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Author Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency  (Read 9722355 times)
Cryptosis
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October 20, 2014, 01:34:15 PM
 #65781

If not enough coins is available for mixing to annonomize coins, couldn't it just use coins that are being sent for other transactions at that time and the coins it borrows for mixing don get charged the darksend fee? Although that would make the transaction time way up for someone who didn't choose to use darksend.

 Or could it be setup almost like staking where wallets that are open earn a fee or simply donate their coins for mixing
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October 20, 2014, 01:40:02 PM
 #65782

A notion just struck me...

When denominating a large chunk that gets submitted, doesn't get enough entries, gets submitted, doesn't get enough entries... This happens hundreds of times before 3 finally show up... Does the failed entry process give anything away? It happens so much you're pretty much guaranteed to have submitted it to every masternode in the network several times before it actually happens, so couldn't just a single rogue node monitor/track large chunks through this process of repeated submissions?

The presubmission phase is where the client just says "hey, I'd like to mix these denominations here", then the masternode broadcasts a message saying it's accepting more clients. If it gets 3 of those "hey, I'd like to mix" messages, it'll tell those users to submit their actual transactions, inputs+outputs. So the system doesn't reveal any information until the actual mixing is about to happen.

Look at the "dsa" and "dsq" message events in main.cpp for more info.

in theory the anonymization with MN's is great, but i practice it is a pain as it seems
to be so hard to find people to annon with !! can not be there a secure way that a certain amount of DRK
are on the MN network (say 5000 DRK) just flying around the network (not belonging to anybody)
waiting to anonymize with somebody ?
that would make the process definately faster and available all the time !?


I was waiting for about 3 or 4 days to anonymise funds for a masternode and have given up for now because I had to unplug the PC. I only got 1 of 8 rounds completed. With adoption there would no doubt be more coins floating around to be anonymised, but can adoption happen if people can't anonymise their coins? There need to be some incentives in place for people to leave their wallets unlocked and available for mixing.

One basic option available now is for those wanting to anonymise funds to offer to pay for others to make funds available. For example, you could offer 1.5 DRK each to two other parties to leave their wallets open for 24 hours. There's no guarantee that you would be able mix your coins with them if there were others trying to do the same, although if there were so many others trying to do the same thing, it probably wouldn't be necessary in the first place. You could offer to pay half at the beginning, half after, or to use the reputation system offered here or on DarkcoinTalk for example. However, this makes DarkSend more expensive and much more of a hassle.

Another option would be two different types of masternodes. The current masternodes could continue to offer the same service and new type of masternode could leave coins available for mixing as well. This would mean leaving a hot wallet on the masternode I imagine, and as a result is more risky for the masternode owner. Consequently, I think you would have to offer some compensation to these masternode owners, whether it be in the form of a higher ratio of the masternode payments or a discount in the coins required to have a masternode. Maybe the MasterMixerNodes could be required to have only 800 DRK and receive payments as per a normal MasterNode. Or perhaps MasterMixerNodes could be required to have 1000 DRK and receive 3/5 of the masternode payements, and regular MasterNodes perhaps only 700 DRK and receive 2/5 of the payments. Although this would probably be quite difficult because of different quantities of the two types of masternodes. Yet another option would be to require the same quantity of coins for both types of masternodes, but to withhold say 20% of masternode payments to be distributed to the MasterMixerNodes for their increased level of risk. Obviously the reward system would need to be looked at very carefully and it would perhaps be a good opportunity to offer some form of masternodes at a discount. After all, 1000 is not a magic number that is a perfect requirement for a masternode, but an arbitrary - but round - number. If masternodes are going to be used for mixing, I suppose IP obfuscation would be necessary.

TLDR:
The problem with a lack of DarkSend participants should be solved by offering incentives to provide a constant supply of coins available for anonymisation, perhaps by offering two tiers of masternodes.
  Thank you
thefrog
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October 20, 2014, 02:09:46 PM
 #65783

What you are basically talking is a Proof of Stake, leaving wallets online and offer coins for mixing.
I thought that the point of having MNs with 1000 DRK 'locked' was mixing and anonymizing.
And that is what they get payed for (20% and rising).
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October 20, 2014, 02:23:57 PM
 #65784

Forget about touching the Masternode's 1000DRK. Not going to happen, ever. Not going to happen to mine, ever, that's for damn sure.

More people just need to click the big Anonymise button, that's all.
oblox
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October 20, 2014, 02:29:20 PM
 #65785

Forget about touching the Masternode's 1000DRK. Not going to happen, ever. Not going to happen to mine, ever, that's for damn sure.

More people just need to click the big Anonymise button, that's all.

Then it seems like the idea of Darksend day is about the only real thing we could do as a community to bolster pairings, however, that doesn't solve lack of pairs on the remainder of the days.
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October 20, 2014, 02:32:56 PM
 #65786

What you are basically talking is a Proof of Stake, leaving wallets online and offer coins for mixing.
I thought that the point of having MNs with 1000 DRK 'locked' was mixing and anonymizing.
And that is what they get payed for (20% and rising).

why not some wallets from the foundation (or a donation fund or something?) that are ready 24/24 and get their costs of anonymizing paid by the people who want to do the process? This way it's not expensive and always ready. Don't know if it's doable though.
thelonecrouton
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October 20, 2014, 02:39:25 PM
 #65787

Forget about touching the Masternode's 1000DRK. Not going to happen, ever. Not going to happen to mine, ever, that's for damn sure.

More people just need to click the big Anonymise button, that's all.

Then it seems like the idea of Darksend day is about the only real thing we could do as a community to bolster pairings, however, that doesn't solve lack of pairs on the remainder of the days.

Dark Friday (or whatever) would be a good start - and it also might get more people into the habit generally. Smiley

Or a couple of scripted wallets managed by The Foundation, constantly anonymising.

If dark markets start accepting DRK then problem solved, people will have more reason to use DS. I'm a bit disappointed that Anonymisation isn't on by default, I think that would have mostly solved the problem too.
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October 20, 2014, 02:50:32 PM
 #65788

Forget about touching the Masternode's 1000DRK. Not going to happen, ever. Not going to happen to mine, ever, that's for damn sure.

More people just need to click the big Anonymise button, that's all.

Then it seems like the idea of Darksend day is about the only real thing we could do as a community to bolster pairings, however, that doesn't solve lack of pairs on the remainder of the days.

Dark Friday (or whatever) would be a good start - and it also might get more people into the habit generally. Smiley

Or a couple of scripted wallets managed by The Foundation, constantly anonymising.

If dark markets start accepting DRK then problem solved, people will have more reason to use DS. I'm a bit disappointed that Anonymisation isn't on by default, I think that would have mostly solved the problem too.

Well it takes fees and most consider compulsory taking of fees as stealing. On by default would have been off-putting to most people. That said, we do need to do SOMETHING.  Basically a Darksend adoption bootstrapping phase of some sort is required.  At this rate we will never get adoption if the main feature of the coin requires you to wait 4 days to see it work.  

My suggestion is a "bounty" mixing fund that Evan (or the foundation) maintains and is filled ever so often by the community. That can then be split into several wallets and left mixing.
TsuyokuNaritai
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October 20, 2014, 02:53:25 PM
 #65789

I suggested a solution to this a while ago, which would cost little, make mixing fast to those that need it & free to those who don't, and be handled automatically by the wallets after the clicking of a checkbox...

Quote
How about an option so that, if someone urgently needs their coins denominated in a hurry, they could offer to pay the fee of the other parties?

This could then be broadcast, and some randomly chosen users that have another checkbox checked to help out in such cases could have their coins mixed with the first user for a round each at no cost to them.

This provides significant benefits:

  • Instant mixing, if you're willing to pay a little extra.
  • Free mixing, if you're willing to wait for people who need instant mixing.
  • Even if you don't need mixing, you can help out the network at no cost to you.

Of course there needs to be some measure in place to prevent the same users being paired too often.

Thoughts?

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October 20, 2014, 02:56:26 PM
 #65790

Quote
Darkcoin has been criticized for its potential to become the favorite cryptocurrency of criminals, terrorists, and even child pornographers. Aren’t you afraid that the association of X-Children with Darkcoin might be a PR suicide for your humanitarian project? Why did you choose the Darkcoin framework instead of something else?

X-Children has nothing to do with Darkcoin besides technical similarities. Sorry, but this question is misleading because associating X-Children to Darkcoin is a serious conceptual and technical mistake, like comparing two cars with the same chassis but entirely different engines. We started with the Darkcoin framework but, for example, the CHILD reward scheme is derived from Fractal. If you download the X-Children wallet, you will see that we don’t use Darksend or similar.

We chose the Darkcoin framework because it’s a solid and reliable X-11 and one of the most mined cryptocoins. Darkcoin permits dramatic energy efficiency improvements compared to the same rigs running on Scrypt – with Darkcoin, the vast majority of GPU miners abandoned Scrypt before ASICs made it obsolete a few months later. X-Children is totally transparent due to the technology of the blockchain, which permits precisely tracing all information recorded in it. That is shown by the fact that the monetary value of this mathematical coin (Bitcoin) is much higher than the US dollar.

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/berlusconi-love-cryptocurrency-save-children-gaza/

Xtrdw361DvoyDhxL5XoeAvTxTPvM4dXuLW
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October 20, 2014, 02:57:35 PM
 #65791

So I'm trying to understand the issue with the darksend. Is the problem basically that people aren't anonymizing the coins in their open wallets?  I am not doing that now, but I could be if it would help. I always have at least 1 wallet with less than 1k in it because it I don't have enough for another masternode yet, and I know i cant be alone in this.

Is there any downside for me leaving my wallet running with anonymization on?
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October 20, 2014, 03:01:15 PM
 #65792

So I'm trying to understand the issue with the darksend. Is the problem basically that people aren't anonymizing the coins in their open wallets?  I am not doing that now, but I could be if it would help. I always have at least 1 wallet with less than 1k in it because it I don't have enough for another masternode yet, and I know i cant be alone in this.

Is there any downside for me leaving my wallet running with anonymization on?

Well... there is a small fee of 0.0125DRK per mixing round.  So the downside is that your balance will decrease even if it is only by very little.  It is up to you to decide if you value helping over the mixing cost. Also, your wallet must be unlocked at all times which posses somewhat of a greater risk compared to leaving your coins offline or even online but encrypted. 
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October 20, 2014, 03:16:40 PM
 #65793

Forget about touching the Masternode's 1000DRK. Not going to happen, ever. Not going to happen to mine, ever, that's for damn sure.

More people just need to click the big Anonymise button, that's all.

Which is why I suggested two types of Masternodes. The standard Masternode, which I'm sure most people would opt for, and the mixer Masternodes which would receive an extra reward for the added risk of leaving the wallet open.

When instant transactions become a reality it will be possible to close wallets after a much shorter period of time of anonymisation. If people don't have any incentive to leave their wallet unlocked and even a disincentive to be constantly anonymising funds (Darksend fees), why would anyone be doing it all the time?

The bot mixers you suggested I think potenitally has merit too if itcould be done it way that doesn't reveal the identity of the non-bot mixer. I suppose they would need to be crowdfunded too.
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October 20, 2014, 03:23:30 PM
 #65794

Forget about touching the Masternode's 1000DRK. Not going to happen, ever. Not going to happen to mine, ever, that's for damn sure.

More people just need to click the big Anonymise button, that's all.

Then it seems like the idea of Darksend day is about the only real thing we could do as a community to bolster pairings, however, that doesn't solve lack of pairs on the remainder of the days.

Dark Friday (or whatever) would be a good start - and it also might get more people into the habit generally. Smiley

Or a couple of scripted wallets managed by The Foundation, constantly anonymising.

If dark markets start accepting DRK then problem solved, people will have more reason to use DS. I'm a bit disappointed that Anonymisation isn't on by default, I think that would have mostly solved the problem too.

Well it takes fees and most consider compulsory taking of fees as stealing. On by default would have been off-putting to most people. That said, we do need to do SOMETHING.  Basically a Darksend adoption bootstrapping phase of some sort is required.  At this rate we will never get adoption if the main feature of the coin requires you to wait 4 days to see it work.  

My suggestion is a "bounty" mixing fund that Evan (or the foundation) maintains and is filled ever so often by the community. That can then be split into several wallets and left mixing.

Totally agree and that sounds like an interesting extra fix, I would throw in for that. I am using Darksend on the main-net for the first time and its very frustrating waiting so long to be paired up... wait didn't someone get an extra 14k Dark recently, could put that to good use. : p
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October 20, 2014, 03:38:47 PM
 #65795

Forget about touching the Masternode's 1000DRK. Not going to happen, ever. Not going to happen to mine, ever, that's for damn sure.

More people just need to click the big Anonymise button, that's all.

Then it seems like the idea of Darksend day is about the only real thing we could do as a community to bolster pairings, however, that doesn't solve lack of pairs on the remainder of the days.

Dark Friday (or whatever) would be a good start - and it also might get more people into the habit generally. Smiley

Or a couple of scripted wallets managed by The Foundation, constantly anonymising.

If dark markets start accepting DRK then problem solved, people will have more reason to use DS. I'm a bit disappointed that Anonymisation isn't on by default, I think that would have mostly solved the problem too.

Well it takes fees and most consider compulsory taking of fees as stealing. On by default would have been off-putting to most people. That said, we do need to do SOMETHING.  Basically a Darksend adoption bootstrapping phase of some sort is required.  At this rate we will never get adoption if the main feature of the coin requires you to wait 4 days to see it work.  

My suggestion is a "bounty" mixing fund that Evan (or the foundation) maintains and is filled ever so often by the community. That can then be split into several wallets and left mixing.

Totally agree and that sounds like an interesting extra fix, I would throw in for that. I am using Darksend on the main-net for the first time and its very frustrating waiting so long to be paired up... wait didn't someone get an extra 14k Dark recently, could put that to good use. : p

He can't use a wallet.  Roll Eyes

It would probably only cost a few DRK a month to have some Foundation mixing wallets going, we should ask The Founders what they think.
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October 20, 2014, 03:40:54 PM
 #65796

Forget about touching the Masternode's 1000DRK. Not going to happen, ever. Not going to happen to mine, ever, that's for damn sure.

More people just need to click the big Anonymise button, that's all.

Then it seems like the idea of Darksend day is about the only real thing we could do as a community to bolster pairings, however, that doesn't solve lack of pairs on the remainder of the days.

Dark Friday (or whatever) would be a good start - and it also might get more people into the habit generally. Smiley

Or a couple of scripted wallets managed by The Foundation, constantly anonymising.

If dark markets start accepting DRK then problem solved, people will have more reason to use DS. I'm a bit disappointed that Anonymisation isn't on by default, I think that would have mostly solved the problem too.

Well it takes fees and most consider compulsory taking of fees as stealing. On by default would have been off-putting to most people. That said, we do need to do SOMETHING.  Basically a Darksend adoption bootstrapping phase of some sort is required.  At this rate we will never get adoption if the main feature of the coin requires you to wait 4 days to see it work.  

My suggestion is a "bounty" mixing fund that Evan (or the foundation) maintains and is filled ever so often by the community. That can then be split into several wallets and left mixing.

Totally agree and that sounds like an interesting extra fix, I would throw in for that. I am using Darksend on the main-net for the first time and its very frustrating waiting so long to be paired up... wait didn't someone get an extra 14k Dark recently, could put that to good use. : p

He can't use a wallet.  Roll Eyes

It would probably only cost a few DRK a month to have some Foundation mixing wallets going, we should ask The Founders what they think.

Depending on how it's implemented it sounds like it could be a little too centralised.

edit: Actally, I suppose you mean just a regular wallet funded by the foundation, mixing when needed. It could work.
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October 20, 2014, 03:48:46 PM
 #65797

edit: Actally, I suppose you mean just a regular wallet funded by the foundation, mixing when needed. It could work.

Cheap, simple, worth a shot... any mixing beats no mixing... and it might help encourage people to start using DS...
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October 20, 2014, 04:09:40 PM
 #65798

Miningpoolhub is about to update! Smiley

edit.... My mistake...they have already done it Smiley

R u ready for enforcment guys???

Friendly Pool Reminders don't sleep Wink

BE SMART, USE DASH ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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October 20, 2014, 04:19:53 PM
 #65799

Forget about touching the Masternode's 1000DRK. Not going to happen, ever. Not going to happen to mine, ever, that's for damn sure.

More people just need to click the big Anonymise button, that's all.

Then it seems like the idea of Darksend day is about the only real thing we could do as a community to bolster pairings, however, that doesn't solve lack of pairs on the remainder of the days.

Dark Friday (or whatever) would be a good start - and it also might get more people into the habit generally. Smiley

Or a couple of scripted wallets managed by The Foundation, constantly anonymising.

If dark markets start accepting DRK then problem solved, people will have more reason to use DS. I'm a bit disappointed that Anonymisation isn't on by default, I think that would have mostly solved the problem too.

Well it takes fees and most consider compulsory taking of fees as stealing. On by default would have been off-putting to most people. That said, we do need to do SOMETHING.  Basically a Darksend adoption bootstrapping phase of some sort is required.  At this rate we will never get adoption if the main feature of the coin requires you to wait 4 days to see it work.  

My suggestion is a "bounty" mixing fund that Evan (or the foundation) maintains and is filled ever so often by the community. That can then be split into several wallets and left mixing.

Totally agree and that sounds like an interesting extra fix, I would throw in for that. I am using Darksend on the main-net for the first time and its very frustrating waiting so long to be paired up... wait didn't someone get an extra 14k Dark recently, could put that to good use. : p

He can't use a wallet.  Roll Eyes

It would probably only cost a few DRK a month to have some Foundation mixing wallets going, we should ask The Founders what they think.

Depending on how it's implemented it sounds like it could be a little too centralised.

edit: Actally, I suppose you mean just a regular wallet funded by the foundation, mixing when needed. It could work.

I am proposing we call it Mixing Mondays.
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October 20, 2014, 04:23:58 PM
 #65800

Miningpoolhub is about to update! Smiley

edit.... My mistake...they have already done it Smiley

R u ready for enforcment guys???

Friendly Pool Reminders don't sleep Wink

I contacted xhash.net a coupple hours ago.

Waiting for response or found block confirmation.

And ready for enforcement  Grin

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