM
 #6446

how do i fund the wallet on testnet?

This is the easiest way to fund a testnet wallet. After the bitcoins arrive you can burn them for test XCP.

https://tpfaucet.appspot.com/

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March 29, 2014, 06:20:39 PM
 #6447

An interesting introduction to the Chord and Kademilia algorithms is by a bitcoin developer here: http://offthelip.org/?p=149

Hey, thanks for the link. I read a few wikipedia articles, the BitTorrent things and searched the forum + mailing list, nothing really worth to share though. I heard Mike Hearn recommended TomP2P and if you are looking for an easy implementation in Python or C#, there you go. Smiley Edit: FreePasteryTutorial might be worth to look at, too.

It's worth searching through the #bitcoin-dev and #bitcoin-wizards irc logs for "DHT" - the Bitcoin development community considers them a joke for anything requiring security against adversaries, or even just good reliability in general:

Quote
#bitcoin-dev/13/03/13-03-10.log:20:00 < Scrat> DHT makes your hair fall

#bitcoin-dev/13/03/13-03-10.log:20:02 < sipa> < gmaxwell> Someday I'm going to get myself invited to some conference with the president, and while he's talking about some middle east conflict thing— I'm going to ask if they've considered using a DHT.

#bitcoin-dev/13/05/13-05-07.log:15:51 < cjd> DHTs are annoying, they are just so pitifully attackable that in general one should avoid using them if at all possible

#bitcoin-dev/13/05/13-05-07.log:15:57 < sipa> gmaxwell: next time some suggests a DHT, tell them this is outdated technology... all the fancy kids on the block now use DH Rainbow Tables

#bitcoin-dev/13/05/13-05-07.log:15:58 <@gmaxwell> cjd: I think people mostly know that "TheCloud" is a ... at least a big vague. But basically every discussion about Bitcoin communications challenges has someone wade in and say "I KNOW GUIS! LETS US A DHT!"

#bitcoin-dev/13/06/13-06-12.log:13:14 <@jgarzik> I need to get on Cafe Press or somewhere that has an online t-shirt shop.  Need shirts and coffee mugs with taglines like "DHT will fix it" or "have DHT, will travel"

#bitcoin-dev/13/10/13-10-07.log:17:05 < phantomcircuit> a naive DHT is not even remotely censorship resistant
#bitcoin-dev/13/10/13-10-07.log:17:05 < phantomcircuit> im actually fairly surprised the RIAA/MPAA haven't hired someone to fill the bittorrent DHT with nonsense yet
#

Quote
#bitcoin-wizards/13/03/13-03-06.log:23:41 < nanotube> jgarzik: if you want to troll gmaxwell, you have to mention DHTs, at least. Smiley
#bitcoin-wizards/13/03/13-03-06.log:23:42 < amiller> did someone mention dhts

#bitcoin-wizards/13/11/13-11-27.log:05:26 < gmaxwell> nah not you.. sorry, like, I've developed a pratice of reflexively ignoring anyone who says DHT. It's usually invoked by people who encounter a problem they don't understand and it really means "magical distributed thingy". Like early physicists invoking god when they encountered something they couldn't explain.

#bitcoin-wizards/13/11/13-11-27.log:05:33 < adam3us> dht's usuall have extremely poor even non-hostile user characteristics, dht in a byzantine threat environment with real money on the line
#bitcoin-wizards/13/11/13-11-27.log:05:35 < gmaxwell> yea, dht's basically appear to be unworkable in an adversarial enviroment.
#bitcoin-wizards/13/11/13-11-27.log:05:42 < gmaxwell> mappum: bittorrent dht is mostly fail, it works .. kinda.. for very large swarms that can also do peer exchange, but mostly it just ends up helping people find other trackers. For small swarms it'll often spin finding nothing even when its not getting attacked.
#bitcoin-wizards/13/11/13-11-27.log:05:43 < midnightmagic> you're never getting away from dhts are you
#bitcoin-wizards/13/11/13-11-27.log:05:45 < gmaxwell> But there was a period of time when we couldn't go days without someone joing #bitcoin-dev and responding to the very first thing they heard with USE A DHT.
#bitcoin-wizards/13/11/13-11-27.log:05:45 < midnightmagic> mappum: the endless, endless stream of users who come in to #bitcoin and insist we adopt dht rather than dns/irc for initial peer discovery is really astounding. it's jsut a running joke is all. no worries man.
#bitcoin-wizards/13/11/13-11-27.log:05:46 < petertodd> mappum: pro-tip: suggest fidelity bonds instead, like a fidelity-bonded DHT
#bitcoin-wizards/13/11/13-11-27.log:05:46 < gmaxwell> or instead of *, you name a technical challenge we've had in the bitcoin ecosystem and someone has suggested a DHT to solve it.
#bitcoin-wizards/13/11/13-11-27.log:05:46 < gmaxwell> Signature validation slow?  Use a DHT.   etc.

#bitcoin-wizards/13/12/13-12-19.log:22:43 <@gmaxwell> I would certantly be happy if DHTs were the magical tools people often assume they are. The more systems that get built which fail obviously when the DHT doesn't work the more likely people will work out the issues.

#bitcoin-wizards/14/02/14-02-23.log:21:57 < gmaxwell> DHT has suffered waves of amazing hype, but generally been an actual engineering failure because of poor performance when not contructed out of spherical cows. Smiley By itself this isn't so bad, but because of the use of it in torrent (even where it actually doesn't work much of the time when you'd need it) it's often invoked by people who can't even understand explinations about why it wouldn't apply or wouldn't work for whatever ...
#bitcoin-wizards/14/02/14-02-23.log:21:58 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: i actually had a person on PM -today- asking why an alt couldn't just use a DHT to use consensus

#bitcoin-wizards/14/03/14-03-11.log:14:46 < gmaxwell> maybe there is indeed a way to use an anonymous consensus to undo some of the traditional DHT failsauce unreliability... but so far I've not seen any serious work. I think perhaps until we have some better language for abstractions about this stuff it will be too complicated to reason about. Sad
#bitcoin-wizards/14/03/14-03-11.log:14:46 < Luke-Jr> much DHT

You know, an interesting question to ask yourself is if it's totally ok to just embed a hash of the actual data in the blockchain, and rely on the data itself being made available by some DHT or something, why can't Bitcoin itself do that to make blocks smaller and improve scalability?

Remember that Bitcoin would work just fine if miners didn't validate transactions if clients implemented client-side validation, as is done in Mastercoin and Counterparty, and to a lesser extent, Colored Coins. What's so special about actually putting those tx's in the block?

Availability of all messages to reconstruct the latest state, right? At least that's the problem I see. To a lesser extend: each client must have at least access to the full chain of all transactions that involves one of his wallets to reconstruct his final balance and this is not necessarily given by a DHT. Altering of messages could be avoided, if OP_RETURN hash == key == H(message).

Despite that, I'm still fascinated by the idea of on overnet, slightly related: if there were a mechanism of easy communication, people could send around CoinJoin transactions, establish channels for micropayments or open a communication line for multisig signing in general.

And not just availability, but guaranteed availability with specific time limits. Basically, in a financial application it's not good enough to just have the message eventually get to the desired recipients - you need it to be guaranteed (with high probability) to either get to them in a certain amount of time or for the message to be considered invalid. (and detectably so) Blockchains due this because they're a genuine proof that messages were published, side-chains don't.

That said, if you're just trying to, say, make a decentralized mailing list or something with good anti-censorship properties side-chains are probably just fine as you can always have the user's client handle censorship reactively, e.g. by retrying the message. Having a fallback to insert-in-blockchain available as a last resort is good too, and may discourage censors from trying in the first place. But Counterparty, Mastercoin, and Colored Coins are all financial applications and need much better censorship resistance and time guarantees than that.

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March 29, 2014, 07:04:55 PM
 #6448

Cross-post from Counterparty forums: https://forums.counterparty.co/index.php/topic,208

Please keep the discussion of this topic on that thread.
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March 29, 2014, 07:41:28 PM
 #6449

Peter, I'm not sure what DHT and OP_RETURN have to do with side chains.

I'm an independent developer working on bitcoin-core, making my living off community donations.
If you like my work, please consider donating yourself: 13snZ4ZyCzaL7358SmgvHGC9AxskqumNxP
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March 29, 2014, 07:49:52 PM
 #6450

"magical distributed thingy"

Well, that explains the reaction I recently received on IRC. Wink

Nevertheless, the focus was on "storing data outside of the blockchain" and I mentioned DHTs only as one way to do it (or not to do it). Are you dismissing this concept as a whole?

Asking "why Bitcoin instead of X" is actually a good question.

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March 29, 2014, 08:39:20 PM
 #6451

AuroroCoin attacked:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=546338.0
Just a cautionary note about moving to other PoW chains with low hash rate.
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March 29, 2014, 09:20:07 PM
 #6452

does anyone know if publishing a feed has an xcp cost?

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PhantomPhreak
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March 29, 2014, 09:21:46 PM
 #6453

does anyone know if publishing a feed has an xcp cost?

It has none.
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March 29, 2014, 11:20:06 PM
 #6454

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpwhT63EkZ4  Decentralized Applications - the future of Bitcoin  @ coin summit. Not interesting technically but from a point of how mainstream perception can and will be shaped.
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March 30, 2014, 06:47:18 AM
 #6455

As someone who is heavily invested in counterparty, and not invested in any other project currently, having read that nxt can do 100s of transactions a second, I wonder how much of an edge that project has and what if any security risks the nxt protocol has .....

DayTrade with less exposure to risk, by setting buy and sell spreads with CabTrader v2, buy now @ crypto-folio.com
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March 30, 2014, 07:19:00 AM
 #6456

Burn XCP with online wallet blockchian.info.
want to send the XCP to others.
Anyone help to instruct how to deal with it?
Thanks.
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March 30, 2014, 07:27:37 AM
 #6457

Burn XCP with online wallet blockchian.info.
want to send the XCP to others.
Anyone help to instruct how to deal with it?
Thanks.
You can follow the instructions here and setup the client
http://goo.gl/z5algZ
(created by HalfCab)
or if you want it easier, wait a week or two for the release of the WebClient.
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March 30, 2014, 07:33:19 AM
 #6458

Burn XCP with online wallet blockchian.info.
want to send the XCP to others.
Anyone help to instruct how to deal with it?
Thanks.
You can follow the instructions here and setup the client
http://goo.gl/z5algZ
(created by HalfCab)
or if you want it easier, wait a week or two for the release of the WebClient.
thank you,kdrop22 Smiley
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March 30, 2014, 07:38:08 AM
 #6459

Burn XCP with online wallet blockchian.info.
want to send the XCP to others.
Anyone help to instruct how to deal with it?
Thanks.
You can follow the instructions here and setup the client
http://goo.gl/z5algZ
(created by HalfCab)
or if you want it easier, wait a week or two for the release of the WebClient.
thank you,kdrop22 Smiley

If you have any questions, suggestions, or complaints concerning the tutorial please let me know Smiley

DayTrade with less exposure to risk, by setting buy and sell spreads with CabTrader v2, buy now @ crypto-folio.com
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March 30, 2014, 08:01:56 AM
 #6460

Would it be accurate to say that Counterparty is a decentralized equivalent to ripple as a protocol for exchanging iou's?
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