Discussion needed: xtraelv and Lafu activities

[mdayonliner]

I have a merit abuser investigation topic. I do it voluntary, to support the forum value and to be dutiful to the forum. So far, I have 18 cases with 82 (I might be wrong for few, after all I am a human) abusers in the list including xtraelv and Lafu. I tag this merit abusers with a red trust, when I see 100% evidence of their merit abusing in my investigation. I also always keep a reference in my red trust.

I completely understand that my red trust means nothing since I am not a DT member however the goal is, to knock the merit abuser and aware them that they are abusing merit system. Once they admit and acknowledge then I remove the red trust with a neutral trust to keep a log for the future with a hope that the user has been warned. Here, I have one of the case...

Merit history snapshot for xtraelv and Lafu

Click here if unable to see image

10	https://prnt.sc/jjwniy	<=== Providing customer service for Cryptopia
2	https://prnt.sc/jjwnyx	<=== Providing another customer service for Cryptopia
7	https://prnt.sc/jjwo8a	<=== (?) Seriously?!!
---	---------------------------	-------------------------
19	Total sent for Personal Interest	1 By xtraelv

2	https://prnt.sc/jk6wjr	<=== Providing customer service for Cryptopia
2	https://prnt.sc/jk6wt3	<=== (?)
20	https://prnt.sc/jk6x8k	Let's leave it out of equation, not enough evidence
2	https://prnt.sc/jk6xo1	<=== Providing customer service for Cryptopia
2	https://prnt.sc/jk6xyf	<=== Providing customer service for Cryptopia
2	https://prnt.sc/jk6yds	<=== Providing customer service for Cryptopia
3	https://prnt.sc/jk6yil	<=== Providing customer service for Cryptopia
---	---------------------------	-------------------------
13	Total sent for Personal Interest	1 By Lafu, in other words xtraelv received

Is this how we should spend our sMerits? For personal interest¹?

I would like to discuss, if my justification was wrong or right?
(Both xtraelv and Lafu are abusing merit)

I'm hoping that this system will increase post quality by:
 - Forcing people to post high-quality stuff in order to rank up. If you just post garbage, you will never get even 1 merit point, and you will therefore never be able to put links in your signature, etc.
 - Highlighting good posts with the "Merited by" line.

While we will not be directly moderating this, I encourage people to give merit to posts that are objectively high-quality, not just posts that you agree with.

Do not beg for merit excessively.

 

Can I ask for merit?

There is no need to do this and this behaviour is usually seen as 'merit begging' which is frowned upon by the community and may lead to you receiving negative feedback. Keep making quality, constructive posts and you will surely be rewarded over time.

Can I sell merit?

Selling merit is disallowed.

Can I give merit to my alt accounts?

No, this is frowned upon and will almost certainly lead to you receiving negative feedback if discovered.

¹_{Can be ALT, can be favour (exchange), can be trading with money}
References:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3168616.msg36795713#msg36795713	<==== Original investigation
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3168616.msg37797512#msg37797512	<==== Explaining his views are wrong
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4019640.0	<==== Scam Accusations Topic

[1713555756]

1713555756

[Tyrantt]

I'll be honest when I say that I'm not sure. This can very well be a situation of someone finding useful information. I don't see any pattern in merit trading (if there is any) and it's not that xtraelv's posts are complete nonsense. Also, since they're both in customer support, I do not think that post like these should deserve merit in any way, since they're just doing their job and should be receiving "merit" from their employers.

Now the same thing goes for [ANN] threads.

So my opinion is:  They probably aren't doing merit trading on purpose or that those two alts are connected. But I do think that they're using merit as it is not intended to be used. Tho, I just as well may be wrong,

[xtraelv]

Do not be fooled by this blackmailing spam clown.

Full explaination and blackmail scam accusation against mdayonliner has been made here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4019640.0

[xtraelv]

I'll be honest when I say that I'm not sure. This can very well be a situation of someone finding useful information. I don't see any pattern in merit trading (if there is any) and it's not that xtraelv's posts are complete nonsense. Also, since they're both in customer support, I do not think that post like these should deserve merit in any way, since they're just doing their job and should be receiving "merit" from their employers.

Now the same thing goes for [ANN] threads.

So my opinion is:  They probably aren't doing merit trading on purpose or that those two alts are connected. But I do think that they're using merit as it is not intended to be used. Tho, I just as well may be wrong,

I didn't even know what "smerit " was or that I had it until March. Lafu helps out a lot of people on the forum for no reward in his own time. It said that smerits could expire in the future so I gave it to him. I didn't even know that he had given me merit until recently when I found out that merit existed. I don't even see what the big deal is. I couldn't care less about merit I receive.

The merit message said they could expire so I gave them to the person I found most deserving.

I didn't look into it - and having looked at the rules now - wouldn't change my decision.

The merits were given in full accordance to the rules: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2766177.0



Neither Lafu nor myself are "customer support" .We are both UNPAID volunteer moderators on Cryptopia - I have never met Lafu but I chat with him occasionally. We live 18000km apart on different sides of the planet.

Lafu helps users with problems on bitcointalk while I generally am involved in busting scams on here. As moderators we have some special priviliges, abilities and contacts to help people that have issues with the exchange. Neither of us have to be on here because generally Cryptopia ignores this "bitcointalk" forum because it is largely unmoderated and often has abusive people on it. So their staff doesn't generally post on here.

[Lauda]

The merit message said they could expire so I gave them to the person I found most deserving.
-snip-

Nobody in their right mind who looks into the relevant posts is going to believe this.

[xtraelv]

The merit message said they could expire so I gave them to the person I found most deserving.
-snip-

Nobody in their right mind who looks into the relevant posts is going to believe this.

They weren't for just particular posts. The merits are not something that I find particularly relevant. I had them - it warned not to keep them. So I gave them to the person I found deserving of them. For the general contribution to helping out people on here.

One post was for announcement that addressed the most critical issue affecting users at the time.
One post was for an announcement that users had been looking forward the most. (endless "when is the doge market re-opening" questions)
One post is just a general post I merited because I had points and didn't want them to expire .



I've looked at "sMerit" three times since March. I gave them out when I saw that I had them.

Look at Lafu's total merit points  - why would he care one bit whether he got 19 points from me or not ?



This nonsense is a storm in a teacup. I didn't even know Cryptodevil had given me merit until yesterday. I couldn't care less about receiving merits.

[suchmoon]

I would like to discuss, if my justification was wrong or right?

Wrong.

You should not rely on merit alone to make the conclusions you're making. If you have other proof that they're alts then you have a case. Sending or receiving merit is not proof of anything.

Having said that, it's up to you how you want to use your neg feedback.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

I'll be honest when I say that I'm not sure.

I'm not sure either, but I'd put it at 90% sure that xtraelv and Lafu have some sort of arrangement for those merits that were exchanged.  Either they're friends, they're alts, or there was some goods, services, or money exchanged.  I don't know, but the pattern of their merit-giving is suspect and not normal.

On the other hand--and I've said this before--you might look at my merit history and think that I'm buying merits from pugman, TMAN, and Foxpup, since they've left some for me multiple times.  That's not the case, however.  We frequent many of the same threads and apparently they just like my posts.  And I've left merits for them and others numerous times, which could look suspicious.  And while I can scream it from the hills that there's nothing nefarious going on, there's no proof that there's not.

This is why I'm not tagging suspected merit abusers.  There's just way too much subjectivity involved and it makes my conscience itch.  However, in THIS case, where not many other people have merited OP....that's strange.  It definitely stands out when the majority of merits come from one member and not many from anyone else.

Really? You sure it is me? I haven't sent you even a merit! Lol. That's a surprise for me too because you're one of the best posters on bitcointalk! 

Whoops!  I didn't look before posting this, and my coffee obviously hasn't kicked in yet.  I take that back then.  I don't know why I thought that--maybe I got you confused with someone else.  Maybe I'm just confused in general. 

[pugman]

On the other hand--and I've said this before--you might look at my merit history and think that I'm buying merits from pugman, TMAN, and Foxpup, since they've left some for me multiple times.  That's not the case, however.  We frequent many of the same threads and apparently they just like my posts.  And I've left merits for them and others numerous times, which could look suspicious.  And while I can scream it from the hills that there's nothing nefarious going on, there's no proof that there's not.

Really? You sure it is me? I haven't sent you even a merit! Lol. That's a surprise for me too because you're one of the best posters on bitcointalk!  
But not anymore! It would be a shame for me if I am applying for a merit source and not meriting you. So let's begin with that. We are alts now. 

[xtraelv]

I'll be honest when I say that I'm not sure.

I'm not sure either, but I'd put it at 90% sure that xtraelv and Lafu have some sort of arrangement for those merits that were exchanged. .

Well - you're wrong. I've never spoken to Lafu about merits until yesterday when I became aware of these claims. Like I said before: I couldn't care less about receiving merits.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Well - you're wrong. I've never spoken to Lafu about merits until yesterday when I became aware of these claims. Like I said before: I couldn't care less about receiving merits.

OK, and I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt in this case--not that I would tag you anyway.  Just understand that there's so much abuse going on with the merit system that a merit history like yours sticks out like a sore thumb.  Mdayonliner is looking out for such things, as are other members and you got onto their radar apparently.  

As I said, the amount of uncertainty in tagging people I think are abusing merits keeps me from tagging them, as well as Theymos's statement that he doesn't think they should be tagged.  I understand very well that "friends" tend to merit each other and there may not be any bad intention behind this.  I've given lots of merit out to members I respect, and while they're not exactly "friends", it's the same principle.

Edit:

Something like "murder from neglect" (I believe I've picked the right case).

Or like depraved indifference.  I've always had a fondness for that legal term for some reason.

[eddie13]

I'm not sure either, but I'd put it at 90% sure that xtraelv and Lafu have some sort of arrangement for those merits that were exchanged.  Either they're friends, they're alts, or there was some goods, services, or money exchanged.  I don't know, but the pattern of their merit-giving is suspect and not normal.

Neither Lafu nor myself are "customer support" .We are both UNPAID volunteer moderators on Cryptopia -

So yeah, they are friends, have common interests, do the same things, post in the same threads..
I think you could consider them both members of "team cryptopia" or something like that..

I can see why he thinks that lafu's posts are very worthy of merit from his perspective, and it's very possible that he didn't know this would draw great suspicion upon him..

Lafu helps users with problems on bitcointalk while I generally am involved in busting scams on here. As moderators we have some special priviliges, abilities and contacts to help people that have issues with the exchange. Neither of us have to be on here because generally Cryptopia ignores this "bitcointalk" forum because it is largely unmoderated and often has abusive people on it. So their staff doesn't generally post on here.

I'm pretty sure what happened is cryptopia staff came here not knowing btct very well, and they attempted to promote cryptopia like many other companies do..

They didn't know the etiquette of btct so they unknowingly broke some rules for multiple threads and such..
Common btct noob mistakes but the admins of topia are hotheads with huge egos so instead of learning a battle ensued resulting in topia admins pretty much writing off btct and blocking btct links from their chats and stuff..  


Cryptopia has been hammered a lot on btct to the point to where you would almost feel bad for them but they bring it on themselves..

This thread is pretty much a continuation of cryptopia not knowing WTF they are doing and getting themselves into trouble.. Probably..

I mean, Ill give xtraelv the benefiet of the doubt that he didn't know that he would cause trouble for himself with his meriting activity, and I'm sure all of this crap that just got stirred up over his use of merit is a pretty good big warning to him and hopefully he will brush up on btct culture/etiquette and act accordingly..

Cryptopia has really been beaten up a lot here on btct for not knowing what they are doing so I say you don't wreck this guys account yet, make sure he is well aware (I think he is) of the problem, and lets hope he can end the cycle of cryptopia/btct - Hatfield/McCoy rivalry..

[Tyrantt]

OK, and I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt in this case--not that I would tag you anyway.  Just understand that there's so much abuse going on with the merit system that a merit history like yours sticks out like a sore thumb.  Mdayonliner is looking out for such things, as are other members and you got onto their radar apparently.  

so much that we're getting really close to "shoot first, ask questions later" situation.

Right now, I do think that they've intentionally traded smaller amount of merit between one another but I don't think it was with serious intents of trading merit against the rules. Something like "murder from neglect" (I believe I've picked the right term).

[mdayonliner]

Thank you everyone, for the feedbacks you have left so far on this topic. I will wait for some more feedbacks from different members until I make a summary of this topic. Right now I am working on a tutorial for the Beginners & Help section to add on the topic Self development and BitcoinTalk [Must read for new members]. I already added some views in the other topic which created against me on the Scam Accusations board. I quote it below...

Thanks for stepping in Lauda, The Pharmacist, suchmoon and others in advance.

I would suggest that mdayonliner probably shouldn't be putting those kinds of terms on feedback removal--if you tag someone for merit abuse, scamming, or whatever, you should do it for the good of the community and my opinion is that unless you made an error, the feedback should stick.  Even if it's untrusted.

If my memory serves me right then I believe I had a soft explanation before however I will try again...

=>I do not feel happy by red tagging members.
=>My red tag is a warning for them to aware that they are doing things (if any) wrong (it could be merit or anything else).

It is obvious that they will see the red tag and will write me back or react harsh like this topic (Most of the time I really get harsh reply with threatening messages like "i will give you a negative trust too" but it's ok with me. I left my teenage time long ago).

=>When they come and explain me or they admit they made mistake/s then I remove the red tag with a neutral tag. The neutral tag is a log only for their first warning.

After that if I spot the same behaviour then I can bring all these evidence/s of first warning and request any DT member to take a look on the case. If DT find them guilty then it's up to them if they want to red tag the abuser or not. But my feeling is that DT member WILL red tag them if they do the same mistake 2nd time. And this way the forum will be free from abusers, a better place for users who respect the forum rules, cares about the forum and the community.

Question could be... why don't I give neutral trust at the first place? Because, a neutral trust will not make them serious enough to admit or even to explain me but a red tag will do.  

I think the "terms" of feedback removal are too convoluted and sometimes mdayonliner can seem like a bit of a drama queen but I don't see malicious intent here.

@suchmoon, I hope now you will have a better idea of my redtag removal topic. Based on your feedback here I will re-structure the topic so that it looks good and not a drama queen stuffs  

Stop using these two words every time someone gives you a timeline to correct something. Neither word is applicable here. Overly-sensitive humans.

@Lauda, thanks for spotting it. That exactly explains my explanation to The Pharmacist above.

In general for the record, I have no interest whatsoever to blackmail anyone for anything especially for un-trusted feedbacks - I am not such stupid.

Something like "murder from neglect" (I believe I've picked the right term).

@Tyrantt, I love it (the statement)  

[xtraelv]

so much that we're getting really close to "shoot first, ask questions later" situation.

Right now, I do think that they've intentionally traded smaller amount of merit between one another but I don't think it was with serious intents of trading merit against the rules. Something like "murder from neglect" (I believe I've picked the right term).

Murder by neglect ? We are talking about something slightly less trivial as "liking" someone on facebook. If the merit system wasn't supposed to be used then it shouldn't have been introduced. If it was anymore complex than giving credit to someone that you believed deserves it - it should have been outlined better in the instructions.

I find this whole trial by lynchmob quite abhorrent.

[xtraelv]

I'm pretty sure what happened is cryptopia staff came here not knowing btct very well, and they attempted to promote cryptopia like many other companies do..

They didn't know the etiquette of btct so they unknowingly broke some rules for multiple threads and such..
Common btct noob mistakes but the admins of topia are hotheads with huge egos so instead of learning a battle ensued resulting in topia admins pretty much writing off btct and blocking btct links from their chats and stuff..  

You might have noticed that I don't have any Cryptopia signature or adverts on my profile. I have strong links with a number of exchanges.
I'm not reponsible for their issues, have no control over their issues but have tried to help users get resolutions. How bad is that ?

As a crypto investor you get associations with many coins, exchanges and people.

Cryptopia has changed from being run by 2-3 people last year to now being run by a new CEO and about 116 staff. Only one founder still works there part time.

The main reason I come on bitcointalk is to expose scams and to assist users that post in the Cryptopia thread because bitcointalk is largely ignored by their staff.


I don't even particularly like bitcointalk because the new users get treated quite poorly.

Cryptopia has been hammered a lot on btct to the point to where you would almost feel bad for them but they bring it on themselves..

This thread is pretty much a continuation of cryptopia not knowing WTF they are doing and getting themselves into trouble.. Probably..

I mean, Ill give xtraelv the benefiet of the doubt that he didn't know that he would cause trouble for himself with his meriting activity, and I'm sure all of this crap that just got stirred up over his use of merit is a pretty good big warning to him and hopefully he will brush up on btct culture/etiquette and act accordingly..

Cryptopia has really been beaten up a lot here on btct for not knowing what they are doing so I say you don't wreck this guys account yet, make sure he is well aware (I think he is) of the problem, and lets hope he can end the cycle of cryptopia/btct - Hatfield/McCoy rivalry..

Cryptopia was beaten up because their systems couldn't cope with the volume and support requests were astronomical. It is only logical and understandable that users became upset.

As a mod I tried to do what I could during that time. The rest of the time I largely ignore that thread. Usually Lafu is on there on his own trying to do his best with limited English.  Every exchange gets hammered on here. Exchange users don't read, don't research and have opinions about things they know little about. They hit the nuclear button when their funds are stuck and disappear once it is resolved. They gravitate to here to voice their opinions on here because abusive behaviour is largely unmoderated.  I prefer spending months unravelling complex scams where people have actually lost funds and preventing others from losing their funds.

I'm also not convinced that this is without malice. I can't imagine someone analysing someones "merits" for no reason when they don't have time to message those users. I suspect ulterior motive.

[suchmoon]

Cryptopia was beaten up because their systems couldn't cope with the volume and support requests were astronomical. It is only logical and understandable that users became upset.

As a mod I tried to do what I could during that time. The rest of the time I largely ignore that thread. Usually Lafu is on there on his own trying to do his best with limited English.  Every exchange gets hammered on here. Exchange users don't read, don't research and have opinions about things they know little about. They hit the nuclear button when their funds are stuck and disappear once it is resolved. They gravitate to here to voice their opinions on here because abusive behaviour is largely unmoderated.  I prefer spending months unravelling complex scams where people have actually lost funds and preventing others from losing their funds.

All those crappy exchanges with support issues made the choice to neglect their customers. They could have stopped new user registrations or deposits or otherwise slowed down their growth to allow themselves to catch up but they didn't. Cashing in on the bubble was too important. It's quite disingenuous of you to blame the customers when Cryptopia's policy has been - and still is as far as I can see - "send us the money but if you want it back be prepared to wait three months for your ticket to get resolved".

I would suggest that you walk away before you dig the hole too deep. That whole Cryptopia nonsense is just gonna earn you more red trust for shilling this shitty-borderline-scammy exchange. Trust is not moderated and mdayonliner is not in DT so there is nothing you can do.

[xtraelv]

All those crappy exchanges with support issues made the choice to neglect their customers. They could have stopped new user registrations or deposits or otherwise slowed down their growth to allow themselves to catch up but they didn't.

Stopping accounts doesn't help anything. They tried stopping registrations. It just causes KYC problems and serious legal issues.

The problem is mainly on bitcointalk and other forums. Also ebay.



https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2590167.0

[eddie13]

I'm pretty sure what happened is cryptopia staff came here not knowing btct very well, and they attempted to promote cryptopia like many other companies do..

They didn't know the etiquette of btct so they unknowingly broke some rules for multiple threads and such..
Common btct noob mistakes but the admins of topia are hotheads with huge egos so instead of learning a battle ensued resulting in topia admins pretty much writing off btct and blocking btct links from their chats and stuff..  

You might have noticed that I don't have any Cryptopia signature or adverts on my profile. I have strong links with a number of exchanges.

As a crypto investor you get associations with many coins, exchanges and people.

Cryptopia has changed from being run by 2-3 people last year to now being run by a new CEO and about 116 staff. Only one founder still works there part time.

The main reason I come on bitcointalk is to expose scams and to assist users that post in the Cryptopia thread because bitcointalk is largely ignored by their staff.

I don't even particularly like bitcointalk because the new users get treated quite poorly.

Cryptopia has been hammered a lot on btct to the point to where you would almost feel bad for them but they bring it on themselves..

This thread is pretty much a continuation of cryptopia not knowing WTF they are doing and getting themselves into trouble.. Probably..

I mean, Ill give xtraelv the benefiet of the doubt that he didn't know that he would cause trouble for himself with his meriting activity, and I'm sure all of this crap that just got stirred up over his use of merit is a pretty good big warning to him and hopefully he will brush up on btct culture/etiquette and act accordingly..

Cryptopia has really been beaten up a lot here on btct for not knowing what they are doing so I say you don't wreck this guys account yet, make sure he is well aware (I think he is) of the problem, and lets hope he can end the cycle of cryptopia/btct - Hatfield/McCoy rivalry..

Cryptopia was beaten up because their systems couldn't cope with the volume and support requests were astronomical. It is only logical and understandable that users became upset.

As a mod I tried to do what I could during that time. The rest of the time I largely ignore that thread. Usually Lafu is on there on his own trying to do his best with limited English.  Every exchange gets hammered on here. Exchange users don't read, don't research and have opinions about things they know little about. They hit the nuclear button when their funds are stuck and disappear once it is resolved. They gravitate to here to voice their opinions on here because abusive behaviour is largely unmoderated.  I prefer spending months unravelling complex scams where people have actually lost funds and preventing others from losing their funds.

I'm also not convinced that this is without malice. I can't imagine someone analysing someones "merits" for no reason when they don't have time to message those users. I suspect ulterior motive.

116 staff and an unpaid mod with english problems is the only one there most of the time? Besides you?
I don't know, I haven't been back there in a while since they banned me one too many times..

When I was talking about cryptopia previously having problems I meant the first few times anything was posted about "cryptopia" here.. Way back..

The reason new accounts seem to be treated poorly is that their are more alt spam accounts and bot accounts made here everyday than you can imagine, most are up to no good..
THIS IS WHY the merit system was put into place and why you got yourself called out on it..

At first glance it looks like you are sending merit to your alt account, like 95% of the cases that look like yours..
If we were all so terrible to noobs we would not have even considered your innocence.. A lot of good people here took their time to come to the conclusion..

You can think it's malice all you want, but being a "scambuster" you should know that the people you are responding to here bust 100 spammers/scammers (accounts) a day at times by analyzing merit and crypto transactions, and they deserve it..
If you look, their are threads specifically analyzing all the merit ever transacted on this forum with all kinds of stats, charts, and graphs so yeah people analyze merit a heck of a lot and the reason you were singled out is your suspicious merit activity..

You giving all of your merit to one account is a bullseye on your back that you are one of these spammers the forum is fighting, but look it seems people have come to the conclusion that you are innocent..

Actually, this method of bringing these cases to the public, like yours was, works pretty darn good to clear innocent peoples name.
I know I don't like seeing people get screwed when they don't deserve it, and I'm pretty sure a lot of others don't either by the way they come here on their own time to personally dig into these cases and find the truth..

mdayonliner might be a bit new and anxious to bust spammers, and they saw the target on your back that you made, and now you are one of the few that get let off the hook..  
"I didn't know" doesn't get many people off either..

I suggest you lose the hostility about your situation and bring yourself to a good understanding of the culture of btct, so you can get along swimmingly by avoiding mistakes like this and become a fine upstanding member..

[xtraelv]

You can think it's malice all you want, but being a "scambuster" you should know that the people you are responding to here bust 100 spammers/scammers (accounts) a day at times by analyzing merit and crypto transactions, and they deserve it..

I wasn't referring the malice to anyone other than the OP. Hey - I may be wrong but I find it hard to believe someone randomly clicks someones "merit".
Out of the 19 cases this is the only one being discussed in a seperate thread to draw attention to it. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3168616.0
In my entire time on Bitcointalk I had one message removed by a moderator. That was at the same time as this merit issue. The removed message didn't break the rules. It was politically motivated for calling out a scam. Co-incidence ? Maybe... or people are getting played.

I assist in removing between 1000 to 5000 spam/scam messages daily from a forum. I hate spammers & scammers with a vengance.