Whats your opinion on a fully 100% premined coin?

[UnNamedCoin]

PROS  :
After coin premine and distribution you would need nodes to perform transactions, but you could keep difficulty low and just have mining done by clients wallet on CPU. Client wallets on laptops could be active mining nodes forever. YAY!

CONS :
A pre mined coin is too easy to produce. Anyone could fork Bitcoin tonight and pre mine 21M coins. And so it is worth very little.

It's like saying, let's not bother with gold, all the environmental pollution the mining causes is terrible! Instead of gold lets just use something else, so instead of 1Oz of gold you can use 1Oz of gravel... I have 10 tons of gravel in my truck, let's all use that.

Even if you did succeed and get it off the ground then thed network difficulty would be so low that a bigger chain fork could be created with modest hardware.

Fair comment. I understand that premining is easy and it would be the distribution and the platforms it runs on that would make it viable.
As for your other comment... Unlike gravel, premined coins just cant be picked up off the ground... Limiting production would eventually make it valuable. I think the Apple II has only risen in value, not because it a powerful machine, but because its a rare commodity now and for all intents and purposes, could act as a currency.

It would be easier for me to aquire 21M premined MyCoins than it would be to aquire 21M pieces of gravel. So In a way gravel has more worth.

My point is that when the coins are first premined they are worth nothing globally. Of course they would be worth something in the optimistic eyes of the creator, and he would have to convince others of their worth.

You would need a lot of "clout" to get a premine to ignite, you would need massive media expenditure. I would think only a government or large corporate entity could be successful at igniting a premine.

If it did take off: the network hashpower to capital ratio would be too low to secure the coin against large fork attacks.

I think "Expensive" things are not easy to produce and/or mantain.

Thats very interesting.
But mining is getting ridiculously expensive and such a short term project unless large capital investments are made monthly. Im not sure what a KnC jupiter makes now, but I do know what it cost. And mining long term is really profitable for manufacturers and of course the power company, which brings crypto back to the Corporations power, which is what Bitcoin wanted to avoid... correct?

Then there is the exclusivity of day1 coin, which would flow from miner and then out to "similar interest groups", that would then shuffle that out again to other similar interest groups, before eventually hitting the mass population.

Premining if marketed properly could bypass techies completely and hit the mass market quicker than a Bitcoin does.
Setting up wallets, ATM,s etc to confirm transactions could also collect those transaction fees and pass them back as "interest" to the first x confirmers and that would mean that your interest is based on the time your device is left on. As difficulty would not be an issue anymore, I would suspect those transactions to then get processed a lot quicker

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[UnNamedCoin]

OP: Hey miners ... f*** you here is a 100% premined coin. Enjoy your minuscule transaction fees! You ain't getting any honey from my coin ma ha ha!
Miner: Tap tap tap
OP: What you doing?
Miner: Configuring my rig to point to a more profitable coin, say DOGE
OP: Cool whatever.
OP: Oh why can't I send this transaction been waiting 2 days now. Scratches head.
Tech Friend: Check the network hashrate. It is zero.
OP: What does that mean?
Tech Friend: No one is mining.
OP: Why do I care. I hate miners, I am a preminer. A 100% Preminer.
Tech Friend: Miners are required to confirm transactions. They are rewarded with coins for their blocks.
OP: Oh so I need miners.
Tech Friend: Yes
OP: So maybe I leave a few coins for them?
Tech Friend: Yes
OP: So 100% premine not so good?
Tech Friend: Got it.

Every wallet owner could be a miner (transactor), the original bitcoin client had a CPU miner in it, when the DIF was very low.

So in theory a 100% premine would not need miners, instead every wallet owner would hash transactions, it would run pretty sweetly, that is until someone did a nefarious large fork.

So yes, you need big rigs mining at high DIF. for a secure network. the network hashpower needs to be proportional to the coins total capital.

Any premine that becomes successful and has low difficulty will get robbed, guaranteed!

Can you explain the last comment? I thought the coin was secured by the crypto and not the hashpower behind it.

[r0ach]

Doesn't the original poster realize this propaganda he's pushing for a 100% premine coin has already been fulfilled?  It's called NXT and everyone hates it except the 30 people that own it.

[g4c]

Thats very interesting.
But mining is getting ridiculously expensive and such a short term project unless large capital investments are made monthly. Im not sure what a KnC jupiter makes now, but I do know what it cost. And mining long term is really profitable for manufacturers and of course the power company, which brings crypto back to the Corporations power, which is what Bitcoin wanted to avoid... correct?

Then there is the exclusivity of day1 coin, which would flow from miner and then out to "similar interest groups", that would then shuffle that out again to other similar interest groups, before eventually hitting the mass population.

Premining if marketed properly could bypass techies completely and hit the mass market quicker than a Bitcoin does.
Setting up wallets, ATM,s etc to confirm transactions could also collect those transaction fees and pass them back as "interest" to the first x confirmers and that would mean that your interest is based on the time your device is left on. As difficulty would not be an issue anymore, I would suspect those transactions to then get processed a lot quicker

Yes, mining is a free running market, a cold heartless beast like an arms race, those with the cheapest electricity will win.

But because of this Bitcoin has 470742.89 petaflops of computing power behind it, that makes for a VERY secure "lock" on the vault.

A premine, having less initial miner incentive, will find it difficult to become secure.

[g4c]

OP: Hey miners ... f*** you here is a 100% premined coin. Enjoy your minuscule transaction fees! You ain't getting any honey from my coin ma ha ha!
Miner: Tap tap tap
OP: What you doing?
Miner: Configuring my rig to point to a more profitable coin, say DOGE
OP: Cool whatever.
OP: Oh why can't I send this transaction been waiting 2 days now. Scratches head.
Tech Friend: Check the network hashrate. It is zero.
OP: What does that mean?
Tech Friend: No one is mining.
OP: Why do I care. I hate miners, I am a preminer. A 100% Preminer.
Tech Friend: Miners are required to confirm transactions. They are rewarded with coins for their blocks.
OP: Oh so I need miners.
Tech Friend: Yes
OP: So maybe I leave a few coins for them?
Tech Friend: Yes
OP: So 100% premine not so good?
Tech Friend: Got it.

Every wallet owner could be a miner (transactor), the original bitcoin client had a CPU miner in it, when the DIF was very low.

So in theory a 100% premine would not need miners, instead every wallet owner would hash transactions, it would run pretty sweetly, that is until someone did a nefarious large fork.

So yes, you need big rigs mining at high DIF. for a secure network. the network hashpower needs to be proportional to the coins total capital.

Any premine that becomes successful and has low difficulty will get robbed, guaranteed!

Can you explain the last comment? I thought the coin was secured by the crypto and not the hashpower behind it.

A running coin continues "mining" even after the last coin is mined.

In BTC: Transactions get pooled into blocks every ten minutes and then miners all compete to hash it with a salt such that the generated hash has a set number of zeroes at the start, the more zeroes the higher the difficulty, the more hashpower needed on the network.

hopefully by the time the last coin is mined then transaction volume is high enough that a secure network can be mantained.

Cryptocoins are a distributed P2P network using general consensus to keep things straight. Now in a low difficulty coin it is easy to make a fictitious block and fool the entire P2P network that you (or your group) have the truthful majority blockchain. In which case the whole thing is fucked, who has the truthful blockchain, no way to know?

[UnNamedCoin]

Thats very interesting.
But mining is getting ridiculously expensive and such a short term project unless large capital investments are made monthly. Im not sure what a KnC jupiter makes now, but I do know what it cost. And mining long term is really profitable for manufacturers and of course the power company, which brings crypto back to the Corporations power, which is what Bitcoin wanted to avoid... correct?

Then there is the exclusivity of day1 coin, which would flow from miner and then out to "similar interest groups", that would then shuffle that out again to other similar interest groups, before eventually hitting the mass population.

Premining if marketed properly could bypass techies completely and hit the mass market quicker than a Bitcoin does.
Setting up wallets, ATM,s etc to confirm transactions could also collect those transaction fees and pass them back as "interest" to the first x confirmers and that would mean that your interest is based on the time your device is left on. As difficulty would not be an issue anymore, I would suspect those transactions to then get processed a lot quicker

Yes, mining is a free running market, a cold heartless beast like an arms race, those with the cheapest electricity will win.

But because of this Bitcoin has 470742.89 petaflops of computing power behind it, that makes for a VERY secure "lock" on the vault.

A premine, having less initial miner incentive, will find it difficult to become secure.

Thanks for the enlightenment g4c

[b¡tco¡n]

OP: Hey miners ... f*** you here is a 100% premined coin. Enjoy your minuscule transaction fees! You ain't getting any honey from my coin ma ha ha!
Miner: Tap tap tap
OP: What you doing?
Miner: Configuring my rig to point to a more profitable coin, say DOGE
OP: Cool whatever.
OP: Oh why can't I send this transaction been waiting 2 days now. Scratches head.
Tech Friend: Check the network hashrate. It is zero.
OP: What does that mean?
Tech Friend: No one is mining.
OP: Why do I care. I hate miners, I am a preminer. A 100% Preminer.
Tech Friend: Miners are required to confirm transactions. They are rewarded with coins for their blocks.
OP: Oh so I need miners.
Tech Friend: Yes
OP: So maybe I leave a few coins for them?
Tech Friend: Yes
OP: So 100% premine not so good?
Tech Friend: Got it.

Every wallet owner could be a miner (transactor), the original bitcoin client had a CPU miner in it, when the DIF was very low.

So in theory a 100% premine would not need miners, instead every wallet owner would hash transactions, it would run pretty sweetly, that is until someone did a nefarious large fork.

So yes, you need big rigs mining at high DIF. for a secure network. the network hashpower needs to be proportional to the coins total capital.

Any premine that becomes successful and has low difficulty will get robbed, guaranteed!

It reckon it is hard enough to convince someone to run the full Bitcoin client over a lite wallet like Multibit, because they don't want to wait and use up their bandwidth.

You expect people to not only download the blockchain but have their PC get hot and grind to a halt mining this coin, for no reward.

And yes 51% attack non withstanding :-)

Why doesn't anyone get it! We don't need any of these alt-coins. Satoshi got it right. Every parameter. The only alt-coin thing I am willing to maybe except is proof of stake to save energy.

[g4c]

OP: Hey miners ... f*** you here is a 100% premined coin. Enjoy your minuscule transaction fees! You ain't getting any honey from my coin ma ha ha!
Miner: Tap tap tap
OP: What you doing?
Miner: Configuring my rig to point to a more profitable coin, say DOGE
OP: Cool whatever.
OP: Oh why can't I send this transaction been waiting 2 days now. Scratches head.
Tech Friend: Check the network hashrate. It is zero.
OP: What does that mean?
Tech Friend: No one is mining.
OP: Why do I care. I hate miners, I am a preminer. A 100% Preminer.
Tech Friend: Miners are required to confirm transactions. They are rewarded with coins for their blocks.
OP: Oh so I need miners.
Tech Friend: Yes
OP: So maybe I leave a few coins for them?
Tech Friend: Yes
OP: So 100% premine not so good?
Tech Friend: Got it.

Every wallet owner could be a miner (transactor), the original bitcoin client had a CPU miner in it, when the DIF was very low.

So in theory a 100% premine would not need miners, instead every wallet owner would hash transactions, it would run pretty sweetly, that is until someone did a nefarious large fork.

So yes, you need big rigs mining at high DIF. for a secure network. the network hashpower needs to be proportional to the coins total capital.

Any premine that becomes successful and has low difficulty will get robbed, guaranteed!

It reckon it is hard enough to convince someone to run the full Bitcoin client over a lite wallet like Multibit, because they don't want to wait and use up their bandwidth.

You expect people to not only download the blockchain but have their PC get hot and grind to a halt mining this coin, for no reward.

And yes 51% attack non withstanding :-)

Well, those that did maintain the blockchain and hash transactions would be rewarded with transaction fees. Free market would find the percentage who bothered to do this. I don't know the percentage that would need to run a full node, but it would probably get by with as little as 1% or so (maybe someone knows?)

but yes it's the crux of the problem, like chicken and egg logic:

[1]need to increase network size.
[2]need to attract full nodes.
[3]need to reward full nodes with transaction fees.
[4]got too few transactions... goto[1]

Incidentally, bitcoin will become a premined coin, when 21M coins are out. But by that time we hope transaction volume will be massive and the system will sustain.

We don't need to "get it" the free market decides, not us. But I am in agreement with you, premine will not be able to compete against mined during growth phase, thus it's pointless trying.

[UnNamedCoin]

I would hate to know what the DIF would be in 2140 or even 2020 for that matter.

So premine now is what Bitcoin will be in 100ish years from now... I never looked at it that way.. I just looked at it as "all out"

[g4c]

I would hate to know what the DIF would be in 2140 or even 2020 for that matter.

very high, all going well, all electric heaters might be some hashing array? perhaps a nanotech way to grow hashing circuits, even electric water kettles and heaters might have hashing elements?

So premine now is what Bitcoin will be in 100ish years from now... I never looked at it that way.. I just looked at it as "all out"

Yes, but BTC will (hopefully) have massive network.

[UnNamedCoin]

Ok.. great to know all this stuff...

So for arguments sake, lets assume premine and its being distributed at a controlled and equal amount with limits on quantity.

Would this stop or slow down the premined coins volatility when these misleading articles about countries banning coin are made?
When China made an announcement, it had am impact on the coins price, so someone in the USA was directly effected by what China does or does not do. And why China? Is it due to them having the bigger mining rigs, that meant that more coin was in circulation in China?

[g4c]

Ok.. great to know all this stuff...

So for arguments sake, lets assume premine and its being distributed at a controlled and equal amount with limits on quantity.

Would this stop or slow down the premined coins volatility when these misleading articles about countries banning coin are made?
When China made an announcement, it had am impact on the coins price, so someone in the USA was directly effected by what China does or does not do. And why China? Is it due to them having the bigger mining rigs, that meant that more coin was in circulation in China?

Consider a premine, somehow cleverly distributed evenly amongst all those with internet access. (which is "unfair" globally, but that's another issue).

The moment that premine hits their wallet then what's it worth?

It's initial price would be 100% speculation, their would be no existing utility to anchor it to the "real world".

One might create an exchange for fiat or other coin, to see where buyers meet sellers, the market would be purely speculative.

In a 100% speculative state, a coin is most vulnerable to misinformation, misinformation spooks the mind that speculates. So at the moment of complete premine broadcast it would be at its most vulnerable.

It makes more sense to have a coin evolve slowly, gaining utility at a rate proportional to network growth. The utility can be thought of as a floor underneath the volatile speculative price chart. I'm not sure on the utility/speculation ratio for BTC at the moment but it's significant.

Free market is very similar to genetic evolution, to think one can shortcut evolution is short sighted, the optimal solution can not be created. It must grow and find it's path naturally, otherwise it WILL be put on the wrong path. Bitcoin will still undergo alot of evolution before last mined coin, the idea of trusting Bitcoin is slowly growing in peoples minds.

I would go so far as saying: If one wanted to ensure the success of a premined coin, then ALOT of centralisation and HARD control of users would be needed, because as you allude to, you would be battling for the minds of the users against large entities. Perhaps the only organisations that could successfully launch and run premines would be governments or massive corporations.

[g4c]

Perhaps you meant: dribble the premine out fairly, each new user gets a free amount.

We will assume somehow you have a magic distributed and trust free mechanism to prevent any single person getting multiple freeloads. Like some country coins are issuing against proof of national ID, which needs all users to trust a single entity by the way.

But again you have the 100% speculative market for the coins first entrance. That coin freeloads into users wallet, what's it worth to them, well less than the last breath they took, they got it for zero, anything they can sell it for is a profit right.

I think premine will always be a recipe for a sad looking chart, unless you had the power and influence to mega pump the coin for a long time, you know... set up a new Hollywood etc. to keep the dream alive, like it's done for fiat money.

With mined POW coins the miners are the first owners/sellers, they set the sell price in order to get ROI for their gear. It's an anchor to the real world.

[john38474]

100% scam 

[dearbesz]

i like 100% premined coins...