Discussion between SolidCoin Founder and Gavin Andresen

[Bitsky]

So I thought about taking a closer look at SolidCoin since threads about it keep popping up.

Now I won't.

RealSolid's way of handling this is arrgoant and he comes across as a huge drama queen.
He also seems not to be interested in giving back fixes to the project from which he forked his.

Perhaps SolidCoin is good, but with a project leader like this I won't touch it with a 10' pole.

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[wolftaur]

When SC first came out I had some discussions with CoinHunter. At first he seemed perfectly likable.

Well, the posted log didn't change my mind, my mind's been changed since about three days after I chatted with him, but the posted log did go over the top to where I gotta say something.

The guy is arrogant, selfish, condescending, and not actually smart enough to where he has any right to be arrogant and condescending. I find the idea of him being in charge of a project offensive. Open source being what it is, he has the right to be in charge of a project, but anyone who asks my opinion of SolidCoin is going to hear some choice commentary about why you don't depend on a product that's coded by someone who's so much of a self-deluded prick that he opens up a massive attack to his software solely because he refuses to listen to anyone who's trying to help, thanks to his major personality and self-esteem issues to where you can't even hint he made a mistake without him coming out about how verbally abusive you are and you're obviously just a Bitcoin fan who wants to destroy everything he's worked for.

CoinHunter, I know you'll read this and flip out. Especially since the first time we talked and I was trying to be supportive and wanting to do some bug-hunting on the OSX version of the client you decided to throw 100 SolidCoins at me. Feel free to post an address and I can send them back to you if that's what you want.

Though it's going to take me a while. I had my coins running on a netbook, and since you couldn't heed ArtForz's warning, I'm going to have to run the client on something else. Something about a multi-gigabyte database commit log because you don't know what the fuck you're doing and are too arrogant to listen to someone's advice. My netbook only has a few gigs free, it's a pretty small SSD, and, well...

Advice. The next time someone you liked well enough to give a bunch of free coins to, and you were discussing new logos with him, etc, actually comes to you asking if you'd be willing to discuss whether or not ArtForz' comments might indicate an actual flaw, try not being so much of a dick in your response that I decide I don't actually care if your project gets attacked or not.

I tried, you fucked up. Majorly. Have a nice failure.

[wolftaur]

Well, there is probably enough usable code in version 0.3 to fork a solidc0in if anyone is willing to bother.

Apparently, someone did. As long as they move to a real development cycle and develop under reasonable rules the currency itself might have a chance, but CoinHunter did a fantastic job of urinating all over it.

[simonk83]

The more

http://www.incoherentphotography.com/uploads/2011.09.04-07.17.48.txt

quite interesting, have a look.

the main highlights, hopefully I didn't take anything out of context. I wouldn't like to start sounding like a generic media outlet.
I'm not cherry picking if I include the fulltext, right?  

Code:

[06:35] <gavinandresen> Hey everybody.  Is RealSolid here?
[06:35] <@RealSolid> in my lucid moments
[06:36] <gavinandresen> So you asked in private message on the forums why you should report denial-of-service vulnerabilities to Jeff or me....
[06:36] <gavinandresen> ... and I thought that would be obvious.
[06:36] <gavinandresen> You seem to be upset with us for some reason-- did I say something somewhere to offend you or solidcoin?
[06:37] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: no not you but your other developers
[06:37] <gavinandresen> Well, I can't speak for the other developers, but I personally would appreciate it if you let me know of any vulnerabilities or deficiencies in bitcoin.
[06:38] <gavinandresen> No software is perfect, and bitcoin is way-very-far from perfect.
[06:38] <@RealSolid> i know that, having changed a lot of it
[06:39] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: the SC network was attacked by one of your supporters/developers
[06:39] <@RealSolid> in artforz
[06:39] <@RealSolid> now someone is doing the same attack to btc
[06:40] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: but the issue i found is more relating to being able to potentially crash clients and run them out of memory
[06:41] <gavinandresen> ArtForz isn't a bitcoin developer.  He is very smart, though, and you should listen to him (he helped find a couple of nasty bitcoin bugs last year)
[06:42] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: so youre promoting his attack on the network
[06:42] <gavinandresen> No.  He should have done what he did on the solidcoin test network.
[06:42] <gavinandresen> (you do have a test network, right?)
[06:42] <@RealSolid> sure if anyone runs it
[06:43] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: but he didnt do it
[06:43] <@RealSolid> and your support of a hacker is interesting
[06:43] <@RealSolid> "no he shouldnt have done it , but boys will be boys come on"
[06:44] <gavinandresen> Hackers and script-kiddies are a fact of life, which is exactly why I'm asking you to let me know when you find potential issues.  So we have a chance to fix them before the hackers take advantage of them.
[06:44] <@RealSolid> csshih: hes essentially supporting a known hacker who has caused chaos for thousands of people
[06:45] <@RealSolid> artforz did it mainly just to piss of solidcoin users
[06:45] <@RealSolid> and i find the developer of bitcoin semi-supporting him by telling me to "listen to him
[06:45] <@RealSolid> as rather offensive
[06:45] <gavinandresen> You should listen to ArtForz, as I said he's very smart.
[06:46] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: ok you should listen to him too then, get him to fix your bugs
[06:47] <@RealSolid> if gavin wants to come here to tell me to listen to a blackhat hacker
[06:47] <@RealSolid> he is trying to be offensive
[06:47] <gavinandresen> Ok, this is silly, I don't want to get dragged into "you're supporting a KNOWN TERRORIST!"
[06:48] <gavinandresen> I came here to ask RealSolid to be responsible and report problems or vulnerabilities to the core bitcoin dev team before releasing code that fixes the exploit (because releasing code tells the hackers what to attack).  RealSolid, I'll ask again:  are you willing to do that?
[06:49] <@RealSolid> you ask me to be responsible when your team and supporters are hacking the SC network
[06:49] <gavinandresen> They aren't "my" supporters.  It is not even really "my" team
[06:49] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: if they arent, then i dont understand your tone, maybe youre ignorant about the situation
[06:49] <gavinandresen> (and did Pieter or Jeff or Nils do somethign to solidcoin?)
[06:51] <@RealSolid> we're drama queens
[06:52] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: we've had 2 weeks of many of your developers trashing solidcoin
[06:52] <@RealSolid> and then weve had some of your biggest supporters hacking/exploiting/spamming the networtk
[06:52] <@RealSolid> for you to come in completely ignorant and tell me to listen to the main hacker
[06:52] <@RealSolid> annoys me
[06:53] <@RealSolid> so either you pull the people in line who are supporting you and your project or i dont help your project
[06:53] <@RealSolid> i dont appreciate your people attacking us
[06:53] <gavinandresen> If you watch the talk I gave at the bitcoin conference a couple of weeks ago, I say my #1 qualification for being the project lead is having a thick skin
[06:54] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: i dont understand how you can come here completely ignorant about the last 2 weeks
[06:54] <gavinandresen> My advice to you if you want solidcoin to be a success is to step away from the keyboard when you're annoyed.
[06:54] <@RealSolid> its like you were living in cave
[06:54] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: SC will be a success because i know how to develop successful products
[06:55] <@RealSolid> am i the one asking bitcoin developers for help?
[06:55] <@RealSolid> gavin is here asking me for help
[06:55] <@RealSolid> and he is being offensive in the process
[06:56] <@RealSolid> csshih: artforz is the known hacker, there are others
[06:56] <@RealSolid> gavin came here and told me to listen to the hacker
[06:57] <@RealSolid> csshih: i didnt realize he was a hacker
[06:57] <@RealSolid> until the attack
[06:57] <@RealSolid> he is writing utter bs on the forums about "Warning me"
[06:57] <@RealSolid> he talked to me about 51% attacks
[06:58] <@RealSolid> then he just spams the chain using low fees
[06:58] <@RealSolid> csshih: it doesnt matter if gavin has nothing to do with it, him not knowing the situation and telling me to listen to a hacker is offensive
[06:59] <gavinandresen> So RealSolid, I want to make sure I understand why you decided to create solidcoin-- you think core bitcoin development is going way too slow, and we're not open to new features that will make it better.  Do I have that right?
[07:00] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: that is correct
[07:00] <@RealSolid> i already discussed many of the improvements i wanted in bitcoin prior to starting it
[07:00] <@RealSolid> and no one thought they were needed
[07:01] <@RealSolid> the only option is to create what i thought was the better design
[07:01] <gavinandresen> Well, it is all about risk/reward.  And with core bitcoin, the risks are very high, partly because Satoshi isn't around and he is the only person who really truly deeply understands all of the code.  But mostly because we're talking real money here.
[07:02] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: i understand your hesitance with touching working code
[07:02] <@RealSolid> however the code is a big mess
[07:02] <@RealSolid> and theres so many issues with it and i havent even finished
[07:02] <gavinandresen> ... and several groups are working on re-implementing it, which I support.
[07:02] <@RealSolid> oh?
[07:02] <gavinandresen> What I don't understand is if you want bitcoin to get better, why would you prohibit changes from flowing back upstream?
[07:03] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: because of the morons in your dvelopment team, and other supporters trolling us
[07:03] <gavinandresen> Okey doke.  Like I said, if you want to lead an open source project you'd better have a really thick skin.  That's just the nature of the beast.
[07:04] <@RealSolid> its open source, ask before you use
[07:04] <@RealSolid> simple
[07:04] <Snapman> if you need permisson, that means you allow some, disallow others, that isnt open source..
[07:04] <shadders> ask before you use but don't bother if you're a bitcoin dev coz the answer's no...
[07:04] <Snapman> more liek selective source
[07:04] <@RealSolid> shadders: i never said no to him using source
[07:05] <@RealSolid> hes asking me to pinpoint one of the vulns i know about
[07:05] <@RealSolid> even though the source is there
[07:05] <@RealSolid> ie he wants a short cut
[07:06] <gavinandresen> I would like you to send me private email about vulnerabilities BEFORE releasing source.
[07:06] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: id like you to tell your supporters to not attack SC
[07:07] <@RealSolid> quid pro quo
[07:07] <gavinandresen> Again, they are not "my" supporters, and if I start trying to tell them what to do they'll just laugh at me.
[07:07] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: thats not the impression i get
[07:08] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: you apparently know artforz and think good things about him
[07:08] <Phoebus> What's the big idea? We want a project like bitcoin to really make it, or bitcoin itself. Are we on the same side? The rest is just group dynamics, us vs them BS.
[07:08] <@RealSolid> its not like you have no say to people like him
[07:08] <gavinandresen> Phoebus: +1
[07:08] <@RealSolid> shadders: i dont waste my time with such things, id rather write working code
[07:09] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: i think you should step down from bitcoin development and let it fail
[07:09] <@RealSolid> because its going to fail soon enough
[07:09] <gavinandresen> Ok, I've said what I came to say, I'll catch y'all later.
[07:10] * gavinandresen has left #solidcoin

using code tags for easy scrolling. copy/paste into your favorite word processor for easier reading.


Craig

The more I read "RealSolids" posts, the more I'm really starting to dislike him.   I was fine with SolidCoin sitting there doing it's thing before all this crap happened, but now I'm swaying more to the "let it fail" side just to piss this idiot off.

[simonk83]

EDIT:  Bah, not worth it.  Obviously a pre-schooler.

[wolftaur]

The more I read "RealSolids" posts, the more I'm really starting to dislike him.   I was fine with SolidCoin sitting there doing it's thing before all this crap happened, but now I'm swaying more to the "let it fail" side just to piss this idiot off.

SELL! SELL! SELL!

... if you can find an exchange that takes SC still open by the time you process a five gigabyte database journal commit.

[TwistedPair]

I'm not surprised by RealSolid's attitude.

It reflects perfectly the FUD articles on solidcoin.info about the "top-5 reasons" and "Ready for Bitcoin collapse" on why solidcoin was so much better than bitcoin/ixcoin/i0coin.

Releasing untested 'improvements' (taken from commits from other bitcoin developers I might add) does not make for a more secure network. The recent attack proves this clearly.

[coblee]

I can't wait for the hacker to come to bitcoin, release virus signatures into the block chain and when the majority of consumers have disabled virus scanning of bitcoin they release a real virus into the network.  That would be f'ing great at this point.

It seems like we still have a SolidCoin supported left! lol
Do you even know how viruses work? Now tell me how to add viruses to the block chain. If anything, I'd expect the next SC release from RealSolid to contain a bitcoin wallet stealing trojan. Be careful...

[wolftaur]

Do you even know how viruses work?

Given some of this guy's posts I think he probably thinks the internet is a big series of tubes.

[Starlightbreaker]

I can't wait for the hacker to come to bitcoin, release virus signatures into the block chain and when the majority of consumers have disabled virus scanning of bitcoin they release a real virus into the network.  That would be f'ing great at this point.

It seems like we still have a SolidCoin supported left! lol
Do you even know how viruses work? Now tell me how to add viruses to the block chain. If anything, I'd expect the next SC release from RealSolid to contain a bitcoin wallet stealing trojan. Be careful...

the most destructive thing you can put in the block chain is a penis ascii.
....or prayers.

either way, won't do much damage.

haha

[wolftaur]

the most destructive thing you can put in the block chain is a penis ascii.
....or prayers.

8=>

Dear lord, please forgive me for giving CoinHunter a stiffie that's unrealistically large.

There, much easier than doing it in the block chain.

[wolftaur]

This is more suitable for the cum guzzler.

~~~(|===3

Oh, is that what they call people who modify code they don't understand now?

[BitcoinPorn]

More +1 Gavin praise.  I had not read all that shit until now.  Even giving the benefit of the doubt to RealSolid on how he initially went into the conversation, his not accepting the fact that Gavin does not = the Bitcoin supporters nor control them, well there you go, the rest of the conversation is pretty much moot after that.

[CoinHunter]

More +1 Gavin praise.  I had not read all that shit until now.  Even giving the benefit of the doubt to RealSolid on how he initially went into the conversation, his not accepting the fact that Gavin does not = the Bitcoin supporters nor control them, well there you go, the rest of the conversation is pretty much moot after that.

I understand Gavin has very little influence or control over the other developers. What I didn't appreciate was Gavin telling me to "listen to" the hacker which attacked the network. I had already fixed the issues which artforz was taking advantage of to disrupt service to thousands of people. If you can't see that it is indeed offensive to come into a channel and tell someone that the guy attacking the network you support is smart and worthy of being listened to then I can't help you.

If artforz had any decency about him he would have simply left our discussion where it was (about 5 lines worth). Instead he went malicious and people are congratulating him on it? The mind boggles.

When bitcoin starts being attacked will the same people be congratulating the FBI or SomethingAwful trolls for "strengthening" the network?

[wolftaur]

I understand Gavin has very little influence or control over the other developers. What I didn't appreciate was Gavin telling me to "listen to" the hacker which attacked the network. I had already fixed the issues which artforz was taking advantage of to disrupt service to thousands of people. If you can't see that it is indeed offensive to come into a channel and tell someone that the guy attacking the network you support is smart and worthy of being listened to then I can't help you.

No, Gavin told you you should have listened. He was right. The network wouldn't have even been attackable if you weren't such an arrogant prick. Like when you flipped out on me for asking if you'd be willing to let me go over ArtForz' disclosure with you to see if it was a problem. I think your private response to me included an accusation that ArtForz was just jealous and full of shit, right?

[BitcoinPorn]

I understand Gavin has very little influence or control over the other developers. What I didn't appreciate was Gavin telling me to "listen to" the hacker which attacked the network. I had already fixed the issues which artforz was taking advantage of to disrupt service to thousands of people. If you can't see that it is indeed offensive to come into a channel and tell someone that the guy attacking the network you support is smart and worthy of being listened to then I can't help you.

You have to accept that the intention was not to offend, it was just harsh truth regarding ArtForz who, though in a way I fucking hate beyond belief, is doing that dev / programmer thing of breaking other peoples toys for no real reason.   I still think what he did is shit, but man, attempting to slander Gavin's name through the forums as a "Hacker Supporter" when that is blowing what he is saying out of proportions.  If he told ArtForz to do the attacks, he is a hacker supporter.  If he even said what Art did was a good thing, he is a hacker supporter.  He only said for you to listen to him, and take it as a compliment that it took a 'smart guy' fuck with your network, it would have sucked if he was an idiot.

If artforz had any decency about him he would have simply left our discussion where it was (about 5 lines worth). Instead he went malicious and people are congratulating him on it? The mind boggles.

I can't agree with you enough here, it makes me sad some of the actions that come from Bitcoin users.  I don't think they teach 'be the bigger person' in school anymore or something.

When bitcoin starts being attacked will the same people be congratulating the FBI or SomethingAwful trolls for "strengthening" the network?

If it survives, yes.   Will it be the same for SolidCoin, time will tell, I think you are doing well so far with so much bullshit going on with SolidCoin.

[sd]

If it survives, yes.   Will it be the same for SolidCoin, time will tell, I think you are doing well so far with so much bullshit going on with SolidCoin.

Are you crazy? He caused the bullshit by lying his ass off about BitCoin whilst releasing a far less stable copy of BitCoin.

The guy is not stable enough to be project lead on his own shopping.

[wolftaur]

If it survives, yes.   Will it be the same for SolidCoin, time will tell, I think you are doing well so far with so much bullshit going on with SolidCoin.

Are you crazy? He caused the bullshit by lying his ass off about BitCoin whilst releasing a far less stable copy of BitCoin.

The guy is not stable enough to be project lead on his own shopping.

<CoinHunter> FORK YOU!
<ArtForz> Fork you right back.
<CoinHunter> FORK YOU GAVIN!

[CoinHunter]

No, Gavin told you you should have listened. He was right. The network wouldn't have even been attackable if you weren't such an arrogant prick.

That's wrong, the same attack (and others artforz is aware of) are possible with Bitcoin, at relatively little expense. The reason artforz decided to attack SolidCoin was due to his own ego, dislike for me and the project and the fact he is malicious in nature. Artforz "warning" me is also a bit of a joke, he sent me about 5 lines of text, mainly talking about 51% attacks. I simply said the "extra" 51% attacks are irrelevant because at 51% you're dead anyhow. This somehow get's translated into me "fobbing him off" and "not listening" . It's a bit of a joke.

I don't like a few people it doesn't mean I want to harm them. That is the difference between a professional and a hacker who couldn't care less. Anyone cheering on the SC attacks is just asking to be proved a fool when bitcoin is attacked in the same manner.

In regards to Gavin, if he didn't come to the channel ignorant about what had been going on with regards to attacks to SolidCoin and some of bitcoin developers comments and attitudes things would have gone a lot better. It was fathers day that day, and I had to spend part of my day away from my family dealing with more shit from a hacker. He was asking me a favour and insulted me in the process. Obviously bitcoin supporters won't be happy with the conversation because I didn't act like Jesus entered the channel but I do feel the lead developer of Bitcoin shouldn't be ignorant about what is going on in his own "scene". And he should try at least to use his influence with people he knows.

[wolftaur]

That's wrong, the same attack (and others artforz is aware of) are possible with Bitcoin, at relatively little expense. The reason artforz decided to attack SolidCoin was due to his own ego, dislike for me and the project and the fact he is malicious in nature. Artforz "warning" me is also a bit of a joke, he sent me about 5 lines of text, mainly talking about 51% attacks. I simply said the "extra" 51% attacks are irrelevant because at 51% you're dead anyhow. This somehow get's translated into me "fobbing him off" and "not listening" . It's a bit of a joke.

The big joke is you seem to think ArtForz has no reason to dislike you that much.