Are smear campains and character assasination OK on these forums?

[Nefario]

No one should be treated like this guy is being treated.
It should not be allowed.

Which is what I'm trying to say, but I'm only a mod, not admin.

I think it's clear that Bruce isn't going to be involved in the next big bitcoin conference, and allowing this to drag on is damaging to the bitcoin community. And he can be ignored if he does make any claims.

I just think this kind of activity is wrong and shouldn't be continued, and those pushing it (the_duke, makomk, wolftaur) should be temporarily banned or blocked from posting.

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[Nefario]

It depends if the guy's an adult. If he's an adult he can consent. If he's desperate for the money then that's not actually consent... Just because someone wants money for it doesn't mean they don't like bondage. Doesn't mean they DO like bondage.

We're talking about mainstream prostitution establishments here, and if I understand Bruce's post and the information out there on how they work correctly there's no way to even ask that question until after you've already paid the bar's share of the money. That together with the age and power difference is coercive in itself. In fact, the thread that Bruce's post was in was about someone paying for a guy who claimed his previous client had coerced him into receiving anal sex for the first time and only paid him the equivalent of $17 for it.

Case in point above by makomk, and here is an example of wolftaur going after Matthew N. Wright for (loud) thought crimes.

Matthew N. Wright, the head of this supposed organization, has stated the following in a public post on this forum:

As for thinking girls who prance around as sluts getting raped deserve it, deserve is a strong word, but pretty much all guys think that don't they?

Like being a white dude strolling through the bronx, being a jew hanging out in front of hitler's house, or selling dvds out of the back of your car in a police station parking lot-- it's common sense.

Why girls are 'surprised' it happens is what makes me stop wanting to care.

The full and unedited original post can be seen at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=39476.msg489778#msg489778.

I would strongly, strongly suggest any business or entity considering business with this person's organization reconsider any relationship with this person or any organization he controls. I, for one, won't even consider patronizing or recommending any business that wants to associate with someone who thinks rape victims deserved to be raped.

[The_Duke]

I just think this kind of activity is wrong and shouldn't be continued, and those pushing it (the_duke, makomk, wolftaur) should be temporarily banned or blocked from posting.

No where have I accused Bruce of doing anything illegal. All I have done is point out how Bruce is making bad choices for bitcoin, is being stubborn about it, and is not doing anything to set it right.

You asked for suggestions, I gave them. How about you follow your own preachings, drop the whichhunt stuff and comment on my suggestions? Because so far, you are just providing another dramathread.

[Nefario]

I just think this kind of activity is wrong and shouldn't be continued, and those pushing it (the_duke, makomk, wolftaur) should be temporarily banned or blocked from posting.

No where have I accused Bruce of doing anything illegal. All I have done is point out how Bruce is making bad choices for bitcoin, is being stubborn about it, and is not doing anything to set it right.

You asked for suggestions, I gave them. How about you follow your own preachings, drop the whichhunt stuff and comment on my suggestions? Because so far, you are just providing another dramathread.

I did make a suggestion, temporarilly ban the members who are egging this on. Even named two.

[Tasty Champa]

No one should be treated like this guy is being treated.
It should not be allowed.

Which is what I'm trying to say, but I'm only a mod, not admin.

I think it's clear that Bruce isn't going to be involved in the next big bitcoin conference, and allowing this to drag on is damaging to the bitcoin community. And he can be ignored if he does make any claims.

I just think this kind of activity is wrong and shouldn't be continued, and those pushing it (the_duke, makomk, wolftaur) should be temporarily banned or blocked from posting.

I got banned 7 days for much less.
(I'm not really sure what I got banned for, I'm pretty sure I hit multiple fronts in one way or another and admittedly on purpose.)

I personally cringe when people of some note publicly start talking about their alt sexual prefs, but no one should be allowed to treat another human being in the manner Bruce is being treated. It's bad for business and everyone involved.

It shouldn't be tolerated.

[wolftaur]

Can we give up the ghost on this?

I didn't start this thread for people to continue on the whole Wagner thing.

Duke,wolftaur can you give it a rest.

Some suggestions on what we do from here, I don't think it's healthy for the forum to continue in this direction.

And despite some of Bruces posts I still don't think that means the guy should be hounded out.

I wasn't trying to continue it -- I was trying to say I disapprove of the whole slander someone's character thing. That which cannot be proven should not be used to taint a reputation. I was trying to give an example of a recent event I found offensive, but that was just meant to define the behavior I don't think is acceptable, not to turn this thread into the next duplicate.

[makomk]

Case in point above by makomk, and here is an example of wolftaur going after Matthew N. Wright for (loud) thought crimes.

Matthew N. Wright, the head of this supposed organization, has stated the following in a public post on this forum:

As for thinking girls who prance around as sluts getting raped deserve it, deserve is a strong word, but pretty much all guys think that don't they?

Like being a white dude strolling through the bronx, being a jew hanging out in front of hitler's house, or selling dvds out of the back of your car in a police station parking lot-- it's common sense.

Why girls are 'surprised' it happens is what makes me stop wanting to care.

Thought crimes? That's practically a bright flashing neon warning sign above Matthew's head reading "I think society would let me get away with rape, and I'd do the same for someone else"... and yes, people have gotten away with rape using exactly this excuse. (It's also pretty much what I'd expect within a geek community at this point, but that's beside the point.)

I personally cringe when people of some note publicly start talking about their alt sexual prefs, but no one should be allowed to treat another human being in the manner Bruce is being treated. It's bad for business and everyone involved.

As far as I can tell no-one's really brought up Bruce's alternative sexual preferences on this forum (yes he does appear to have them, and no I'm not telling you what they are - they're irrelevant). The issues were initially that he was holding a Bitcoin conference in an area of Thailand he knew was famous for its sex industry despite his denials because he'd made use of it himself, and then the question of just how old the "boys" he'd paid for sex with were...

[rainingbitcoins]

Case in point above by makomk, and here is an example of wolftaur going after Matthew N. Wright for (loud) thought crimes.

There's a huge difference between 1984-style thought crimes and just plain horribly offensive opinions.

[Tasty Champa]

No one should be treated like this guy is being treated.
It should not be allowed.

Which is what I'm trying to say, but I'm only a mod, not admin.

I think it's clear that Bruce isn't going to be involved in the next big bitcoin conference, and allowing this to drag on is damaging to the bitcoin community. And he can be ignored if he does make any claims.

I just think this kind of activity is wrong and shouldn't be continued, and those pushing it (the_duke, makomk, wolftaur) should be temporarily banned or blocked from posting.

I got banned 7 days for much less.
(I'm not really sure what I got banned for, I'm pretty sure I hit multiple fronts in one way or another and admittedly on purpose.)

I personally cringe when people of some note publicly start talking about their alt sexual prefs, but no one should be allowed to treat another human being in the manner Bruce is being treated. It's bad for business and everyone involved.

It shouldn't be tolerated.

Hear, hear. I'm not a Bitcoin show fan- it's boring to me. I'm not a Bruce fan, although I am very comfortable and entertained talking to him the other night on the phone while he was in Japan-- no warning signs of any kind. What he does in private (or even in the past) should stay there I think unless it's something that is detrimental to the world.

What if someone on this forum owed money on child support and also wanted to start their own exchange in India? Does that mean they shouldn't be listened to, no one should visit their exchange, etc? It's really vaguely starting to make sense when I remember all the arguments as to why libertarianism "wouldn't work in the 'real world'*"-- people are asshats and ruin it for themselves and everyone else.

*(I have no personal opinion about libertarianism at this point and time. Still learning.)

O.o are you agreeing with me or what are you doing exactly? XD
I don't dislike Bruce at all, though I don't think it was beneficial to him mentioning his sexual preference in the mybitcoin apology episode. As an observer I am led to assert that was the root of all of this, and the Thailand thing a negligible direction.

He could learn something from you, you should advise him on how to work with people.

[Nefario]

What if someone on this forum owed money on child support and also wanted to start their own exchange in India? Does that mean they shouldn't be listened to, no one should visit their exchange, etc? It's really vaguely starting to make sense when I remember all the arguments as to why libertarianism "wouldn't work in the 'real world'*"-- people are asshats and ruin it for themselves and everyone else.

*(I have no personal opinion about libertarianism at this point and time. Still learning.)

So true, world would be a better place if it wasn't for people.

I'll give you a good example. Here in China everyone has a ... file, a record of their life kept by the government.

All sorts of information goes into it, teachers write in it, only police, government officials, communist party members and employers can read it.

It means that any mistake in your youth (8-18) will get you a black mark, and no matter what kind of person you are or have become that black mark will follow you around for the rest of your life. It means no forgiveness, no forgetting, no new start.

It's a great way to keep people in line.

rainingbitcoins, sure voicing a crappy opinion isn't a great idea, but it's not a crime and people shouldn't be hounded about it.

makomk, continuing to prove my point, I've asked for you to be banned temporarilly.

[hugolp]

O.o are you agreeing with me or what are you doing exactly? XD
I don't dislike Bruce at all, though I don't think it was beneficial to him mentioning his sexual preference in the mybitcoin apology episode. As an observer I am led to assert that was the root of all of this, and the Thailand thing a negligible direction.

I too believe thats the problem. All the attacks started when Bruce said publicy that he was gay.

[wolftaur]

I too believe thats the problem. All the attacks started when Bruce said publicy that he was gay.

I honestly would have thought that would merit a ban.

Not just sexual orientation. But any obvious attempt to insult someone for their race, religion, sexual orientation, the country they reside in... That should be taken extremely seriously. I can't think of any place it has in a civilized conversation.

And granted, being gay myself and having been subjected to more than a few attacks on that basis in my lifetime, I'm probably a little bit biased on my thinking for such a policy, but...

[makomk]

It means that any mistake in your youth (8-18) will get you a black mark, and no matter what kind of person you are or have become that black mark will follow you around for the rest of your life. It means no forgiveness, no forgetting, no new start.

It's a great way to keep people in line.

On the other hand, there's fair evidence that Bruce and Matthew are still doing the things that they're being hounded for.

rainingbitcoins, sure voicing a crappy opinion isn't a great idea, but it's not a crime and people shouldn't be hounded about it.

It's not just a crappy argument, it's a crappy argument that leads to men getting away with raping women. Personally I think that's horribly wrong and this needs to be pointed out, repeatedly, until people stop accepting it as reasonable.

makomk, continuing to prove my point, I've asked for you to be banned temporarilly.

Why am I not surprised? Oh wait, it's because my expectations are already low.

I too believe thats the problem. All the attacks started when Bruce said publicy that he was gay.

Meh. Most of the dirt was dug up by SA forum members, and they knew or at least strongly suspected he was gay well before then. The reason you didn't hear about it was that no-one really gave a fuck. (You'll note I also actually defended Bruce in a thread that used insinuations based on the fact he was gay to try and discredit him, prior to this new information coming out.)

[rainingbitcoins]

rainingbitcoins, sure voicing a crappy opinion isn't a great idea, but it's not a crime and people shouldn't be hounded about it.

And nobody charged him with a crime. I know I sure wouldn't do business with someone who thinks that women who dress a certain way deserve to be raped (or even share some of the blame) and assumes every other man on earth agrees with him. Don't I have a right to that knowledge? Doesn't everyone? It's not like someone even had to go digging for that info - he posted it publically right here on this forum. And this is one of the more "public" faces of Bitcoin (or at least he's trying to be), so you always have the issue of those horrible opinions possibly being associated with Bitcoin in the public consciousness.

[The_Duke]

No where have I accused Bruce of doing anything illegal. All I have done is point out how Bruce is making bad choices for bitcoin, is being stubborn about it, and is not doing anything to set it right.

You asked for suggestions, I gave them. How about you follow your own preachings, drop the whichhunt stuff and comment on my suggestions? Because so far, you are just providing another dramathread.

I did make a suggestion, temporarilly ban the members who are egging this on. Even named two.

If you think that banning a few people who are merely pointing to stuff somewhere else on the internet and explaining why that stuff is bad for bitcoin (<-- thats what I did) is a good sollution to anything, then I fear I have to disagree with you. Others will just keep rising up to do the same pointing.

Again: You asked for suggestions, I gave you three suggestions. How about you, rather than doing yourself what you say is bad (pointing fingers) discuss the suggestions I gave you?

[Chris Acheson]

O.o are you agreeing with me or what are you doing exactly? XD
I don't dislike Bruce at all, though I don't think it was beneficial to him mentioning his sexual preference in the mybitcoin apology episode. As an observer I am led to assert that was the root of all of this, and the Thailand thing a negligible direction.

I too believe thats the problem. All the attacks started when Bruce said publicy that he was gay.

That doesn't sound right.  Are you talking about people attacking Bruce for being gay?  I've only seen one instance of that, a few days ago.  The general response was "Bruce is gay, so what?  NanaimoGold is just a bigot who's trying to distract people from his association with MyBitcoin".

If you mean people attacking Bruce in general, that's nothing new.  Lots of people have said that he comes off as a con artist and isn't a good spokesperson for Bitcoin, well before the MyBitcoin thing went down.

[Tasty Champa]

O.o are you agreeing with me or what are you doing exactly? XD
I don't dislike Bruce at all, though I don't think it was beneficial to him mentioning his sexual preference in the mybitcoin apology episode. As an observer I am led to assert that was the root of all of this, and the Thailand thing a negligible direction.

I too believe thats the problem. All the attacks started when Bruce said publicy that he was gay.

I'm going to pm you real quick.
I don't need a reply, it's just a simple statement.

[theymos]

Since everyone is going off-topic, clearly this is an issue that people want to discuss. I see absolutely no reason to prevent discussion of it. In the future, moderators must not remove topics related to this unless they are spammed or created by habitual trolls.

Why am I not surprised? Oh wait, it's because my expectations are already low.

You will not be banned.

[The_Duke]

Good move. Much better to keep it open and discussable, than trying to hide, cover and smother things.

Maybe we can create ONE topic on this matter so it is easier to follow, moderate and less impacting the rest of the topics?
Or maybe two topics, one on the Bruce issue and one on the topic of "Smear campaigns" etc?

[Littleshop]

This is a witch hunt.

you guys will just burn yourselves and your own houses in the process.

while whomever is behind it is getting lulz.

+1

Lots of innuendo and outright slander.  The posts on this board by members have already done more damage then Bruce is being accused of.