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Author Topic: EU to declare bitcoin as 'overlay currency'  (Read 7098 times)
cypherdoc
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September 03, 2011, 10:10:02 PM
 #21

genjix and Donald Norman are on record numerous times trying to seek a regulatory framework for Bitcoin in the UK for better or for worse.  i'm sure he's just revealing this tidbit of info from his negotiations.
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becoin
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September 03, 2011, 10:27:34 PM
 #22

It is important for reputable businesses that Bitcoin gets a solid legal foundation - otherwise they would never consider accepting it as payment.
Bitcoin CAN NOT get solid legal foundation because there is no precedent. If Bitcoin has to be regulated new laws has to be created from scratch. The law has to follow Bitcoin and not vice versa! Asking FSA for permission to trade Bitcoin is the same as asking the coachmen syndicate for permission to assemble and drive the first automobile just after the modern internal combustion engine was invented back in 1862... It is quite obvious what answer you can expect.

The legal foundation of Bitcoin already exists and is indeed fundamental - Everything that is not forbidden is allowed! And this is the leading principal of the entire humankind progress.

Now, if OP's information is correct, a total regulatory mess is in the pipes. Not only reputable businesses but also not quite reputable businesses will give up using Bitcoin.

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cypherdoc
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September 03, 2011, 10:35:56 PM
 #23

It is important for reputable businesses that Bitcoin gets a solid legal foundation - otherwise they would never consider accepting it as payment.
Bitcoin CAN NOT get solid legal foundation because there is no precedent. If Bitcoin has to be regulated new laws has to be created from scratch. The law has to follow Bitcoin and not vice versa! Asking FSA for permission to trade Bitcoin is the same as asking the coachmen syndicate for permission to assemble and drive the first automobile just after the modern internal combustion engine was invented back in 1862... It is quite obvious what answer you can expect.

The legal foundation of Bitcoin already exists and is indeed fundamental - Everything that is not forbidden is allowed! And this is the leading principal of the entire humankind progress.

Now, if OP's information is correct, a total regulatory mess is in the pipes. Not only reputable businesses but also not quite reputable businesses will give up using Bitcoin.

well in that case then it'll just trade like gold; the price will skyrocket and no one will do business in it.
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September 03, 2011, 10:37:32 PM
 #24

Everything that is not forbidden is allowed!

I strongly advice you to not bet on that being true for all different national jurisdictions.

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September 03, 2011, 10:42:13 PM
 #25

I googled 'overlay currency' and found nothing. Currency Overlay is a strategy conducted by a firm. So if this is the case, then it's unlikely that firms will use bitcoin for this type of strategy. I don't see how this will affect bitcoin in any way.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
becoin
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September 03, 2011, 10:47:22 PM
 #26

I strongly advice you to not bet on that being true for all different national jurisdictions.
You don't know what are you talking about, do you? What I'm talking about is a very basic legal principal that exists in every modern legal system since the times of the ancient Roman jurisprudence! Do you think UK is an exception?

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Piper67
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September 03, 2011, 11:05:37 PM
 #27

I strongly advice you to not bet on that being true for all different national jurisdictions.
You don't know what are you talking about, do you? What I'm talking about is a very basic legal principal that exists in every modern legal system since the times of the ancient Roman jurisprudence! Do you think UK is an exception?

Heh, actually, the UK is THE exception to Roman Jurisprudence!!!
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September 03, 2011, 11:09:15 PM
 #28

I strongly advice you to not bet on that being true for all different national jurisdictions.
You don't know what are you talking about, do you? What I'm talking about is a very basic legal principal that exists in every modern legal system since the times of the ancient Roman jurisprudence! Do you think UK is an exception?

Heh, actually, the UK is THE exception to Roman Jurisprudence!!!
To the best of my knowledge, the Common Law that is used in the UK has the same very basic principle. In fact it goes even further, and under common law itself it would not even be possible to make bitcoin illegal.

Like my post(s)? 12TSXLa5Tu6ag4PNYCwKKSiZsaSCpAjzpu Smiley
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defxor
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September 03, 2011, 11:16:35 PM
 #29

You don't know what are you talking about, do you? What I'm talking about is a very basic legal principal that exists in every modern legal system since the times of the ancient Roman jurisprudence! Do you think UK is an exception?

Some countries go mostly by "letter of the law". Some mostly by "spirit of the law".

I live in the latter. I can only assume you live in the former.
wareen
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September 04, 2011, 12:59:20 AM
 #30

The legal foundation of Bitcoin already exists and is indeed fundamental - Everything that is not forbidden is allowed! And this is the leading principal of the entire humankind progress.
You misunderstood me - it's not about Bitcoin being forbidden - it's about accounting principles, tax purpose, dealing with gains/losses/currency conversion in the books etc. It's about the "how" not the "if".

Quote
Now, if OP's information is correct, a total regulatory mess is in the pipes. Not only reputable businesses but also not quite reputable businesses will give up using Bitcoin.
Quite the opposite I'd say - every business has to treat Bitcoin somehow in the books and right now everyone can only make intelligent guesses and hope nobody complains. Even if the regulations would somehow limit the usefulness of Bitcoin (eg. stricter KYC rules), the situation would probably still be an improvement because businesses at least know exactly how to handle BTC.

But we probably have to wait until we know more before we can draw any conclusions...
Vladimir
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September 04, 2011, 01:00:43 AM
 #31

as wareen said.

uncertainty is bad for biz

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Piper67
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September 04, 2011, 01:27:53 AM
 #32

It is important for reputable businesses that Bitcoin gets a solid legal foundation - otherwise they would never consider accepting it as payment.
Bitcoin CAN NOT get solid legal foundation because there is no precedent. If Bitcoin has to be regulated new laws has to be created from scratch. The law has to follow Bitcoin and not vice versa! Asking FSA for permission to trade Bitcoin is the same as asking the coachmen syndicate for permission to assemble and drive the first automobile just after the modern internal combustion engine was invented back in 1862... It is quite obvious what answer you can expect.

The legal foundation of Bitcoin already exists and is indeed fundamental - Everything that is not forbidden is allowed! And this is the leading principal of the entire humankind progress.

Now, if OP's information is correct, a total regulatory mess is in the pipes. Not only reputable businesses but also not quite reputable businesses will give up using Bitcoin.

Precisely the opposite. With a currency/commodity like Bitcoin, a regulatory framework is a fantastic idea, because bypassing it, while not exactly easy, is certainly possible. More and more we're going to see in the developed countries what the "developing" world has known for decades: a hybrid of legality and pseudo-legality in the economy.

In most of the world, there is a legal economic framework on the surface, supported by another, in some cases fully illegal, in others of dubious legality. These frameworks coexist and actually require each other for the country's economy to survive.

Bitcoin fits this model perfectly. Some things above board and open, others hidden, both coexisting and supporting one another.
Stephen Gornick
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September 04, 2011, 01:57:56 AM
 #33

In the U.S. there is regulation that goes into effect this month that could possibly have an impact on Bitcoin.

FinCEN (U.S. Dept. of Treasury) has made a Final Ruling on Prepaid Access.

There has been surprisingly little concern over it, either from Bitcoiners or from Prepaid Card Vendors whose business will most definitely be impacted:
 - http://www.bitcoinmoney.com/post/8412471372
and a countering argument here:
 - http://blogdial.wordpress.com/2011/08/03/bitcoins-are-baseball-cards

This lack of concern could be because it really is a stretch to classify Bitcoin as either a stored value instrument or a prepayment of a value.

That bitcoin might be considered a "stored value" allegedly comes a FinCEN staffer "Bradley Stevens" who left a voicemail for the now defunct Bitcoin USA in response to their request to know how FinCEN would classify Bitcoin:
 - http://bitcointalk.org/?topic=5627.msg108978#msg108978
 - http://www.bitcoinmoney.com/post/5431115607/bitcoins-legal-status

Christian Pezza
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September 04, 2011, 02:23:53 AM
 #34

Just a though

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_overlay

If you like this tread consider to donate some to https://bitcointalk.org/donate.html
wareen
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September 04, 2011, 08:08:17 AM
 #35

Thanks, but it was already explained what 'currency overlay' is - we're still trying to figure out what exactly an 'overlay currency' might be and what consequences this has.

In the U.S. there is regulation that goes into effect this month that could possibly have an impact on Bitcoin.
I don't think Bitcoin is affected by this particular upcoming regulation but it might be by the next one.

AFAIK there is no clear community consensus about what Bitcoin should be in the context of current laws but it might be desirable to get to such a point because then we could speak unisono for/against certain kinds of regulations.

IMHO treating them as collectibles (the Baseball card analogy from the blog post you linked) would be the most rational thing to do. Not only because it will be hard to overly regulate dealing with collectibles but also because I honestly don't see how it can currently be viewed as anything else (not being pegged to anything, etc...).

Maybe we should advertise them as pieces of mathematical art because that's what they are, really Wink
becoin
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September 04, 2011, 08:18:21 AM
 #36

as wareen said.

uncertainty is bad for biz
Yeah, stick to government's fiat money. You'll have certainty for sure. Don't push people to Bitcoin.

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September 04, 2011, 09:44:08 AM
 #37

Quote
In economics, regulatory capture occurs when a state regulatory agency created to act in the public interest instead advances the commercial or special interests that dominate the industry or sector it is charged with regulating. Regulatory capture is a form of government failure, as it can act as an encouragement for large firms to produce negative externalities. The agencies are called "captured agencies".

So the companies that are regulated and have to bear huge overheads in taxation and paperwork go after the ones who dont have the burden ie they divide and conquer.
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September 04, 2011, 02:36:01 PM
 #38

Err how was this information obtained? Did the person talk to FSA or someone in the EU commission? Is there any EU politician or finance ministry that is semi-publicly stating this? And IRC chat log doesnt seem that creditable.

+1
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September 24, 2011, 06:01:54 PM
 #39

ia there any news on this topic?

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September 25, 2011, 08:51:00 PM
 #40

Everything that is not forbidden is allowed!

everything IS forbidden.
What do you think we have zillions of laws for?

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