[NXT] nxtpool.com - first forging NXT pool [161 KNXT] - closed

[superresistant]

Post the mining ratio (efficiency) of your pool so we can compare with solo mining.

[Dervish]

Post the mining ratio (efficiency) of your pool so we can compare with solo mining.

Still searching for first block

[D.Khaled]

Sent 44 NXT test. We'll see how this goes.

[Coinsy]

You're not doing much to facilitate trust here. You're coming off as though we should trust you before you give us reason not to. That's not a good approach to take. I've seen it taken with Visacoin. We should not trust you until you give us reason to. Be skeptical of this guy everyone.

[Dervish]

You're not doing much to facilitate trust here. You're coming off as though we should trust you before you give us reason not to. That's not a good approach to take. I've seen it taken with Visacoin. We should not trust you until you give us reason to. Be skeptical of this guy everyone.

Time works on me

[Dervish]

Today we generate two blocks!

[sniksen]

I am interested, but I can't allow myself to send away my coins

[User705]

Today we generate two blocks!

Were they empty of with fees?

[Dervish]

Today we generate two blocks!

Were they empty of with fees?

Each has 1 NXT fee.

[BitThink]

Welcome to first NXT pool. Our address is: http://nxtpool.com/

• Forging is performed by one wallet.
• When block is found, each participant receives a share of the fee equal to the ratio of NXT amounts of the participant and the pool, minus pool commission.
• During the promotional period the pool commission is 0%.
• At the end of the promotional period, the commission pool will be 1-2%.
• All users who have made deposits of 10.000 NXT or more during the promotional period will have reduced commission after the promotional period.
• Currently all contributions and withdrawals are processed manually.
• Commission for withdrawal is one NXT.
• Pool wallet is running on dedicated server, works 24/7 and is stable. Forging wallet is automatically restarted every 3 hours for stability.

In order to start using the pool you need to register on the website by specifying your NXT wallet and send NXT to the pool wallet: 17093633478753342904

Pooling gives an obvious advantage of more stable income. But besides that, after analyzing the forging code I found that the probability of generating a block depends on the number of coins not in a linear way (mathematical justification of this fact will be posted later). Therefore, participating in the pool also gives higher incentive for participant than he would get by forging alone.


--------------------------
Our funds: 161,595 NXT
Total blocks found: 2

Join a pool does not improve your forging income, but has a huge risk to lose all your Nxt. Why not just keep your own computer/VPS on? Therefore, apparently no one will join a pool like this. It's completely different from PoW pool mining where you don't need to risk anything other than the hashing power for one day or even just one hour.

[Dervish]

Join a pool does not improve your forging income, but has a huge risk to lose all your Nxt. Why not just keep your own computer/VPS on? Therefore, apparently no one will join a pool like this. It's completely different from PoW pool mining where you don't need to risk anything other than the hashing power for one day or even just one hour.

The algorithm of forging is constructed such way so:
p=P-1/4*P²
Where P - is probability to forge block with some amount and p - is probability to forge block with the same amount but split to 2 wallet.
For the small amount different is very small. But for big it's not so small.
For example if we have wallet with about 200 000 000 NXT it's change of forge about 20%. If we split amount for two wallets with 100 000 000 NXT on each our chance became 19%
p = 0,2 - 1/4*0,04 = 0,19
Converse statement is also true. If we union two wallets with individual chance 9,5% of forge we increase their total chance. It became 20%. We can continue.
First column number of wallets we store NXT. Second - total chance to forge block. Third chance of each wallet to forge block.

1	20,0000%	20,0000%
2	19,0000%	9,5000%
4	18,0975%	4,5244%
8	17,2787%	2,1598%
16	16,5323%	1,0333%
32	15,8490%	0,4953%
64	15,2210%	0,2378%
128	14,6418%	0,1144%
256	14,1059%	0,0551%
512	13,6084%	0,0266%
1024	13,1455%	0,0128%

So if we has 1000 persons with 200 000 NXT each, when they unite to the pool they increase their income by a half!
But here we look in to very big pool. If pool power will bee 50 000 000 NXT. It will increase income of member with 50 000 NXT about 12%

[Souldream]

Yes but for each transaction you will lost @minimal 1 NxT .... for transaction.

So for 1 Nxt sent , you use 1..... pool for NxT by grouping all account doesn't worth .... and too risky , if your wallet get hacked ... you will refund all users back ?

[Dervish]

Lets add some math:

We will consider the algorithm for generating units in the system NXT.
The algorithm is as follows :
For each  wallet hash function hit is calculated with value range from 0 to 2⁶⁴ ( denoted by 2⁶⁴ of N). By the cryptographic properties of hit its value can be regarded as a random variable x with a uniform distribution on the interval [0 , N]. Value of the function is recalculated when a new block appears.
On the function hit value time t is calculated in seconds by the formula:
t = x / (A * b) [1]
where x - is a random variable whose value hit, A - base target ratio is recalculated each unit in order to maintain the required rate of generation units ( performs the same function as the complexity of the system Bitcoin ), b - the balance of the wallet (coins). Wallet for which the value of t is the minimal generates the next block.
Consider two situations : 1) All of our available funds belong to the one wallet 2) Funds split into 2 wallet with equals sum.
Lets find out in which case the probability to generate a new block is higher.

1 ) Let wallets except our involved in the generation unit K₁, ..., K_n; their balances b₁, ..., b_n. Here we make assumption that each b_i > 0. Then the time to generate a block for each of them
t_k = x_k / (A * b_k); [2]
Denote t_m = min (t₁, ..., t_n). In order that our wallet would generate block the following condition must be satisfied t₀ <t_m where t₀ time of block generation by our wallet. After substituting [1] we get x / (A * b₀) <t_m where b₀ is the number of coins in our wallet , transform and obtain the condition for the random variable x
x <t_m * A * b₀
taking into account the uniformity of x the probability P is
P = min{1, (t_m * A * b₀) / N} [3]
Here we make assumption that 1 > (t_m * A * b₀) / N then
P = (t_m * A * b₀) / N [3.1]

2) The situation is the same but we have to balance two wallets b₀ / 2 on each of them. Probability that t₀₁ <t_m by the formula [3] is
p₁ = (t_m * A * b₀ / 2 ) / N = (t_m * A * b₀) / 2N
And substituting the value of [3.1], we obtain
p₁ = P/2
and for the second wallet
p₂ = (t_m * A * b₀ / 2 ) / N = (t_m * A * b₀) / 2N = P/2
the probability that our first wallet will not generate block
q₁ = 1-p₁ = 1 - P/2
and also for the second wallet
q₂ =1-p₂ = 1 - P/2
probability that neither the first nor the second wallet will not generate block is
q = q₁ * q₂ = (2-P) ² / 4
the probability that either the first or the second wallet block is generate
p = 1-q = 1 - (2-P) ² / 4 = (4-(2-P) ² ) / 4 = (4P-P² ) / 4 = P-P² / 4
so the final value
p = P-P² / 4 [4]
Ie probability to generate a block in the event of a less than half of funds in the case of storage facilities on one wallet to the square of this probability.

And simple example to illustrate what we talking about:
1) We have wallet with 2/3 of billion NXT and other person have wallet with 1/3 of the billion
2) We have two wallets with 1/3 of billion NXT and other person have wallet with 1/3 of the billion

2) is obviously we have probabilty of succes 2/3
but in case 1) we have probabilty of succes 3/4


Here on horisontal axis value of opponent hit function and on vertical value of our hit function. Red space - we win. Blue space - opponent win.

P.S You may notice that for our last example [4] is not correct. The reason that P is very big and our assumption that 1 > (t_m * A * b₀) / N for each possible t_m is not true. It's became true for P<1/2.

[BitThink]

Join a pool does not improve your forging income, but has a huge risk to lose all your Nxt. Why not just keep your own computer/VPS on? Therefore, apparently no one will join a pool like this. It's completely different from PoW pool mining where you don't need to risk anything other than the hashing power for one day or even just one hour.

The algorithm of forging is constructed such way so:
p=P-1/4*P²
Where P - is probability to forge block with some amount and p - is probability to forge block with the same amount but split to 2 wallet.
For the small amount different is very small. But for big it's not so small.
For example if we have wallet with about 200 000 000 NXT it's change of forge about 20%. If we split amount for two wallets with 100 000 000 NXT on each our chance became 19%
p = 0,2 - 1/4*0,04 = 0,19
Converse statement is also true. If we union two wallets with individual chance 9,5% of forge we increase their total chance. It became 20%. We can continue.
First column number of wallets we store NXT. Second - total chance to forge block. Third chance of each wallet to forge block.

1	20,0000%	20,0000%
2	19,0000%	9,5000%
4	18,0975%	4,5244%
8	17,2787%	2,1598%
16	16,5323%	1,0333%
32	15,8490%	0,4953%
64	15,2210%	0,2378%
128	14,6418%	0,1144%
256	14,1059%	0,0551%
512	13,6084%	0,0266%
1024	13,1455%	0,0128%

So if we has 1000 persons with 200 000 NXT each, when they unite to the pool they increase their income by a half!
But here we look in to very big pool. If pool power will bee 50 000 000 NXT. It will increase income of member with 50 000 NXT about 12%

If what you said is true, then either Nxt should fix this or it will worth nothing due to this unbelievable unfairness to prefer the large holders.

[Dervish]

We generate two more blocks but they was empty
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=1000&blk=15008136651107453394
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=1000&blk=2778462017552493231

[Dervish]

If what you said is true, then either Nxt should fix this or it will worth nothing due to this unbelievable unfairness to the large holders.

I sure that it can not be fixed easily.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Join a pool does not improve your forging income, but has a huge risk to lose all your Nxt. Why not just keep your own computer/VPS on? Therefore, apparently no one will join a pool like this. It's completely different from PoW pool mining where you don't need to risk anything other than the hashing power for one day or even just one hour.

The algorithm of forging is constructed such way so:
p=P-1/4*P²
Where P - is probability to forge block with some amount and p - is probability to forge block with the same amount but split to 2 wallet.
For the small amount different is very small. But for big it's not so small.
For example if we have wallet with about 200 000 000 NXT it's change of forge about 20%. If we split amount for two wallets with 100 000 000 NXT on each our chance became 19%
p = 0,2 - 1/4*0,04 = 0,19
Converse statement is also true. If we union two wallets with individual chance 9,5% of forge we increase their total chance. It became 20%. We can continue.
First column number of wallets we store NXT. Second - total chance to forge block. Third chance of each wallet to forge block.

1	20,0000%	20,0000%
2	19,0000%	9,5000%
4	18,0975%	4,5244%
8	17,2787%	2,1598%
16	16,5323%	1,0333%
32	15,8490%	0,4953%
64	15,2210%	0,2378%
128	14,6418%	0,1144%
256	14,1059%	0,0551%
512	13,6084%	0,0266%
1024	13,1455%	0,0128%

So if we has 1000 persons with 200 000 NXT each, when they unite to the pool they increase their income by a half!
But here we look in to very big pool. If pool power will bee 50 000 000 NXT. It will increase income of member with 50 000 NXT about 12%

If what you said is true, then either Nxt should fix this or it will worth nothing due to this unbelievable unfairness to the large holders.

This is not true. We already discussed this with Dervish in Russian. The fact that he continues to spread incorrect information makes me to suspect that he is going to conduct a scam.

This is his post, use Google Translate plz:

Дa я пoтepялв paccчётax кoэффицeнт.
Bыгoдa нecкoлькo мeньшe чeм я oжидaл.
Для 1 миллиoнa пpи oднoм дpoблeнии paзницa paвнa 0.03%.
Для 50 миллиoнoв пpи oднoм дpoблeнии paзницa paвнa 1.27%.

[Dervish]

This is not true. We already discussed this with Dervish in Russian. The fact that he continues to spread incorrect information makes me to suspect that he is going to conduct a scam.

This is his post, use Google Translate plz:

Дa я пoтepялв paccчётax кoэффицeнт.
Bыгoдa нecкoлькo мeньшe чeм я oжидaл.
Для 1 миллиoнa пpи oднoм дpoблeнии paзницa paвнa 0.03%.
Для 50 миллиoнoв пpи oднoм дpoблeнии paзницa paвнa 1.27%.

I said that my coefficient was incorrect, but not whole idea.

Дa я пoтepялв paccчётax кoэффицeнт.
Bыгoдa нecкoлькo мeньшe чeм я oжидaл.
Для 1 миллиoнa пpи oднoм дpoблeнии paзницa paвнa 0.03%.
Для 50 миллиoнoв пpи oднoм дpoблeнии paзницa paвнa 1.27%.

It means:

Yes I have lost coefficient calculation.
Benefit somewhat less than I expected.
For 1 million in a single splitting the difference is 0.03% (and here I quoted Come-from-Beyond)
For 50 millions in a single splitting the difference is 1.27%

And now I say that for 200 millions (20%) in a single splitting the difference is 5.26% (20%/19%)

Where is the lie?

[Dervish]

The equation for difference is
d=P/p=P/(P-P²/4)=4/(4-P)

for 1% (1 million) d = 4/3,99 = 1,0025 difference 0,025% CFB have rounded it to 0,03%
for 5% (5 millions) d = 4/3,95 = 1,01265 difference 1,265% I have rounded it to 1,27%
for 20% (20 millions) d = 4/3,8 = 1,05263 difference 5,26%

[BitThink]

The equation for difference is
d=P/p=P/(P-P²/4)=4/(4-P)

for 1% (1 million) d = 4/3,99 = 1,0025 difference 0,025% CFB have rounded it to 0,03%
for 5% (5 millions) d = 4/3,95 = 1,01265 difference 1,265% I have rounded it to 1,27%
for 20% (20 millions) d = 4/3,8 = 1,05263 difference 5,26%

Do you have any reference of p = P-P²/4?

Say if I have all the Nxts, my probability is certainly 1. Then I divide all my coins to two accounts, the probability of one account is (1 - 1/4) / 2 = 3/8 and the sum of my two accounts becomes 3/4? Does that mean there's 1/4 chance no forge in a round?

If I further divide them to 4 accounts, then the forge probability further decreases? So there're more empty rounds? Seems quite hard for me to understand.

EDIT:

What I said was not true.