[ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread

[sparta_cuss]

WTF
Peter Todd saying XCP devs should go to jail...
https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/524947758528999424

Note that he Ironically said later that He is not tied with Clearinghouse, just a simple consultant.
He is panicking or what ?

It's a joke. Reread it.

I was confused, too. I had to read his responses in Reddit to understand his implicit argument that actually supports Counterparty as a technical innovation.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2k055g/regulators_would_be_smart_to_shutdown/

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[krach]

Code:

exists in any DEx

If a share,asset, or token is considered a derivative then yes. bitpotatochips and bitcurry and please dont use the word deriative instead use some 3-4 word name. Just because something exsits in XY or Z doenst mean you should accept it or that it is ok or even good.

Counterparty clone, like Viacoin did.

One main point is that the community of viacoin and clearinghouse are the same, no piggyback, no sudden OP RETURN shortening ect

And again, this points to the great strength of Counterparty: its ability to natively use BTC without any redirection or derivatives.

I agree

Still though the guy(s) who made Dogeparty are receiving a lot of attention (and possibly some wealth) for basically copying and pasting Counterparty code.  That was pretty much my point.

I agree and am asking if there isnt some counterparty dogeparty dev team overlap.


I have no problem with anyone forking any project and not changing one line of code and still doing it better.

[Matt Y]

There is no overlap in the development teams of the Dogeparty and Counterparty protocols.

[krach]

There is no overlap in the development teams of the Dogeparty and Counterparty protocols.

ok thanks for clarifcation

[deliciousowl]

From "I'm Gavin Andresen, Chief Scientist at the Bitcoin Foundation. Ask me anything!" at http://reddit.com/r/Bitcoin

[–]GrounBEEFtaxi 31 points 1 day ago
Gavin, what is your take on the counterparty/overstock cryptosecurities project. I truly believe this might be the grand project that truly challenges wall street. Thoughts?

[–]gavinandresen 31 points 1 day ago
Really really interesting.
A lot will depend on how the SEC (or similar regulatory agencies overseas) reacts, I think.

---

[–]maraoz 30 points 1 day ago
Hey Gavin, great respect for your amazing work. What are your thoughts on non-financial transactions or uses of the bitcoin blockchain? (e.g counterparty, colored coins, proof of existence, etc.)

[–]gavinandresen 61 points 1 day ago
I'm excited about the possibilities. I think a lot of projects unnecessarily mix up the various services the blockchain provides, and try to make it do things it is not good at doing (like storing data). I think the best projects understand that they don't need to invent a new currency. They don't need to use the blockchain as their long-term data storage solution. And they don't need to use the p2p network as their communication mechanism.

They should use the blockchain as the world's most secure distributed ledger.

---

[–]socium 7 points 1 day ago

What would you say about storing digests in OP_RETURN (as long as they don't exceed the 40bytes max size) ?

[–]gavinandresen 14 points 1 day ago

That is what OP_RETURN is for, go for it!

[baddw]

Code:

exists in any DEx

If a share,asset, or token is considered a derivative then yes. bitpotatochips and bitcurry and please dont use the word deriative instead use some 3-4 word name. Just because something exsits in XY or Z doenst mean you should accept it or that it is ok or even good.

Any DEx that is not natively integrated into the blockchain of a given token will have to use derivatives of that token for trades on the exchange.  Since Counterparty has native integration of Bitcoin, Bitcoin can be traded directly on the Counterparty DEx.  But if you want to trade Litecoin on the Counterparty DEx, or you want to trade BTC on the Dogeparty DEx, you will have to use derivative tokens that are pegged to the underlying currency/security.  It's a fundamental limitation, not just something that's done because we can.

Counterparty clone, like Viacoin did.

One main point is that the community of viacoin and clearinghouse are the same, no piggyback, no sudden OP RETURN shortening ect

And again, why do this when there are other, better, faster open-source DEx alternatives out there that do not rely on the kludginess of Counterparty?

It's like, say, somebody built a railroad system.  A wonderful system of rails and trains that goes everywhere and is used daily by millions of people.  (This is Bitcoin.)

And then somebody comes along and says "You know what, I can figure out a way to make these trains fly in the air!" and they do so, and it's wonderful and it makes the trains much better but they can still run on the old rails too, and the people who want to just ride the regular trains still can do so.  (This is Counterparty.)

And then somebody else comes along and builds a whole new system of rails and trains, and makes those trains fly too, instead of just building a normal airplane, which would in many ways be better and more versatile than flying trains, which are still tied to the rails at the end of the day.  (This is Viacoin.)

So it's "Flying trains that use the existing rails and train stations" (BTC+XCP) vs. "Airplanes that use airports" (BTSX, etc.) vs. "Flying trains that use a whole new set of rails and train stations which are incompatible with the previous rails and train stations" (Viacoin). 

Oh, and the rails and train stations for the new system are going to be pre-sold and I'm going to make a lot of money on them.  Haha.

[deliciousowl]

lol... I noticed that too ^^

way to contradict yourself..

Do you mean his tweet? That was a joke 

[lonsharim]

WTF
Peter Todd saying XCP devs should go to jail...
https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/524947758528999424

Note that he Ironically said later that He is not tied with Clearinghouse, just a simple consultant.
He is panicking or what ?

It's a joke. Reread it.

Sounds like a back handed compliment.

[GeminiSimba]

WTF
Peter Todd saying XCP devs should go to jail...
https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/524947758528999424

Note that he Ironically said later that He is not tied with Clearinghouse, just a simple consultant.
He is panicking or what ?

It's a joke. Reread it.

Sounds like a back handed compliment.

Yeah after seeing his message it's a very intelligent joke seemingly making fun of sidechain technology more than counterparty.

[PhantomPhreak]

WTF
Peter Todd saying XCP devs should go to jail...
https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/524947758528999424

Note that he Ironically said later that He is not tied with Clearinghouse, just a simple consultant.
He is panicking or what ?

It's a joke. Reread it.

Sounds like a back handed compliment.

Yeah after seeing his message it's a very intelligent joke seemingly making fun of sidechain technology more than counterparty.

He's being ironic. We didn't do anything with the creation of XCP that wasn't also done with BTC. And it goes without saying that no one could shut down Counterparty without also banning Bitcoin itself!

[Fernandez]

The bashing of viacoin makes zero sense because:

Fact 4.  Viacoin implements BTC core devs' suggestion that Counterparty get its own blockchain and stop parasitizing theirs.

Simply read the core dev comments about blockchain spam, and for that matter the dogecoin devs comments about blockchain spam as well.

IIRC, they changed their attitudes positively towards Counterparty recently. Those kinds of comments now only come from competing projects.

They had to with Bitcoin tanking and Overstock putting Counterparty on the map. I won't be surprised if they implement the 80kB OP_RETURN soon.

[baddw]

The bashing of viacoin makes zero sense because:

Fact 4.  Viacoin implements BTC core devs' suggestion that Counterparty get its own blockchain and stop parasitizing theirs.

Simply read the core dev comments about blockchain spam, and for that matter the dogecoin devs comments about blockchain spam as well.

IIRC, they changed their attitudes positively towards Counterparty recently. Those kinds of comments now only come from competing projects.

They had to with Bitcoin tanking and Overstock putting Counterparty on the map. I won't be surprised if they implement the 80kB OP_RETURN soon.

80kB?  LOL, that would be pretty big.  We don't want to store PNG images or XML documents in the blockchain, just a little financial data.

[TechGen]

Clearinghouse is not on Bitcoin. You're either on Bitcoin or you're not and Clearinghouse is not. It could be made to work with Bitcoin because Clearinghouse is a clone of Counterparty, but then, Counterparty is already on Bitcoin. If being on Bitcoin were not such a huge advantage the Counterparty developers could move it to another chain in a day or so. They won't because there is absolutely no reason to be on another chain, but it is possible. Any flexibility and security feature that Clearinghouse has, it has because the Counterparty developers wrote the code and open sourced it on GitHub so that other people could use it as well.

There are  plenty of reasons to be on another chain.  Faster blocks, friendly relations with chain devs, quicker/better implementation of new features/bugfixes/etc.

Your absolute denial of them makes your position less reasonable and thus weaker, not stronger.

As for the forced choice between "either on Bitcoin or you're not"...treechains are coming!

http://bitcointlv.com/en/Agenda/Day-2-October-20

Yes, this is what I'm learning. I will say for certain, I know that a big social gaming co might be the first to make this jump to clearinghouse. From what I'm told, they simply weren't happy with counterparty for whatever reason. Though they haven't ruled out counterparty, they seem to be more intrigued with clearinghouse. I have no idea when this will happen, but I'm told the first move will be merging a type of betting game on the platform as an experiment. I was also told that they are even exploring offering company shares through the platform as well. Meanwhile, I'm still just sitting here trying to figure it all out.

Is there any way of proving this whatsoever?

I'm gathering more details as we speak.

[Xypro]

I had to register just to ask this. Can you guys please fix or address the decentralized exchange in Counterwallet? It's nigh unusable at the moment.

It is possible to tie a sellers coins up for 3+ hours and sometimes more, if a person buys an order and then logs out of Counterwallet, the BTCpay will simply remain in an unconfirmed state and hold the sellers coin/asset in escrow indefinitely, until it cancels. The only option for the seller is to cancel his order at a fee, or wait an indeterminate amount of time for the order to expire. This is completely unfair and opens the door to serious gaming, which is already happening.

At least one seller has been gaming the market and indefinitely tying up other sellers coins. He lists his own XCP at 15% higher than poloniex and bter, anyone who sells under him gets their orders "bought" by him, and held in escrow so they are off the order list entirely, leaving only his inflated coins to buy. Whoever does this has 2-3 BTC wallets and has been holding other sellers funds via this logout method for days now, while he trades his own BTC/XCP to himself to distort the market value and try to catch some noob willing to pay too much.

Please address this issue, or make a public announcement that the exchange should not be used until this can be amended, because all it does is cause pure frustration and ties my coins up in limbo for hours unless I pay to cancel my order. I still have 0.1 BTC floating aruond somewhere that hasn't been returned from a 4 day old order. Of all the orders I've put up, only 6% have actually gone through. 94% have expired. It's ridiculous and should not be open in its current state.

All this exchange will do is scare off new people if that's their first experience with counterwallet. I've already seen 5-6 new people complaining about the exchange and about this glitch since I started reading chat a lot, just over a week ago. If the userbase picks up and newcomers think they can do arbitrage or something and place orders once they see that they've "sold" their coins, there will be some pissed off folk. I really like counterparty don't get me wrong, the exchange is just busted as hell and being gamed by 1-2 jerks.

[baddw]

I had to register just to ask this. Can you guys please fix or address the decentralized exchange in Counterwallet? It's nigh unusable at the moment.

It is possible to tie a sellers coins up for 3+ hours and sometimes more, if a person buys an order and then logs out of Counterwallet, the BTCpay will simply remain in an unconfirmed state and hold the sellers coin/asset in escrow indefinitely, until it cancels. The only option for the seller is to cancel his order at a fee, or wait an indeterminate amount of time for the order to expire. This is completely unfair and opens the door to serious gaming, which is already happening.

At least one seller has been gaming the market and indefinitely tying up other sellers coins. He lists his own XCP at 15% higher than poloniex and bter, anyone who sells under him gets their orders "bought" by him, and held in escrow so they are off the order list entirely, leaving only his inflated coins to buy. Whoever does this has 2-3 BTC wallets and has been holding other sellers funds via this logout method for days now, while he trades his own BTC/XCP to himself to distort the market value and try to catch some noob willing to pay too much.

Please address this issue, or make a public announcement that the exchange should not be used until this can be amended, because all it does is cause pure frustration and ties my coins up in limbo for hours unless I pay to cancel my order. I still have 0.1 BTC floating aruond somewhere that hasn't been returned from a 4 day old order. Of all the orders I've put up, only 6% have actually gone through. 94% have expired. It's ridiculous and should not be open in its current state.

All this exchange will do is scare off new people if that's their first experience with counterwallet. I've already seen 5-6 new people complaining about the exchange and about this glitch since I started reading chat a lot, just over a week ago. If the userbase picks up and newcomers think they can do arbitrage or something and place orders once they see that they've "sold" their coins, there will be some pissed off folk. I really like counterparty don't get me wrong, the exchange is just busted as hell and being gamed by 1-2 jerks.

The developers are very aware of the problems with BTCPay in the DEX (although it is interesting to hear them spelled out in detail).  That is the reason why at the top of the Counterwallet, there is the notice: "The easiest way to buy XCP is to use Quick Buy in Counterwallet. For traditional exchanges, click here."  Buying XCP with BTC should be done using Vennd (Quick Buy), and selling XCP for BTC should be done using a centralized exchange.  IIRC, they announced a while ago that they are working on a solution to the BTCPay issue.

Buying and selling assets for XCP, on the other hand, works pretty well.

Honestly, I'm quite disappointed with CP, right now this is no competition to a centralized exchange.

When trading with BTC, indeed. But if you tray XCP trading, you'll be impressed

We're aware of the difficulties with BTC-based trades. As stated earlier, BTC-based trading will be greatly improved over the next 2-4 weeks, due to our enhanced BTC auto-escrow system we'll be adding into Counterwallet.

Can you give me any pointers to why my (now two) open orders aren't being filled even though the bids are still there in the orderbook? One of them will expire in two days and I will lose the transaction fee for nothing. Next time I will use XCP for sure but now I don't want to give up on these transaction and lose 2xfees + conversion fees into XCP

Your order is this?

My Open Orders
Type   Price [BTC/SWARMPRE]   Amount [SWARMPRE]   Total BTC   Completion   Action
SELL   0.000182   1417.58131869   0.2579998   3.73%   Cancel

Are you sure its not in buy orders? But anyway there read SELL in open orders but amount is really near this buy order..
0.000182   1472.52747253   0.268

No, that's a sell order that I placed to fill the buy order of the same amount in the orderbook. For a while it seemed like 3.73% of it would be filled but that got eventually cancelled too.

And a while ago I placed another order to fill the bid at 0.000191 but it's in the same situation

My Open Orders
Type   Price [BTC/SWARMPRE]   Amount [SWARMPRE]   Total BTC   Completion   Action
SELL   0.000191   356.01989528   0.0679998   0.00%   Cancel
SELL   0.000182   1472.52747253   0.268   0.00%   Cancel

It is broken.  I also have sell orders at those prices.  The part that sucks is I have never received compensation for fees due to their errors, which I accept, and they still insist on charging fees while the system is going through debugging which I don't.  At least give us an explanation of why this problem is so hard to debug and what is going on.

No explanation and the devs like xnova keep ignoring our messages. Instead, we get pompous announcements of new features.

thehun, apologies for your difficulties here. The problem here it seems is that you are making a trade and the people who the trade matches with are not logged in, so they cannot do the BTCpay, thus the order is never fully filled.

I have stated twice on this thread in the last few days that we're working on an automated BTC escrow feature that will address this issue. We designed it last night and I am actually working on that over the next few days. Until that happens, if possible (beyond what you have made already), don't frustrate yourself with orders on the Dex for BTC. The failure rate is too high right now, due to people not staying logged in with their counterwallet.

It should only take a couple of days to code this up, and then a few more days for testing. However, if it takes longer, we will probably just disable BTC-based trades in counterwallet temporarily to save people from the hassle you are going through.

Also, Adam is working on a protocol-level enhancement that will auto cancel someone's order who does not make their BTCpays. This should further help liquidity in BTC markets. More info on that is at: https://github.com/CounterpartyXCP/counterpartyd/issues/223 (he has a branch with the proposed changes at https://github.com/CounterpartyXCP/counterpartyd/tree/penalize and they're ready to go in after peer review and more testing).

ALSO, we are talking through an enhancement/alternative to the current BTC anti-trolling fee system for BTC-based orders that would use XCP as collateral instead. This would make it so that people wouldn't have to give away BTC in fees on these kinds of orders, if they held XCP. More info here: https://github.com/CounterpartyXCP/counterpartyd/issues/224

And FYI, due to user response, we recently just redid the trading interface (and people seem to like the new one much better). After the bug fixes we just released, coming up with a better solution for this BTC problem was next on our list, and we're doing that now. We have also added a "Quick Buy" interface that will work with vennding machines, which will be activated in Counterwallet in the next week or two. This is all part of the focus to ease these issues folks like you are getting with the order process where BTC is involved (if BTC is NOT involved, things work great, even now).

Ok, this was in August.  @xnova @phantomphreak Is there any update?

[Xypro]

The developers are very aware of the problems with BTCPay in the DEX (although it is interesting to hear them spelled out in detail).  That is the reason why at the top of the Counterwallet, there is the notice: "The easiest way to buy XCP is to use Quick Buy in Counterwallet. For traditional exchanges, click here."  Buying XCP with BTC should be done using Vennd (Quick Buy), and selling XCP for BTC should be done using a centralized exchange.  IIRC, they announced a while ago that they are working on a solution to the BTCPay issue.

Buying and selling assets for XCP, on the other hand, works pretty well.

Ok, I'm just saying they should not have the xcp/btc exchange open right now. I've seen people complaining about it all week and it simply does not work. It should just be closed for now until they sort out btcpay because it's opening the door to financial loss for new people. That post you quoted is from august and there's no way I could find that in this thread easily. There should be an announcement about the exchange posted somewhere accessible, to discourage BTC use currently. Devs being aware of the issue, and new counterwallet users being aware, are two different things of different importance.

[Equality 7-2521]

I had to register just to ask this. Can you guys please fix or address the decentralized exchange in Counterwallet? It's nigh unusable at the moment.

It is possible to tie a sellers coins up for 3+ hours and sometimes more, if a person buys an order and then logs out of Counterwallet, the BTCpay will simply remain in an unconfirmed state and hold the sellers coin/asset in escrow indefinitely, until it cancels. The only option for the seller is to cancel his order at a fee, or wait an indeterminate amount of time for the order to expire. This is completely unfair and opens the door to serious gaming, which is already happening.

At least one seller has been gaming the market and indefinitely tying up other sellers coins. He lists his own XCP at 15% higher than poloniex and bter, anyone who sells under him gets their orders "bought" by him, and held in escrow so they are off the order list entirely, leaving only his inflated coins to buy. Whoever does this has 2-3 BTC wallets and has been holding other sellers funds via this logout method for days now, while he trades his own BTC/XCP to himself to distort the market value and try to catch some noob willing to pay too much.

Please address this issue, or make a public announcement that the exchange should not be used until this can be amended, because all it does is cause pure frustration and ties my coins up in limbo for hours unless I pay to cancel my order. I still have 0.1 BTC floating aruond somewhere that hasn't been returned from a 4 day old order. Of all the orders I've put up, only 6% have actually gone through. 94% have expired. It's ridiculous and should not be open in its current state.

All this exchange will do is scare off new people if that's their first experience with counterwallet. I've already seen 5-6 new people complaining about the exchange and about this glitch since I started reading chat a lot, just over a week ago. If the userbase picks up and newcomers think they can do arbitrage or something and place orders once they see that they've "sold" their coins, there will be some pissed off folk. I really like counterparty don't get me wrong, the exchange is just busted as hell and being gamed by 1-2 jerks.

Please appreciate that this only occurs for BTC trading. There is no need to bash the entire DEx for that. There are ways to improve the BTC trading experience. These are being explored/developed. Try using XBTC instead, for example.

[Xypro]

Please appreciate that this only occurs for BTC trading. There is no need to bash the entire DEx for that. There are ways to improve the BTC trading experience. These are being explored/developed. Try using XBTC instead, for example.

Not trying to bash the entire DEx, but it's silly to assume that the majority of new people coming to counterwallet won't be operating in BTC, though. It's not unreasonable to give people fair warning about the fact that BTC on the exchange, does not function very well. It should be visible somewhere on the exchange or wallet itself, not buried in this thread..

[Matt Y]

Solid feedback. Thanks for taking the time to report the issue in detail.

[Xypro]

Solid feedback. Thanks for taking the time to report the issue in detail.

No problem, I'm just trying to think about how newcomers will approach counterparty/counterwallet, first impressions are important!