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Author Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency  (Read 9670153 times)
toknormal
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October 27, 2020, 11:23:05 PM
Last edit: October 28, 2020, 12:06:50 AM by toknormal


So we're headed into exchange rate territory with BTC that has not been seen since the dawn of Dash. May I suggest a remedy.

We have nearly half of all our new blocks in reserve = dry powder. They don't get used for anything other than to pay masternodes for doing nothing and the new investors in Dash never see that value because it goes straight to paying the cost of holiday cruises (metaphorically speaking of course Wink ). Even masternodes themselves don't see that value because the cryptocurrency exchange markets simply de-capitalise us as they see fit, so nobody is winning.

We could open up that part of the supply to competitive mining and massively raise the cost base of those blocks. That in turn would raise the tradeable price on the open market and ideally arrest the catastrophic loss of capital value in the chain that we're currently seeing (which I think is unjustified under any economic terms but I can see why the market is doing it. It is trying to tell us something and maybe we should listen).

We may have to consider that we made the wrong decision last year with the protocol change and sent it in the wrong direction. Luckily Dash has a governance mechanism and wrong decisions can be reviewed after a reasonably probationary period, possibly taking a broader range of criteria into account than were considered at the time.

Don't worry about loss of nodes. BTC nodes don't have the chance to make any profit at all. They can't even make a business out of running a node. There will always be takers for a commercially competitive margin no matter what the price of Dash.



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qwizzie
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October 28, 2020, 12:19:21 AM

Well, thats certainly more pics. Lets see if it helps you with expanding your cult club. Having only two members must be such a lonely feeling.

The fastest way to lose money, is to listen to people that present their personal assumptions as facts
Learn from the past, set detailed and vivid goals for the future and live in the only moment of time over which you have any control : now
toknormal
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October 28, 2020, 12:35:33 AM
Last edit: October 28, 2020, 05:41:13 PM by toknormal


Lets see if it helps you with expanding your cult club.

Indeed. I should of course join the long queue of recruits for your's.

But allow me to hold my breath for a moment more...

Having mining and masternode margins set at anything other than parity is insane IMO and will never allow Dash's capital value to rise.

We can set the Dash protocol reward ratio at whatever we like but it doesn't enable us to rig markets. If we configure our blockchain to issue one coin at one cost base and another at a totally different cost base, all the market will do is act to reconcile those two cost bases. Now ask yourself, what recourse does the market have to do that ?

Only one: the coin price.

Which means that the ENTIRE CHAIN has to be devalued to reconcile masternode margins with mining margins. That is what free markets do. It's why they exist - to eradicate uneconomic profits that benefit neither investors nor consumers nor owners. We have it in our capacity to address this - just use the protocol to reconcile the margins at the point of production. That way the market can comfortably capitalise us at any price. Not only that: we don't lose any of our utility advantage. Margin parity makes Dash monetarily scaleable.

Margin disparity makes us UNscalable (monetarily). So we crash down as soon as the two get out of sync.

Why can't you folks see this simple fact and just work with the market to make ourselves more competitive ?
Dahaa
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October 28, 2020, 02:43:08 AM

For 1 eth you can buy almost 6 dashes. Look at the dash / eth diagram to see a 10x drop. dash has become useless junk, confess and don't lie to people! Angry
qwizzie
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October 28, 2020, 06:55:54 AM
Last edit: October 28, 2020, 07:22:56 AM by qwizzie
Merited by aleix (1)


Why can't you people see this simple fact and just work with the market to make ourselves more competitive ? How much pain do you need to take ?


Well that is a very nice and almost emotional ending of yet another attempt of toknormal of trying to brainwash this forum through repetition.
Lets focus on the word 'fact' for a moment, what is a fact precisely ?



Now lets focus on another word, often confused for fact but is in fact something totally different : assumption
I will try to proof my claim it is in fact totally different, by also showing the definition of the word 'assumption', so both 'fact' and 'assumption'
can be compared directly to each other and the difference becomes visible.



In the context at which toknormal misuse the word 'fact', we can assume the 1st definition of assumption is applicable (a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof.)
'they made certain assumptions about the market'. That does remind me of someone  Roll Eyes

Keep the difference between fact and assumption in mind when reading on the internet ! When someone claims something to be a fact, is that person providing solid proof / hard evidence or
is that person merely providing an assumption and present that as a fact ?


The fastest way to lose money, is to listen to people that present their personal assumptions as facts
Learn from the past, set detailed and vivid goals for the future and live in the only moment of time over which you have any control : now
toknormal
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October 28, 2020, 08:19:25 AM


Good one because grammatical indulgences is all you've got left to offer our investors.

Shame it's just this thread you can police for "wrongthink" and not the market itself. If you could I'm sure you would. I'd stick to the #pumpIsComing line if I were you.
qwizzie
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October 28, 2020, 08:37:14 AM
Last edit: October 28, 2020, 08:47:47 AM by qwizzie


Good one because grammatical indulgences is all you've got left to offer our investors.

Shame it's just this thread you can police for "wrongthink" and not the market itself. If you could I'm sure you would. I'd stick to the #pumpIsComing line if I were you.


I don't pretend to know what the market thinks, likes or values. I know some who do, and they not even base it on facts. They just base it on assumptions, personal opinions and market theory.
Which is fine if those assumptions, personal opinions and market theory, were not also presented as facts.

The fastest way to lose money, is to listen to people that present their personal assumptions as facts
Learn from the past, set detailed and vivid goals for the future and live in the only moment of time over which you have any control : now
toknormal
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October 28, 2020, 08:49:41 AM


Which is fine if those assumptions, personal opinions and market theory, were not presented as facts.

I think you'll find that the idea that markets act to eliminate non-performing profit margins is a fairly well established "fact". It's known as the theory of perfect competition and is intuitive to most people.

If you want to make a case for Dash being an exception that benefits from the cited "imperfect competition" in that link, then feel free. I hope it's more inspiring than your grammatical offerings.
qwizzie
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October 28, 2020, 08:54:32 AM
Last edit: October 28, 2020, 09:14:55 AM by qwizzie

With Bitcoin price rising lately, lets take a look at the Altcoins price volatility today :


Source : messari.io

My my, volatile indeed on the change vs BTC. Dash seems to be less volatile today in comparison to certain other Altcoins . In a few days i will make a month to month comparison, i have a suspicious feeling
that negative price performance has increased a lot for certain Altcoins. Stay tuned...

The fastest way to lose money, is to listen to people that present their personal assumptions as facts
Learn from the past, set detailed and vivid goals for the future and live in the only moment of time over which you have any control : now
Dahaa
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October 28, 2020, 05:02:19 PM

And who from this list exceeded the minimum value for btc?
With Bitcoin price rising lately, lets take a look at the Altcoins price volatility today :

https://i.imgur.com/ds0OwCk.jpg
Source : messari.io

My my, volatile indeed on the change vs BTC. Dash seems to be less volatile today in comparison to certain other Altcoins . In a few days i will make a month to month comparison, i have a suspicious feeling
that negative price performance has increased a lot for certain Altcoins. Stay tuned...

afbitcoins
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October 28, 2020, 06:14:48 PM
Last edit: October 28, 2020, 06:47:08 PM by afbitcoins
Merited by WastedLTC (4)

Qwizzie over the years I've had a lot of respect for you, I recognise you provide a very useful service in the dash ecosystem,. Information you share is useful, you are always friendly and helpful to newcomers. The way you have fought trolling on this very thread over the years is also commendable. I can forgive your perma bull outlook. However I feel I have to point in the debate with toknormal about the reward allocation, it comes across like you think you are fighting a troll. But you are not. This conversation with toknormal is a debate about economics of Dash between people who on all sides want dash to succeed and are invested in Dash. Therefore I would prefer if you would stop attacking personality, accusing of being a cult, calling up on grammer, and things like that, I suggest either debate on the same terms you are presented or don't debate and please don't fall back to troll fighting tactics against your fellows.

To toknormal i would suggest this is looking like a lost cause, particularly on this thread. Would you consider going back to discord where your arguments meet a wider audience? (I actually do not believe the dash masternode community is in any way ready to accept these ideas yet sadly)

I  agree with the idea that masternode rewards do not support the price the way mining rewards do. It would be nice to see real, heavyweight debate on this matter.  However I also acknowledge that speculation can dwarf those effects at times, masking them in effect (though not forever). While the masternode network was growing this effect was hidden. Also during the last speculative bubble, also hidden. Dash went to the moon based on being an alternative to bitcoin which was struggling to scale and grappling high fees and facing the bitcoin cash hardfork. Dash was one of the main beneficiaries of this as a hedge against the fork and a project which could scale. The heady days of that bubble are long gone. The draining effect of masternode rewards are not and also not hidden anymore if you care to look. As a dash community we have to seriously consider this idea. We can't rely on an ever growing masternode network to boost the price (which seems to be Ryan Taylor's main hope) to recall days gone past when there was lots more room to grow it. Perhaps there is an unforseen set of circumstances that will once again make dash flavour of the month and another big speculative bubble looms somewhere unseen on the horizon ready to temporarily hides the drain of value from masternode rewards being set too high. The drain of value, wether obscured or not is a constant negative effect on price. Assumption ;-)

Peace out
toknormal
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October 28, 2020, 07:56:45 PM
Last edit: October 28, 2020, 08:08:10 PM by toknormal


To toknormal i would suggest this is looking like a lost cause, particularly on this thread. Would you consider going back to discord where your arguments meet a wider audience? (I actually do not believe the dash masternode community is in any way ready to accept these ideas yet sadly)

I think they'll have to face it sooner or later. The current policy contradicts itself all over the place. For example look at this...

...
Best solution for Dash without rocking the boat too much (meaning without going full Proof of Stake or without messing with our emission rate schedule directly) :
Improve Dash Store of Value, by adjusting the blockrewards allocation split where more of blockrewards go to masternodes (+9%) and less go to miners (-9%)...

The rational behind this is that this will give an incentive for investors to buy more Dash collateral (1000 Dash) to setup new masternodes, which will then reduce the circulating supply as more and more Dash collateral is parked on a cold wallet address / hardware wallet address somewhere long term. Once the blockreward reallocation has been fully processed in 4 or 5 years, we will have less a problem with our
circulating supply.

It's all about how the cake is sliced and stopping coins from hitting exchanges. There is not a single mention of how the chain gets capitalised in the first place. It's assumed. Also, think for a moment about what all this liquidity traffic marshalling ultimately amounts to....an attempt to synthesise scarcity !

So why not just admit it, do it properly and build scarcity right into each block the way everyone else does it ? How does bitcoin get capitalised ? Investors pay miners, miners pay electricity companies and they mediate competition for each block. The more competition there is, the higher the block price. End of story. If you leave 6 of every ten of your blocks out of this race then guess what the market's going to do to your price ?

There are so many signals that this is the wrong policy IMO - inconsistencies in reasoning that don't square or are arbitrary. For example we say we don't need the hashrate, then we say we do need it to be ahead of "certain" competitors. We say we want to reduce circulating supply - so does that mean that high trading volumes are suddenly a bearish sign for Dash when they're generally considered bullish for everyone else ? We say we want to "retain" value in the network by paying less to electricity companies, but then we just pay it to holiday cruise operators instead (metaphorically speaking). We say that new masternodes will hoover up new supply, but masternodes get traded and churn just as the rest of the supply does. So the collateral is not "locked up" it's circulating even though the aggregate nodecount may be static.

We've now given up all gains against bitcoin for the entire year. Support is now resistance. Additionally we seem to be decoupling and are not getting any pumps when bitcoin pumps. The 1-week OBV is only widening to the downside.

A radical review of the reward ratio is needed IMO, one that goes beyond mere orderbook aversion and addresses how to get capital value INTO the chain at a very basic level instead of taking even more out of it. My view is of course that opening up the rest of the blocks to competitive mining would be massively bullish in this respect and arrest the descent, but that's just my view obviously. It needs the community to see it that way for there to be any relevance so there's an argument to be won.

Discord is good for a laugh & chart watching but I've served my time on there. I think this discussion should be exposed as much as possible to the wider market because that's who we need to co-operate if we want to be successful and competitively buoyant again.
afbitcoins
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October 28, 2020, 08:45:47 PM

Dash versus bitcoin is at a new low not seen since 2014, 6 years ago.

chart

This is very worrying and does nothing to support the 'economic improvements' idea voted by the masternode community.

Heres a closer look

chart

Dash needs to rally strongly and get back above that red trendline.

I don't take any pleasure in this but its what I've been saying for ages. Dash is not buoyant, losing places in the market cap ranking. It only supports the idea that the masternode rewards are crippling the Dash store of value
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October 28, 2020, 10:58:08 PM
Merited by qwizzie (5)

Therefore I would prefer if you would stop attacking personality, accusing of being a cult, calling up on grammer, and things like that, I suggest either debate on the same terms you are presented or don't debate and please don't fall back to troll fighting tactics against your fellows.

Hey, I know this was addressed to qwizzie but I feel I need to just say that I tried debating with toknormal. And it became clear it was pointless. My arguments were largely dismissed without any response and the few points that were commented on were often twisted out of context or just used to regurgitate the same tired old points over again. That's why he comes across as being part of a cult or a bit trollish.

Stop stressing on the price so much. If what toknormal is saying is so true then it's been in motion for over 5 years now. Let it play out. Investment in any crypto is risky and you should know that.

While it's very worrying that DASH keeps making new lows against BTC, it's not alone. It's still in a downward channel against BTC since early 2017. Take some comfort that $67 still remains strong support and that a small pump to $78 would make things seem much brighter.

And yes, certain alts like ETH and XMR are in a bull market and doing relatively well. Guess you should have invested a little there and not keep all your eggs in one basket.

I'm still bullish on Dash long term. I still think the features it has right now are better than other cryptos and Dash Platform and the DashPay wallet can bring a whole lot of new excitement back to Dash.

If you are a developer or know any, take a look or get them to take a look at what can be built on top of Dash Platform.
qwizzie
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October 29, 2020, 07:24:07 AM
Last edit: October 29, 2020, 09:02:36 AM by qwizzie

Therefore I would prefer if you would stop attacking personality, accusing of being a cult, calling up on grammer, and things like that, I suggest either debate on the same terms you are presented or don't debate and please don't fall back to troll fighting tactics against your fellows.

This is not a grammar issue that i am pointing out, this is toknormal constantly and intentionally presenting his market assumptions, market theory and market opinion as facts.
Constantly pushing his market assumptions, market theory and market opinion in pretty much every post he makes in here, in what looks to me like a large and ongoing campaign to seek support
to split off (fork) a part of the Dash community. If that ever happens it will be a Dash community split / fork, based on toknormal's market assumptions, market theory and market opinion, not on facts.


Fork it.

I think DCG should just fork the code. One at 30% mining reward and the other at 70%. Then let the miners & market discover which priority is more valuable. It would be an amazing experiment and worthwhile because it would empirically prove one or other priority as viable with market endorsement.

Which is something i will always fight against, because i don't think that is in the best interest of Dash.

I suspect the reason toknormal has been pushing his market assumptions, market theory and market opinion in pretty much every post he makes in here for the last three months, is because
he realized that Dash Core Group will never fork the code like that. So he is seeking support elsewhere. Unfortunately that elsewhere seems to be in here.

Also i would like to remind you that toknormal has been constantly attacking masternode operators in general these last three months (even though he is a masternode operator himself), on a very very low level.
Most likely to advance his own campaign.    

The fastest way to lose money, is to listen to people that present their personal assumptions as facts
Learn from the past, set detailed and vivid goals for the future and live in the only moment of time over which you have any control : now
toknormal
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October 29, 2020, 09:43:00 AM
Last edit: October 29, 2020, 10:15:55 AM by toknormal


Also i would like to remind you that toknormal has been constantly attacking masternode operators in general these last three months (even though he is a masternode operator himself), on a very very low level.
Most likely to advance his own campaign.    

Don't over-dramatise.

I'm drawing the community's attention to the fact that it's trying to have its cake and eat it by continually drawing revenue from a finite capital asset by running uneconomic margins that are not re-invested.

A miner cannot pull a coin out of the chain without investing an equivalent amount of scarcity value INTO the chain.

A masternode can.

The chain therefore loses capital value on a chronic basis.

Like driving with the brakes on.

#notRocketScience
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October 29, 2020, 10:21:23 AM


Also i would like to remind you that toknormal has been constantly attacking masternode operators in general these last three months (even though he is a masternode operator himself), on a very very low level.
Most likely to advance his own campaign.    

Don't over-dramatise.

Am i over-dramatizing ? Lets take a look at some of your quotes :

Quote
They are eating the capital value of the chain like a starving animal that starts to consume its own flesh to survive.

Quote
I realise that masternode holders want holiday cruises, but f*k'm

Quote
They all want out on the next pump.
No worries. I'll be joining them

Quote
Use MN rewards as bottomless well of bribery payments in exchange for hodling, and it'll do the exact opposite.

Quote
Demise as a competitive crypto asset when compared with its 100% mined contemporaries.

Quote
Sometimes I don't think Dash investors realise what they bought or how to protect it. If you wanted to invest in utility (rather than a mobile, versatile commodity) you should have bought Mastercard shares, or some other type of blockchain security who's protocol is designed to host entire nation's worth of debt securities.

Quote
Stock buyback economics.
Let the masternodes "suck" the Dash off the market.

Quote
Lets get Dash back to an inspiring ideal rather than "how much free money can I get from my masternode", meanwhile the market is at liberty to simply trash that "free money" back to the dark ages in Satoshi or $USD value as it sees fit.

Pretty low level to me and all focused on advancing your own campaign, at the looks of it.

The fastest way to lose money, is to listen to people that present their personal assumptions as facts
Learn from the past, set detailed and vivid goals for the future and live in the only moment of time over which you have any control : now
toknormal
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October 29, 2020, 10:42:11 AM
Last edit: October 29, 2020, 10:57:25 AM by toknormal


I would remind you, despite your continual attempts to evade the central argument...

A miner cannot pull a coin out of the chain without investing an equivalent amount of scarcity value back INTO the chain.

A masternode can.

The chain therefore loses capital value on a chronic basis.

Like driving with the brakes on.

#notRocketScience
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October 29, 2020, 10:46:59 AM
Last edit: October 29, 2020, 11:55:41 AM by qwizzie

Perfect example of toknormal advancing his campaign of promoting his market assumptions, market theory and market opinion in every post and ignoring posts about
his personal low level attacks on masternode operators (even though he is a masternode operator himself, so in a way he is also attacking himself).

This of course makes discussion impossible, all it does is make his posts repetitive and of little added value.



Dash Core Group Q3 Quarterly Call - 29.10.2020
Source : https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/dash-core-group-q3-quarterly-call-29-10-2020.50832/#post-223933

*** Will be a livestream ***

Time : 16:00 UTC (in about 5 hours from now)

If you are new to Dash, this will be a good opportunity to get up to date with Dash. See where Dash development is focused, what Dash strategy is and get a clear picture
of the financials of Dash Core Group. I find these quarterly calls informative and interesting to watch.

Miners increasingly signal support for v0.16.0.1


Source : http://178.254.23.111/~pub/Dash/Dash_Info.html (V16.0 Adoption)

Note : this is still subject to heavy fluctuations, but looks very promising.

Goal currently is reaching 79.22% of the mined blocks signalling readiness for v0.16.0.1 after which two additional 7 days time windows
start (one after the other) to both lock-in the blockreward allocation change and to activate it.

Masternodes updated to latest version 0.16.0.1 also (slowly) increasing


Source : https://www.dashninja.pl/deterministic-masternodes.html

Goal is reaching 80% of masternodes on v0.16.0.1 after which a time window of 7 days is given to those masternode operators that have not updated yet, to do so.
After those 7 days, spork 21 will be activated and masternodes on older Dash Core versions will start to get PoSe scored and ultimately PoSe banned from the network. 

The fastest way to lose money, is to listen to people that present their personal assumptions as facts
Learn from the past, set detailed and vivid goals for the future and live in the only moment of time over which you have any control : now
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October 29, 2020, 02:11:36 PM
Last edit: October 29, 2020, 03:03:25 PM by toknormal


Miners increasingly signal support for v0.16.0.1

...because they're the largest single group of masternode owners since it allows them to mine at far lower cost than would be possible in other chains ? which would explain why:

1. Dash keeps accumulating hashpower in spite of reduced mining incentive
2. loss of capital/scarcity value from the chain (since only 4 blocks of 10 are effectively exposed to that hashpower)

Even if this weren't the case it would be only a matter of time till it was because it's a business model that Dash protocol supports. This "gaming" of the reward ratio due to the fact that the MN coins emerge into the hands of their holders with a zero cost base and so are able to subsidise uneconomic mining from the capital value of the chain. (Masternodes are just mining with a zero cost base).

The cost is therefore paid by regular holders through capital loss. IMO we need to plug this leakage by radically restoring the (#tightShip) mining reward and eliminating the (#cruiseShip) uneconomic masternode rewards.

So the answer is simple:

#nodesAreNotACharity
#setMarginsAtParity


Then capital is retained, the protocol cannot be gamed and the chain becomes investible again.
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