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Author Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency  (Read 9619940 times)
qwizzie
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August 14, 2020, 09:37:47 AM
Last edit: August 14, 2020, 10:08:08 AM by qwizzie

This sub-forum still has a few Russian trolls it seems Roll Eyes

Dahaa, what happened to your troll buddy Alexey45 ?
Please don't tell me you two broke up ? Over Dash ?  Grin

No more vodka shots for you two !! --> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg53168279#msg53168279

My nickname for Dahaa & Alexey45 : TRTT (The Russian Troll Twins)

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August 14, 2020, 09:45:24 AM

How exactly did you come to that conclusion? Where is the evidence qwizzie is a defender of money scams? Where is the evidence he gets paid?


As i thought, all talk but no evidence to support his talks.
This forum is full of people like that.
You're a fucking defender of money scams. How much do you get paid?

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August 14, 2020, 10:13:03 AM

4969 active masternodes =  4,969,000 dash out of circulation and long term invested.

What's not out of circulation unfortunately is the 340,000 "free" Dash per year from those nodes, that's never been subjected to competitive mining, raining down on markets.
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August 14, 2020, 10:44:30 AM
Last edit: August 14, 2020, 10:57:47 AM by qwizzie

4969 active masternodes =  4,969,000 dash out of circulation and long term invested.

What's not out of circulation unfortunately is the 340,000 "free" Dash per year from those nodes, that's never been subjected to competitive mining, raining down on markets.

Not my 'free' Dash, which of course is not free Dash but simply Return on Investment. Nothing wrong for people to be in a position to get Return on Investment (you are in that very same position
as masternode operator, toknormal. Unless you actually sold your masternode/s). Traditional stockholders are in that position too and you don't hear people complaining about 'free' money in that market section.

Actually i am in the middle of trying to make some ROI on my ROI. I suspect a lot of masternode rewards either get saved up due to low Dash price or sent off to a certain exchange (starts with B) to collect interest.
The mining rewards on the other hand, i do see raining down on markets. Raining down hard ! Like raining down really really really hard !!


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August 14, 2020, 10:59:39 AM

Not my 'free' Dash, which of course is not free Dash but simply Return on Investment.

It's free if it's obtained at a 100% profit margin.

The mining rewards on the other hand, i do see raining down on markets. Raining down hard ! Like raining down really really really hard !!

At least that's a legitimate "return" since miners do actually invest something into the network against that return. Their "profits" are revenue over cost from a genuine, real world commercial activity. Masternode rewards on the other hand are a simple "redenomination". That is not a return on investment. It's taking my bank balance and redenominating the same bank balance into smaller units.

Mining reward "raining down on markets" isn't a problem. All mined coins have it (and ALL our competitors have it to more than twice the extent we do and it doesn't cause them an issue). 5000 masternodes all receiving 6500 "free" coins per week though IS a problem because it's an overhead that Dash has to bear ON TOP of the mining cost which barely changes with reward ratio.

So we need to collect DOUBLE the fiat from markets that our competitors do. What does the market do to our valuation in that event as a response ?

Halves the price.
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August 14, 2020, 11:05:03 AM

Not my 'free' Dash, which of course is not free Dash but simply Return on Investment.

It's free if it's obtained at a 100% profit margin.


If it was free, anyone could get it. Since its tied to a 1000 Dash collateral condition, it is not free.

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August 14, 2020, 11:06:43 AM


If it was free, anyone could get it. Since its tied to a 1000 Dash collateral condition, it is not free.

You should get a job with a central bank. With your propensity for double accounting you're eminently qualified.
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August 14, 2020, 11:11:38 AM


If it was free, anyone could get it. Since its tied to a 1000 Dash collateral condition, it is not free.

You should get a job with a central bank. With your propensity for double accounting you're eminently qualified.

That is disappointing. I was hoping on a somewhat more thoughtful reply. I guess when people ran out of counterarguments,
they come up with remarks like that.

Well, it was nice chatting with you toknormal. Take care.


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August 14, 2020, 11:18:06 AM
Last edit: August 14, 2020, 12:03:43 PM by toknormal


That is disappointing. I was hoping on a somewhat more thoughtful reply.

The "thoughtful reply" is one that I've laboured add nauseum and that you regularly complain about being over-expressed.

That is that the capital value of your node is not a countable "cost" when it comes to measuring margin over cost of the masternode reward. Also, your remark on "return on investment" is moot because Dash is not a stable coin. The market (not Dash protocol) therefore has the last say on what the ROI is because it depends on the capital value (a.k.a. marketcap) of Dash. So if the market marks us down in that respect - your ROI is zip or negative.

So it all comes back to marketcap, even for Masternode ROI.

Furthermore, as far as our "store of value" performance goes it comes back to competitiveness (of our marketcap) with other mined crypto. If we're not competitive then it follows that our store of value performance is deficient in relative terms. The market will prefer a fully mined coin. So marketcap and ranking DO matter, even by the standards Dash sets itself in terms of ROI, efficiency etc.
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August 14, 2020, 12:10:57 PM
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Not my 'free' Dash, which of course is not free Dash but simply Return on Investment.

It's free if it's obtained at a 100% profit margin.


If it was free, anyone could get it. Since its tied to a 1000 Dash collateral condition, it is not free.

Is it free to own shares in a company and receive a dividend?

Is it free to own $ 100,000 in a node, running 24 hours a day 365 days a year?

Is it free to keep the money standing there and assuming an opportunity cost in other businesses?

Masternodes serve a role and are paid for it.

Should other people's use  your computer to store data or run programs be free?

The Dash ecosystem is healthy, there is no problem with nodes or mining.

We can say that Dash remains bearish for not running smart contracts, or for not being an oracle, or for not being immersed in IOT, or for not being a DEFI ... but here and now Dash's problem is not even the miners nor the master nodes.
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August 14, 2020, 12:15:37 PM
Last edit: August 14, 2020, 01:43:21 PM by toknormal

Masternodes serve a role and are paid for it.

That isn't in dispute.

The question is what value the market puts on that role. Because, since we are not a stablecoin, the market gets to decide what the "pay" is going to be, not Dash. If the market isn't receiving any added value for that "role" (because none of the masternode revenue isn't invested in any service provision activity) then expect it to react accordingly. Capital flows into Bitcoin, Litecoin, Bitcoin Cash, Monero, Ethereum instead since at least with those blockchains the market gets more mined coin for its investment. (In fact it gets the entire supply).

******************************************************
Here's where you're all missing the point.

Monetary reserves don't pay dividends on a "de-facto" basis. If you buy property, it won't earn any revenue unless you actively DO something with it that the market values to the extent that it pays you additional for the service. Just owning the property doesn't give you a return or doesn't "entitle" you to an ROI. Same with bank deposits (at least back in the days when there was something of an interest rate). The bank can't afford to pay you interest just because you've got you money in there, it has to actually PUT your money to work to earn it. Same with real estate - you buy  it and leave it empty, no revenue will accrue. If no revenue accrues, no capital value will accrue either (in a business sense). Buy equity - you don't get a "return" unless the company is actually doing something in terms of revenue generation.

So owning 1000 Dash and setting up a masternode doesn't entitle anyone to an ROI. Sure, we can program the protocol to add more Dash to our balance. You know what the market's gonna do then ?Trash the price of Dash to make sure there's no REAL ROI, because thats what free markets do unless you give them something for their money.

Mining gives markets something for their money - a share of the blockchain more or less in proportion the market's share in the cost of mining it. So mining is not a problem in this respect, 2+2=4 and revenue flows are accounted for without recourse to revaluation of marketcap. Mining supply "hitting the market" is not a problem because the demand is there (endorsed by competitive mining levels) and the market is just being charged for something it already asked for.

Masternode revenues on the other hand ARE a problem in this respect. (If we want them to be worth anything that is). The idea of the masternode revenue is to ENHANCE the capital value of the coin, not erode it. It was envisaged that the masternode network would provide for a higher performance and more mobile MINED asset than bitcoin's. It was also envisaged that that would come at a cost. Fair enough so it was justified to divert an appropriate portion of the mining supply to masternodes to fund this. EVEN to the extent that masternodes might make a little bit of a profit after costs (like miners often do).

But 60% of the entire mined supply Huh Mostly at near 100% margin ?

We are in fairytale land if we think this is going to make us competitive. It is a massive cost to pass on to the market beyond mining and that's why, far from catapaulting us ahead of our 100% mined competitors, it's catapulted THEM ahead of US and this problem is only going to get more chronic and acute the larger the masternode network gets unless we address it appropriately.
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August 14, 2020, 01:01:04 PM

How exactly did you come to that conclusion? Where is the evidence qwizzie is a defender of money scams? Where is the evidence he gets paid?


As i thought, all talk but no evidence to support his talks.
This forum is full of people like that.
You're a fucking defender of money scams. How much do you get paid?
No, he just sits there every day and praises this shit. Why are you trying to make people foolish?
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August 14, 2020, 01:53:01 PM
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Dash is an important component of truly decentralized finance or as the eth guys call it defi. Its fixed low supply and wide adoption makes it the perfect settlement layer. I guarantee there are people working on dash as settlement layer for smart contracts, and its speed and liquidity make it awesome, it really is better than bitcoin in all ways outside of fame.

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August 14, 2020, 02:38:32 PM

Anypay and Dash Developers Enable BIP70 on Dash Wallets

Steven Zeiler and Anypay have wanted to implement the payment protocol on the Dash network for a long time. Now this vision has come to be realized, thanks to a collaboration between Anypay and Dash Core developers. What is BIP70, and what does the upgrade mean for the Dash network? Find out on this episode of CATV.



Thanks for watching!

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August 14, 2020, 03:08:56 PM

DASH yobit volume fishy as fuck who masks all the volume on yobit? :-D bwaaahahahrrr

===>

https://yobit.net/en/trade/DASH/BTC

#makebitcointalkgreatagain-_-*my posts are strictly for entertainment purposes only. It should not be regarded as investment/trading advice.*advocate to promote sharing and free software for the bitcoin community* #EFF #FSF ===> START WITH NOTHING AND BUILD IT INTO SOMETHING!
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August 14, 2020, 03:33:59 PM

DASH yobit volume fishy as fuck who masks all the volume on yobit? :-D bwaaahahahrrr

===>

https://yobit.net/en/trade/DASH/BTC

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/dash/markets/


Thats some funny shit  Grin
Coinmarketcap seems to have a lot of confidence in their stated Dash volume on Yobit ($22,488,879).



Question is : do we have a lot of confidence in coinmarketcap ?  Undecided

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August 14, 2020, 03:52:06 PM

Question is : do we have a lot of confidence in coinmarketcap ?  Undecided
Ratings from any sites are not trusted because they can bias ratings to the direction they want it to be. Their ratings can be incorrect from their bugs, or from paid-ratings, sponsored-ratings.

Confidence on coinmarketcap? I don't have it because the website listed many scam coins in 2017 and 2018. Paid them money, surpass their submission verification (don't know what they did the days) and be listed.

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August 15, 2020, 12:15:56 AM

I've previously stated that there does seem to be some merit to toknormal's argument however I also think he's overestimating its importance.

The majority of the value in any coin/token is derived from pure speculation and with good reason. Any crypto that achieves or even comes close to mass adoption will make holders multi-millionaires at the very least...

Saying there's real world value to mining I'm not sure is 100% true. It's somewhat a mirage. It's a system of busy work to create an arm's race to get rewards and fees. But there's nothing inherently valuable with mining beyond protecting it from 51% attacks. The same rewards get generated regardless of the hash rate. In most POW coins as long as the hash rate is sufficiently high enough that one group can't get 51% of the hash rate to double spend (and violate other rules) then the chain is considered secure. But we even see with ETC that despite the most recent 51%/double spend attack, the price already recovered (perhaps the speculation here is that once ETH goes POS, ETC will be the top Ethash chain).

For every POW chain that's considered more competitive than DASH by toknormal (a total of 8?) there are 100's of other POW coins that are not as competitive, dying or already dead.

Now, let's try to measure 'competitiveness' by taking snapshots of the marketcap from the beginning of the year until now (note: didn't include ADA as I don't think this is POW)

                 BTCETHBCHBSVLTCXMRDASHZCASHETC
Jan 5, 2020$134,469,548,249$14,875,569,430$4,080,035,773$2,003,156,469$2,778,396,525$940,587,960$476,326,526$260,715,783$570,853,943
Aug 14, 2020$217,415,449,393 $49,233,254,181 $5,444,846,261 $3,929,592,983 $3,711,626,608 $1,615,209,788 $891,430,846 $834,949,487 $802,247,004
                 (+161%)(+331%)(+133%)(+196%)(+133%)(+172%)(+187%)(+320%)(+141%)

As you can see DASH is #4 among this group of 9 POW coins for YTD gains, so not the most competitive, but not the least either.

I restate that I believe the market cycle has more to do with a coins 'competiveness' rather than toknormal's theory of masternodes getting too much.

That said, I won't completely discount that there might be something there to look at.

Perhaps trustless masternode shares could be implemented and the collateral be increased maybe from 1000 DASH to 1200 DASH to keep ROI high enough and not have too many masternodes.

Or perhaps instead of trustless masternodes, interest savings could be implemented where maybe people can 'lock up' loose DASH to get 2% or so. Some restrictions like, only up to 200 loose DASH can be locked up per masternode and this 2% would have to come from the masternode reward.

Another thing to look at is the reality that people like to own whole things. People might think BTC is too expensive and since they can't have a whole one will buy some altcoins instead. While it might be a good feature that DASH is scarce and has low coin count, this is also the same thing that can lead to centralization and price volatility. People are ecstatic with the huge upswings in price of DASH during a bull market but then panic with the huge price dumps during a bear market. I think something like LTC and XMR are less volatile simply because there are more coins and likely more individual holders. We see stock splits happen when individual shares become too expensive. It might make sense at some point to consider a 'coin split' where 1 old DASH is exchanged for 10 new DASH. Where 1 old DASH was too expensive for someone to buy any before, they might go ahead and buy 5 new DASH. Overall the price goes up with this psychological trick.

Anyways, just throwing ideas out there. Perhaps, toknormal, one or more of these forms the beginnings of a solution you can propose to the DAO to address the problems you see.
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August 15, 2020, 01:26:36 AM

I've previously stated that there does seem to be some merit to toknormal's argument however I also think he's overestimating its importance.

The majority of the value in any coin/token is derived from pure speculation and with good reason. Any crypto that achieves or even comes close to mass adoption will make holders multi-millionaires at the very least...

Saying there's real world value to mining I'm not sure is 100% true. It's somewhat a mirage. It's a system of busy work to create an arm's race to get rewards and fees. But there's nothing inherently valuable with mining beyond protecting it from 51% attacks. The same rewards get generated regardless of the hash rate. In most POW coins as long as the hash rate is sufficiently high enough that one group can't get 51% of the hash rate to double spend (and violate other rules) then the chain is considered secure. But we even see with ETC that despite the most recent 51%/double spend attack, the price already recovered (perhaps the speculation here is that once ETH goes POS, ETC will be the top Ethash chain).

For every POW chain that's considered more competitive than DASH by toknormal (a total of 8?) there are 100's of other POW coins that are not as competitive, dying or already dead.

Now, let's try to measure 'competitiveness' by taking snapshots of the marketcap from the beginning of the year until now (note: didn't include ADA as I don't think this is POW)

                 BTCETHBCHBSVLTCXMRDASHZCASHETC
Jan 5, 2020$134,469,548,249$14,875,569,430$4,080,035,773$2,003,156,469$2,778,396,525$940,587,960$476,326,526$260,715,783$570,853,943
Aug 14, 2020$217,415,449,393 $49,233,254,181 $5,444,846,261 $3,929,592,983 $3,711,626,608 $1,615,209,788 $891,430,846 $834,949,487 $802,247,004
                 (+161%)(+331%)(+133%)(+196%)(+133%)(+172%)(+187%)(+320%)(+141%)

As you can see DASH is #4 among this group of 9 POW coins for YTD gains, so not the most competitive, but not the least either.

I restate that I believe the market cycle has more to do with a coins 'competiveness' rather than toknormal's theory of masternodes getting too much.

That said, I won't completely discount that there might be something there to look at.

Perhaps trustless masternode shares could be implemented and the collateral be increased maybe from 1000 DASH to 1200 DASH to keep ROI high enough and not have too many masternodes.

Or perhaps instead of trustless masternodes, interest savings could be implemented where maybe people can 'lock up' loose DASH to get 2% or so. Some restrictions like, only up to 200 loose DASH can be locked up per masternode and this 2% would have to come from the masternode reward.

Another thing to look at is the reality that people like to own whole things. People might think BTC is too expensive and since they can't have a whole one will buy some altcoins instead. While it might be a good feature that DASH is scarce and has low coin count, this is also the same thing that can lead to centralization and price volatility. People are ecstatic with the huge upswings in price of DASH during a bull market but then panic with the huge price dumps during a bear market. I think something like LTC and XMR are less volatile simply because there are more coins and likely more individual holders. We see stock splits happen when individual shares become too expensive. It might make sense at some point to consider a 'coin split' where 1 old DASH is exchanged for 10 new DASH. Where 1 old DASH was too expensive for someone to buy any before, they might go ahead and buy 5 new DASH. Overall the price goes up with this psychological trick.

Anyways, just throwing ideas out there. Perhaps, toknormal, one or more of these forms the beginnings of a solution you can propose to the DAO to address the problems you see.


Dash is already divisible. high price hasnt stopped bitcoin adoption

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August 15, 2020, 04:52:24 AM


Dash is already divisible. high price hasnt stopped bitcoin adoption

Ok, but I'm not suggesting otherwise...

I'm talking about something called Natural Number Bias... some reason we prefer whole numbers. Also, in other psychology, a subconscious assumption that a bigger number is better value.

So if someone has $5 to invest and just wants to get some crypto, 16 XRP may seem to be better value than 0.052 DASH simply because the number 16 is larger. And how many people actually prefer a small fraction of anything?

Or someone might rank a crypto as better just on it having a higher marketcap...
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