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Author Topic: Hypothetical New Cryptocurrency version 0.1  (Read 3370 times)
Oldminer
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September 04, 2011, 12:15:12 AM
 #21


It's this total de-emphasis on mining that I think totally negates the possibility of my design catching on with this community, which is nothing more than a bunch of get-rich-quick maggots looking for a free ride.

I hope your paying attention to this Smoothie. He's talking to you boy  Grin

If you like my post please feel free to give me some positive rep https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=18639
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September 04, 2011, 12:46:37 AM
 #22


It's this total de-emphasis on mining that I think totally negates the possibility of my design catching on with this community, which is nothing more than a bunch of get-rich-quick maggots looking for a free ride.

I hope your paying attention to this Smoothie. He's talking to you boy  Grin
lol he is scared he will lose some money on his new "forK".

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Synaptic
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September 04, 2011, 01:13:01 AM
 #23


It's this total de-emphasis on mining that I think totally negates the possibility of my design catching on with this community, which is nothing more than a bunch of get-rich-quick maggots looking for a free ride.

I hope your paying attention to this Smoothie. He's talking to you boy  Grin
lol he is scared he will lose some money on his new "forK".

I am? Huh, I thought it was reasonable to expect to profit from one's own endeavors...
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September 04, 2011, 03:17:45 AM
 #24

I am? Huh, I thought it was reasonable to expect to profit from one's own endeavors...

It's reasonable, but you are going to have trouble making it work with a peer to peer currency that isn't implemented yet.

Don't mind oldminer. I think lead poisoning got to him from mining back in the olden times. The silly old fool is just trying to derail the only on-topic thread in alternate cryptocurrencies.
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September 04, 2011, 04:06:19 AM
 #25

this community, which is nothing more than a bunch of get-rich-quick maggots looking for a free ride.
...
like the shit-headed Bitcoiners
...
the disgusting profiteering and speculation of Bitcoin
I thought you were someone else. I get it now.

It is unfortunate that you do not appreciate the visionary revolutionaries that drive Bitcoin. I don't need to listen to these insults.

I have very little faith in your ability to understand and solve the challenges Bitcoin is facing. I still don't understand why you refuse to publish your design, and I can only assume that it is because it does not live up to the expectations.

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September 04, 2011, 04:48:49 AM
 #26

Without opening it up to scrutiny, this is still just vapors masquerading as a fix for a problem that might not be that important in the long run.
It sounds like yet again - someone is concerned about the unfairnesss of initial distribution more than the other important characteristics of the system.

Perhaps you could fast-forward to a time where bitcoin distribution has played out (approx 21M coins issues) and the function of mining is to secure the system.
What advantage does ?coin give and what problem is ?coin solving at this point?

Also - have you taken into consideration the 'perverse incentives' your system of measuring economic activity may encourage?
You talk of:
Quote
difficulty of maintaining some excruciatingly elaborate economic simulation across a majority of nodes

.. but in fact it is possible nowdays (and moreso every day) to steam up entire networks of virtual nodes running sophisticated software stacks - and we don't need to talk of 'majorities' for this to be a problem.

If fake economic activity gives even a marginal profit - it will become widespread enough to accelerate scalability issues on your chain.




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September 04, 2011, 05:45:54 AM
 #27

Without opening it up to scrutiny, this is still just vapors masquerading as a fix for a problem that might not be that important in the long run.
It sounds like yet again - someone is concerned about the unfairnesss of initial distribution more than the other important characteristics of the system.

Perhaps you could fast-forward to a time where bitcoin distribution has played out (approx 21M coins issues) and the function of mining is to secure the system.
What advantage does ?coin give and what problem is ?coin solving at this point?

Also - have you taken into consideration the 'perverse incentives' your system of measuring economic activity may encourage?
You talk of:
Quote
difficulty of maintaining some excruciatingly elaborate economic simulation across a majority of nodes

.. but in fact it is possible nowdays (and moreso every day) to steam up entire networks of virtual nodes running sophisticated software stacks - and we don't need to talk of 'majorities' for this to be a problem.

If fake economic activity gives even a marginal profit - it will become widespread enough to accelerate scalability issues on your chain.





Right, it is vaporware, no denying that. As I said before I started this thread, there's practically zero chance of this idea coming to market.

now to address your attack scenario:

I'm sorry that I can't provide in-depth descriptions of some of the critical measures that I wish to protect. I've already mentioned that there exists certain systemic assumptions that protect the network from automated attack. The only thing I can elaborate further on about these assumptions is that they don't RELY on breaking pseudo-anonymity to maintain the network, but that self-identification on the network DOES play a role. The only parallel that might be familiar to you is something like the intended functionality of namecoin. Use your imagination from there because I'm sorry, but this is already giving some good hints to any clever devs who know where I'm going with this.

Again, it's certainly feasible that ?coin could be gamed, but the point at which it's feasible for an attack to compromise the network is a point at which any sane end-user or merchant would have already liquefied his holdings into a competing currency. The beginning of the ?coin economy is protected from this because it will be built on trusted agents. This is what I mean by merchants being first-class citizens. This also ties into the namecoin-esque functionality of the design. Could some malicious merchant try to become established enough within the chain to at some point in the future leverage their position for ill? Sure, but unless that particular entity was basically 70% of the network transactions itself, all they would accomplish by trying to attack the chain by flooding it with bogus transactions is quickly removing themselves from the block weighting.

That's important to note: the quicker an attacker tries to exploit the system, the faster the system is able to remove their influence from the block weights,
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September 04, 2011, 10:48:26 PM
 #28

So, why hasn't there been more interest or debate about this idea?
julz
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September 04, 2011, 11:31:33 PM
 #29

So, why hasn't there been more interest or debate about this idea?

I think it's because handwaving and claims of secret sauces aren't enough to convince anyone you have a workable idea - and even if it is workable, your desire not to share your ideas fully goes somewhat against the grain of the open-source philosophy which most here would probably agree is ideal for a digital currency.

Look at the way the SolidCoin dev behaved - we don't need big egos who think they know how to do everything alone.
There's every chance that only a small portion of your ideas are useful, that others have similar ideas anyway, and that a pooling of ideas would come up with a better solution than one you attempt to tightly control.

I suspect that an interesting challenger to Bitcoin could come from a mining-less system along the lines of that proposed by Ben Laurie in his July 2011 paper
"An Efficient Distributed Currency"  http://www.links.org/files/distributed-currency.pdf

I expect this would be just as subject to speculation and hording though.

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September 04, 2011, 11:43:08 PM
 #30

So, why hasn't there been more interest or debate about this idea?

I think it's because handwaving and claims of secret sauces aren't enough to convince anyone you have a workable idea - and even if it is workable, your desire not to share your ideas fully goes somewhat against the grain of the open-source philosophy which most here would probably agree is ideal for a digital currency.

Look at the way the SolidCoin dev behaved - we don't need big egos who think they know how to do everything alone.
There's every chance that only a small portion of your ideas are useful, that others have similar ideas anyway, and that a pooling of ideas would come up with a better solution than one you attempt to tightly control.

I suspect that an interesting challenger to Bitcoin could come from a mining-less system along the lines of that proposed by Ben Laurie in his July 2011 paper
"An Efficient Distributed Currency"  http://www.links.org/files/distributed-currency.pdf

I expect this would be just as subject to speculation and hording though.


Interesting.  He touches on some of my design features, but is still lacking the most critical components protecting the chain.
Minsc
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September 06, 2011, 09:17:34 PM
 #31

I like the idea of mining for a profit, but the problem with bitcoin mining is profits are made by the rich.  That is whoever can afford the best hardware.  Rich people with already fast computers will mine lots of coins.  Poor people with crap computers can never mine jack.  Back when bitcoins were new my computer was 10 years old and I never mined a single coin with it despite trying.

Mining might be better with something like a CAPTCHA, but not those irritating CAPTCHAs that cause blindness due to eyestrain that computers can solve far easier than humans.

Basically what I think it should be is whoever can process an encrypt a transaction fastest gets transaction fees.  But who gets new coins is who can solve some puzzle a computer cannot.  And computers just process numbers and can't understand concepts so something on that nature.

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September 06, 2011, 09:21:56 PM
 #32

I like the idea of mining for a profit, but the problem with bitcoin mining is profits are made by the rich.  That is whoever can afford the best hardware.  Rich people with already fast computers will mine lots of coins.  Poor people with crap computers can never mine jack.  Back when bitcoins were new my computer was 10 years old and I never mined a single coin with it despite trying.

Mining might be better with something like a CAPTCHA, but not those irritating CAPTCHAs that cause blindness due to eyestrain that computers can solve far easier than humans.

Basically what I think it should be is whoever can process an encrypt a transaction fastest gets transaction fees.  But who gets new coins is who can solve some puzzle a computer cannot.  And computers just process numbers and can't understand concepts so something on that nature.

No.

Mining is an outmoded concept.

I find it hilarious that cryptocurrency is supposed to be the next revolutionary thing in this world, yet still adheres to bullshit meat-space concepts like "mining."

Why the FUCK should there be some analogue to retrieving a physical asset and proffering it for exchange in a wholly digital medium?

Because I ASSURE you that there are people as intelligent or more intelligent that realize just as I do that were BETTER than having these shit-headed meat-space analogues driving a "revolutionary" new digital currency.

I also assure you that the Satoshi entity was in all likely-hood completely aware of the pump-and-dump fundamentals of Bitcoin, and designed it thusly. That, or he's an idiot-savant who is just really clever at crypto and completely fucking retarded in all other Bitcoin regards.
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September 06, 2011, 09:24:50 PM
 #33

I think Satoshi read The Diamond Age and wanted a good chargeback proof currency.

I like mining, but I think it needs to stop being based on who can afford the most expensive computers.  The puzzles need to be made to be solved by humans far easier than computers so miners will be people spending all day at computers working 8 hours a day like a job.

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September 06, 2011, 09:29:14 PM
 #34

I think Satoshi read The Diamond Age and wanted a good chargeback proof currency.

I like mining, but I think it needs to stop being based on who can afford the most expensive computers.  The puzzles need to be made to be solved by humans far easier than computers so miners will be people spending all day at computers working 8 hours a day like a job.

Why do you like mining?

Why should a 100% digital currency need people to have computers computing cryptographic hashes when those hashes aren't needed?

In my system, coins are awarded in a very clever fashion, only when necessary.
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September 06, 2011, 09:31:15 PM
 #35

Encryption is for security.

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September 06, 2011, 09:32:17 PM
 #36

Encryption is for security.

Obviously.
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September 06, 2011, 11:59:28 PM
 #37

I don't think you're going to get many technical people onboard with all this hand-waving and a complete lack of any details.

Quote
However, it's important that I be the originator of the initial currency, to make sure that it's not altered before it's released and hopefully adopted.
By who? The idea of a peer-to-peer anything is that you need a community of peers to actually use it. I could create bitplanecoin where the founder gets ten million coins a day and the only way to get one is by sucking his dick, but I'd be the only node on the network.

Why not gather people who believe the same things as you, debate the rules for a system you think is fair then create a community around this plan? Referring to your secret sauce as "very clever" (we'll be the judge of that) and wanting nobody else to use it makes you sound like an ego who wants to rule over everyone, not someone looking for a peer group.
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September 08, 2011, 02:40:57 AM
 #38

Synaptic, it's clear that you have some great ideas but as you have admitted yourself, you lack the technical knowledge to implement them. Given this, I find it rather annoying that you still want to keep your ideas suppressed, rather than sharing them with the very people who you need to help you get your project off the ground.

You fear that disclosing your 'secret sauce' would lead to someone else taking the idea, and leaving out crucial parts that make the system work (for their own benefit). Well, if this happens... wouldn't the community be aware of it? And wouldn't this lead to loss of credibility in favor of any future full-implementation of the system you described? So, let the n00bies set up their shit-forks.

Heck and even if someone else did take the idea and implement it fully themselves, wouldn't it at least feel good to know that it only exists because of you? And like you said, they won't profit from the idea anyway. Don't you plan to make money from services derived from the currency and not from the currency itself? If so, then what does it matter who the one to compile it is?

The way I see it is that what you need in order to see your ideas into fruition is a group of people with a varied skill-set willing to work together to make it become a reality. Now, where I wonder could you find that? Oh wait...

It is obvious that you would have to relinquish ownership of your ideas for this to happen, but isn't this is the whole point of the open-source movement? Individually we are insignificant, together we can change the world! Yada yada..

I like your ideas, but I don't get your attitude. You have a fierce passion that is obvious in your posts, and are clearly intelligent with a lot to offer the p2p currency movement. But you also harbor a lot of enmity, evident from your insulting rants, and your egotistic attitude will only serve to segregate yourself from the very people who share you're beliefs and ideals and can help you implement your ideas.

So basically, what I'm saying, is either spit it out or shut the fuck up!

Also, can you stop with the self-praise and talking about how ingenious your ideas are? Like other's have said, we'll be the judge of that. I really hope you actually do spit it out, because, if there is anything to it you can count me in for one.  I'm sure, with a small attitude adjustment, you will be able to gather up enough minions to help you turn this vaporware into awesomeware.

But not if you keep acting like a proverbial crypto-hitler!

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September 08, 2011, 08:12:07 AM
 #39

To be frank, it is extremely unlikely that someone who does not know core CS (e.g. what "Byzantine Agreement" or "Sybil Attack" mean) would have a correct solution.  There is simply no way one could simultaneously have the ability to architect distributed systems and not be able to write it out precisely as code.

My suggestion is you simply describe your scheme so the CS folks here can explain to you why it is broken, and you can learn from it.  You should understand that preventing sybil attacks is basically the core open problem in p2p network security research, and no one has any idea how to do it without either a centralized identity issuer, or via extremely wasteful constant resource-tests (as in bitcoin).

So there are 3 options:
1) Your scheme falls into one of two above: central identity issuer, or waste of resources.
2) Your scheme falls outside them and is totally broken.
3) Your scheme falls outside them and is correct.  Congratulations, you should write it up, publish it in IPTPS, and collect the best paper award.  Perhaps a PhD too.

In particular, we have known since the very beginning[1] that central identity issue or waste of resources are all one can do in particular natural models.  You would need an entirely new model.  

You might also find this useful, a scheme I described that makes the coin generation set by vote.  My scheme falls into (1), as it is still wasting resources: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24929.0

[1]  http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download;jsessionid=2275703DE2E08EC0E7CEF3321E53506A?doi=10.1.1.17.1073&rep=rep1&type=pdf

EDIT: This is the first time I've written a post in this kind of condescending tone.  Mostly it's because of the fact that on the one hand, you  recognize 99% of people on this forum are get-rich-quick retards, and on the other, in this thread you are basically behaving in the same way.  You have an irrational faith in something that you are not an expert in,  have not had vetted by anyone, and refuse to even discuss/describe so that others may attempt to reason with you.  You have basically come here and announced that you've struck gold and are going to make it big, but just need someone to code it up (reminds me of the million "I have an idea for an iphone app" crap from MBAs).  Anyway, I'd encourage you to look through my posts and recognize I (and the other CS folks here) could probably offer quite a bit of help to you if you're willing to be rational and explain your system in a complete and coherent manner.  But until you do that, your posts of "why isn't anyone interested?" are laughable.  Noone has anything to say because you've provided absolutely no information to respond to.

Really.  Go back and read your "I'm so clever I have a scheme for a perfect crypto-currency;l but I just need a coder" posts earlier in this thread.  Then go to the main discussion and read some of the "We are all going to be rich when bitcoins are $1M each because we got in early; but we just need to get more new buyers".  Then realize the logic in both cases is identical.
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September 08, 2011, 08:17:09 AM
 #40

but I will try to reveal as much as I can without giving away the cake.
The mere fact that you mention some sort of "cake", some sort of advantage you'd lose by fully exposing your concept puts this whole thread in my TL;DR stash.

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