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Author Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency  (Read 9492398 times)
eduffield
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February 02, 2016, 04:43:28 PM



1 Dash = 1 Dash. The price in Dash cannot go up or down. I understand a lot of people want to work in fiat, but if the proposal is good, they believe in Dash, I don't see why they can't accept Dash as payment for services.

It may be limiting in some ways, but I think there will be plenty of people who are willing to work for Dash instead of fiat.

Dash has value, if a proposal would add to the value of Dash, then that is only to the benefit of the proposal originator (and the currency as a whole)



spatula, get real... Try the following experiment. Order a pizza and convince them to pay in Dash... What do you think the outcome will be?

 If we contract outside work, people get payed in whatever terms THEY see fit. If could be dollars, it could be bananas. The Miami BTC conference was tagged in USD, not for us, for everyone.

 If, before hand, they accept Dash, brilliant! The core team gets payed in Dash and no one complains.

 Otherwise we have a conundrum.

Pizza is a terrible example as there would be no reason for the blockchain to fund pizza. It is more likely that the blockchain funds technical projects and marketing projects, both of which there should be people willing to accept Dash as payment and incur any market volatility. If it is an extreme case where the price crashes and they have extensive outstanding debts then they can submit a proposal asking for addtional funds and let the network decide.



Paying in Dash works for a small subculture on the internet, but once we start interacting with the real world, we're going to run into problems. We need to be able to vote on paying a specific contractor for work, then somehow be able to guarantee they will get paid the exact USD value they are owed.

For example, here's some situation which require USD denominated payments:

- Leasing an office building
- Hiring a contractor (painters, etc? )
- Retaining a lawyer

Let's say for example we get a lease on a building, do some legal work and paint the building costing a total of $50000. The price of Dash at the time we did the work was $7, which gave us a budget of $56154 ($7*8022), however at the time of the super block the price fell to $4 ($32088). I think we should denominate in USD in these cases and allow our market to take the risk, our market will benefit from increasing buying power when we're correct and we'll provide a much more stable foundation for building on.

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spatula
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February 02, 2016, 04:46:32 PM


Pizza is a terrible example as there would be no reason for the blockchain to fund pizza. It is more likely that the blockchain funds technical projects and marketing projects, both of which there should be people willing to accept Dash as payment and incur any market volatility. If it is an extreme case where the price crashes and they have extensive outstanding debts then they can submit a proposal asking for addtional funds and let the network decide.



No it's perfect example. You order pizza from your phone, and want to pay with Dash. You send the pizza over and insist in paying with Dash. Not gonna happen. The pizza place has to pay for electricity, employees, bough, tomato, cheese... is USD, not Dash.

 You want to build an underwater nuclear proof full-node to save Dash from holocaust. You win a proposal and want to sub-contract marine engineers, titanium shielding and aluminium foil against aliens. You want to pay in Dash. Not gonna happen, they have a chain down the line they'd need to convert to Fiat.

 Hire an independent web-dev to do his own thing... now THAT I do see happening. An extremely forward thinking tech business? I do see it happening.

 All I am saying is to be realistic about things. Sure I'd love to have my pizza deliveries anonymous, but we must build the foundations for it, not argue why it's not happening.

If all your saying is to be realistic, then why do your examples include the blockchain budget funding pizza, or protection from aliens?

We are talking about proposals for the blockchain budget, to benefit Dash. Hiring an independent web-dev is the most "realistic" thing you listed, and is also the one you concluded would be willing to be paid in Dash.

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February 02, 2016, 04:49:05 PM



1 Dash = 1 Dash. The price in Dash cannot go up or down. I understand a lot of people want to work in fiat, but if the proposal is good, they believe in Dash, I don't see why they can't accept Dash as payment for services.

It may be limiting in some ways, but I think there will be plenty of people who are willing to work for Dash instead of fiat.

Dash has value, if a proposal would add to the value of Dash, then that is only to the benefit of the proposal originator (and the currency as a whole)



spatula, get real... Try the following experiment. Order a pizza and convince them to pay in Dash... What do you think the outcome will be?

 If we contract outside work, people get payed in whatever terms THEY see fit. If could be dollars, it could be bananas. The Miami BTC conference was tagged in USD, not for us, for everyone.

 If, before hand, they accept Dash, brilliant! The core team gets payed in Dash and no one complains.

 Otherwise we have a conundrum.

Pizza is a terrible example as there would be no reason for the blockchain to fund pizza. It is more likely that the blockchain funds technical projects and marketing projects, both of which there should be people willing to accept Dash as payment and incur any market volatility. If it is an extreme case where the price crashes and they have extensive outstanding debts then they can submit a proposal asking for addtional funds and let the network decide.



Paying in Dash works for a small subculture on the internet, but once we start interacting with the real world, we're going to run into problems. We need to be able to vote on paying a specific contractor for work, then somehow be able to guarantee they will get paid the exact USD value they are owed.

For example, here's some situation which require USD denominated payments:

- Leasing an office building
- Hiring a contractor (painters, etc? )
- Retaining a lawyer

Let's say for example we get a lease on a building, do some legal work and paint the building costing a total of $50000. The price of Dash at the time we did the work was $7, which gave us a budget of $56154 ($7*8022), however at the time of the super block the price fell to $4 ($32088). I think we should denominate in USD in these cases and allow our market to take the risk, our market will benefit from increasing buying power when we're correct and we'll provide a much more stable foundation for building on.

I totally agree that we will run into these types of issues, but I also think that it should be the exception, not the rule. If people want to propose a project that can benefit Dash, then (in the vast majority of cases) they should be willing to be paid in Dash.
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February 02, 2016, 04:50:01 PM



1 Dash = 1 Dash. The price in Dash cannot go up or down. I understand a lot of people want to work in fiat, but if the proposal is good, they believe in Dash, I don't see why they can't accept Dash as payment for services.

It may be limiting in some ways, but I think there will be plenty of people who are willing to work for Dash instead of fiat.

Dash has value, if a proposal would add to the value of Dash, then that is only to the benefit of the proposal originator (and the currency as a whole)



spatula, get real... Try the following experiment. Order a pizza and convince them to pay in Dash... What do you think the outcome will be?

 If we contract outside work, people get payed in whatever terms THEY see fit. If could be dollars, it could be bananas. The Miami BTC conference was tagged in USD, not for us, for everyone.

 If, before hand, they accept Dash, brilliant! The core team gets payed in Dash and no one complains.

 Otherwise we have a conundrum.
This too is correct.  In this case... The contract was for covering USD.  

I think the moral of the story is... In all future budgets it should be defined whether the project is pinned to USD/Fiat or DASH/BTC so we can avoid this kind of confusion.

^This. Proposers should probably mention in their proposal what currency they are paying the vendor, and people can evaluate that and let it influence their vote as well.

Dash - Digital Cash
https://www.dash.org/
spatula
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February 02, 2016, 04:57:29 PM



1 Dash = 1 Dash. The price in Dash cannot go up or down. I understand a lot of people want to work in fiat, but if the proposal is good, they believe in Dash, I don't see why they can't accept Dash as payment for services.

It may be limiting in some ways, but I think there will be plenty of people who are willing to work for Dash instead of fiat.

Dash has value, if a proposal would add to the value of Dash, then that is only to the benefit of the proposal originator (and the currency as a whole)



spatula, get real... Try the following experiment. Order a pizza and convince them to pay in Dash... What do you think the outcome will be?

 If we contract outside work, people get payed in whatever terms THEY see fit. If could be dollars, it could be bananas. The Miami BTC conference was tagged in USD, not for us, for everyone.

 If, before hand, they accept Dash, brilliant! The core team gets payed in Dash and no one complains.

 Otherwise we have a conundrum.
This too is correct.  In this case... The contract was for covering USD.  

I think the moral of the story is... In all future budgets it should be defined whether the project is pinned to USD/Fiat or DASH/BTC so we can avoid this kind of confusion.

^This. Proposers should probably mention in their proposal what currency they are paying the vendor, and people can evaluate that and let it influence their vote as well.

This is pretty reasonable. As a masternode owner, I will be less inclined to vote for proposals that demand payment in USD over ones in Dash. If they believe in Dash, and want to see it succeed (and therefore accept DASH as payment), I will be MUCH more likely to give them my support.
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February 02, 2016, 05:16:07 PM

Pay them upfront in Dash, don't sign a 3 month contract promising them a certain amount of Dash per month. Especially when its SUCH a volatile currency. It's just ludicrous.


It's like saying hey, I want to sign up with your company and pay you in Dash, which we all know is going to fluctuate wildly, but hey it's ok I want to make you wealthy, so I will pay you XXXX Dash per month anyways because I believe in it, and I have no problem paying 10x for your services because of that!

Wtf?

You can better spend the money. Don't go handing it all over to people who will just cash out to USD anyways.. because of some futuristic dream we all share.


Businesses are built in reality, aka todays world, not the future. Play by todays rules, don't break the budget because you wanted to sign a horrible contract that said you owe us XXXXX Dash per month.

edit: and why the hell is it an issue? If you don't want to deal with this problem, don;t sign a 3 month contract in Dash, pay them the 3 months upfront and get it over with, they still have the same chances to gain at that point, without us being on the hook for it, and without it WASTING the budget.

Is that so hard to see?
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February 02, 2016, 05:55:05 PM

With the DASH volatility problem in budget proposals, why not do something with Nubits or something similar?
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February 02, 2016, 06:03:36 PM

Pay them upfront in Dash, don't sign a 3 month contract promising them a certain amount of Dash per month. Especially when its SUCH a volatile currency. It's just ludicrous.


It's like saying hey, I want to sign up with your company and pay you in Dash, which we all know is going to fluctuate wildly, but hey it's ok I want to make you wealthy, so I will pay you XXXX Dash per month anyways because I believe in it, and I have no problem paying 10x for your services because of that!



Over the last year, the Dash price has fallen a lot more than it has risen. Dash-based contracts would have actually saved the network a lot of money, because there have been many cases where people would have accepted 1000 Dash at $2.25 each and ended up actually receiving 1000 Dash at $1.75 each. That's why the argument is disingenuous; the same people complaining about overpaying in fiat terms would be saying how the idea of paying in Dash is genius if the price of Dash was *falling.*

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February 02, 2016, 06:05:51 PM

New Tatiana Show live in 1hr @ 12pm EST (on Liberty.me & The LTB Network ) w/ Josh of Vaultoro.com & Daniel Diaz of Dash
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https://liberty.me/live/the-tatiana-show-dash-digital-currency/

Thanks

watching.. thanks

Learn from the past, set detailed and vivid goals for the future and live in the only moment of time over which you have any control : now
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February 02, 2016, 06:08:26 PM



If all your saying is to be realistic, then why do your examples include the blockchain budget funding pizza, or protection from aliens?

We are talking about proposals for the blockchain budget, to benefit Dash. Hiring an independent web-dev is the most "realistic" thing you listed, and is also the one you concluded would be willing to be paid in Dash.



 loool ...no mate. The pizza was not a proposal, but an example of a regular day-to-day transaction where Dash is not yet (socially) viable for the stated reasons.

 The second was an exaggerated opposite proposal, and the alien a hyperbolic comic-relief of sorts.. works better in real life. Not trying to be funny there, just exaggerating a point to make a point.

 Which I then concluded that is is perfectly viable to pay someone for services with Dash, if they so wish. But as soon as you have goods (paint like Evan said, raw material, electricity, employees, etc) - then it's really tough to project funds for the future.
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February 02, 2016, 06:17:59 PM

Pay them upfront in Dash, don't sign a 3 month contract promising them a certain amount of Dash per month. Especially when its SUCH a volatile currency. It's just ludicrous.


It's like saying hey, I want to sign up with your company and pay you in Dash, which we all know is going to fluctuate wildly, but hey it's ok I want to make you wealthy, so I will pay you XXXX Dash per month anyways because I believe in it, and I have no problem paying 10x for your services because of that!



Over the last year, the Dash price has fallen a lot more than it has risen. Dash-based contracts would have actually saved the network a lot of money, because there have been many cases where people would have accepted 1000 Dash at $2.25 each and ended up actually receiving 1000 Dash at $1.75 each. That's why the argument is disingenuous; the same people complaining about overpaying in fiat terms would be saying how the idea of paying in Dash is genius if the price of Dash was *falling.*

Thats a fair argument for a single payment in Dash. Not for supporting a 3 month contract.

Services are worth what they are worth, Dash is worth something different everyday so why are we treating the service like its value changes daily as well? It doesn't. Contracts like this are going to bloat the budget unless something is done to address it. The budget's USD value changes all the time, why is the contract pegged to a certain amount of Dash and not USD instead?
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February 02, 2016, 06:39:39 PM

Pay them upfront in Dash, don't sign a 3 month contract promising them a certain amount of Dash per month. Especially when its SUCH a volatile currency. It's just ludicrous.


It's like saying hey, I want to sign up with your company and pay you in Dash, which we all know is going to fluctuate wildly, but hey it's ok I want to make you wealthy, so I will pay you XXXX Dash per month anyways because I believe in it, and I have no problem paying 10x for your services because of that!



Over the last year, the Dash price has fallen a lot more than it has risen. Dash-based contracts would have actually saved the network a lot of money, because there have been many cases where people would have accepted 1000 Dash at $2.25 each and ended up actually receiving 1000 Dash at $1.75 each. That's why the argument is disingenuous; the same people complaining about overpaying in fiat terms would be saying how the idea of paying in Dash is genius if the price of Dash was *falling.*

Thats a fair argument for a single payment in Dash. Not for supporting a 3 month contract.

Services are worth what they are worth, Dash is worth something different everyday so why are we treating the service like its value changes daily as well? It doesn't. Contracts like this are going to bloat the budget unless something is done to address it. The budget's USD value changes all the time, why is the contract pegged to a certain amount of Dash and not USD instead?

You are looking at apples and oranges. If the service provider quotes a price in Dash, then that's the price regardless of what Dash is valued in USD.

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February 02, 2016, 06:51:25 PM

Pay them upfront in Dash, don't sign a 3 month contract promising them a certain amount of Dash per month. Especially when its SUCH a volatile currency. It's just ludicrous.


It's like saying hey, I want to sign up with your company and pay you in Dash, which we all know is going to fluctuate wildly, but hey it's ok I want to make you wealthy, so I will pay you XXXX Dash per month anyways because I believe in it, and I have no problem paying 10x for your services because of that!



Over the last year, the Dash price has fallen a lot more than it has risen. Dash-based contracts would have actually saved the network a lot of money, because there have been many cases where people would have accepted 1000 Dash at $2.25 each and ended up actually receiving 1000 Dash at $1.75 each. That's why the argument is disingenuous; the same people complaining about overpaying in fiat terms would be saying how the idea of paying in Dash is genius if the price of Dash was *falling.*

Thats a fair argument for a single payment in Dash. Not for supporting a 3 month contract.

Services are worth what they are worth, Dash is worth something different everyday so why are we treating the service like its value changes daily as well? It doesn't. Contracts like this are going to bloat the budget unless something is done to address it. The budget's USD value changes all the time, why is the contract pegged to a certain amount of Dash and not USD instead?

You are looking at apples and oranges. If the service provider quotes a price in Dash, then that's the price regardless of what Dash is valued in USD.

Find a less shitty contractor then?

Manage your budget. Or we'll do it for you. It's that simple. This is bad budgeting any way you slice it.

The REAL world still runs on USD, stop forgetting that please. This is not the year 2230 where crypto might or might not have worked out, this is the age of USD. Which in some sense of the word is "stable".
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February 02, 2016, 07:23:20 PM


Find a less shitty contractor then?

Manage your budget. Or we'll do it for you. It's that simple. This is bad budgeting any way you slice it.

The REAL world still runs on USD, stop forgetting that please. This is not the year 2230 where crypto might or might not have worked out, this is the age of USD. Which in some sense of the word is "stable".

1.So if someone accepts Dash it's a shitty contractor? Wtf? If the idea is to "try" to make more adoption?

2. USD is not stable. Check the history of BirCanada who bought wine in US$ and his CA$ went down.
Why there is insurance for $ volatility in big contracts?
And the problem we have already exist for contracts between country, and like I said big company buy a insurance against volatility for that.

If someone accept Dash for his budget (for me it's the ideal deal), then the blockchain will pay him the fixed Dash amount every month.
In the case the price really go UP, really high, then can I remember that you can DOWNVOTE at any time, and maybe the person can re-submit a new proposal with less Dash/month?
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February 02, 2016, 07:41:47 PM


Find a less shitty contractor then?

Manage your budget. Or we'll do it for you. It's that simple. This is bad budgeting any way you slice it.

The REAL world still runs on USD, stop forgetting that please. This is not the year 2230 where crypto might or might not have worked out, this is the age of USD. Which in some sense of the word is "stable".

1.So if someone accepts Dash it's a shitty contractor? Wtf? If the idea is to "try" to make more adoption?

2. USD is not stable. Check the history of BirCanada who bought wine in US$ and his CA$ went down.
Why there is insurance for $ volatility in big contracts?
And the problem we have already exist for contracts between country, and like I said big company buy a insurance against volatility for that.

If someone accept Dash for his budget (for me it's the ideal deal), then the blockchain will pay him the fixed Dash amount every month.
In the case the price really go UP, really high, then can I remember that you can DOWNVOTE at any time, and maybe the person can re-submit a new proposal with less Dash/month?

The "shitty" part comes in when they don't give us an option. Not because they accept Dash. They are shitty because our core team has to defend them instead of thier work defending them. This wouldn't be an issue if we had more transparency into whats happening as far as "pr" work goes.

I agree everything is volatile, so when we have a chance to use a LESS VOLATILE CURRENCY TO BALANCE THE BUDGET, that should be a no brainer right? Couple that with my "don't put a network on the hook for a long term contract" point and what does that equal?

A fair budget that everyone can use, not just the PR firm, Core team & some top secret getaways.

We want grassroots PROJECTS, stuff we can watch grow, stuff we can see an ROI with.
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February 02, 2016, 07:53:38 PM


Find a less shitty contractor then?

Manage your budget. Or we'll do it for you. It's that simple. This is bad budgeting any way you slice it.

The REAL world still runs on USD, stop forgetting that please. This is not the year 2230 where crypto might or might not have worked out, this is the age of USD. Which in some sense of the word is "stable".

1.So if someone accepts Dash it's a shitty contractor? Wtf? If the idea is to "try" to make more adoption?

2. USD is not stable. Check the history of BirCanada who bought wine in US$ and his CA$ went down.
Why there is insurance for $ volatility in big contracts?
And the problem we have already exist for contracts between country, and like I said big company buy a insurance against volatility for that.

If someone accept Dash for his budget (for me it's the ideal deal), then the blockchain will pay him the fixed Dash amount every month.
In the case the price really go UP, really high, then can I remember that you can DOWNVOTE at any time, and maybe the person can re-submit a new proposal with less Dash/month?

The "shitty" part comes in when they don't give us an option. Not because they accept Dash. They are shitty because our core team has to defend them instead of thier work defending them. This wouldn't be an issue if we had more transparency into whats happening as far as "pr" work goes.

I agree everything is volatile, so when we have a chance to use a LESS VOLATILE CURRENCY TO BALANCE THE BUDGET, that should be a no brainer right? Couple that with my "don't put a network on the hook for a long term contract" point and what does that equal?

A fair budget that everyone can use, not just the PR firm, Core team & some top secret getaways.

We want grassroots PROJECTS, stuff we can watch grow, stuff we can see an ROI with.

I agree about the need for increased transparency and avoidance of long-term contracts. However, I do disagree about paying out USD as a default currency. I think if people want to do work for a currency, they should be willing to accept that currency. I think converting to fiat for a contractor should only be done in rare cases.

If there is a project you disagree with, make sure you vote NO. That's your duty as a masternode owner.

If the price of dash skyrockets and you think something you previously voted "yes" for is now overfunded, change your vote. As mentioned above, the proposal owner can always resubmit with a lower number.

We can pay for work in dash, and use the voting system to help level out volatility in price. That combined with short-term agreements (non-recurring, single payments)



We will probably all never agree on how this should be done, but it doesn't really matter if we agree. We can vote.

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February 02, 2016, 07:57:26 PM

This is the real world folks Dash is not anywhere near replacing fiat. Most expenses will be paid down the line in fiat. This is the reality

Meanwhile we commit to a contract in which we pay 100 Dash per month, and dash falls in value. Contractor can't complete the job, ruined reputation etc. How does that help them or us?

On flip side we commit to a contract in which we pay 100 Dash per month, dash rises to huge new heights and the contractor is laughing, easy money for very little effort. That is all value being taken away from Dash for very little gain. Meanwhile other viable proposals fail to get funding because there is not enough slices left in the pie. Nic efor the contractor who gets the easy money, not nice for those missing out. Not nice for Dash getting bang for buck.

Long term contracts paid out in Dash is not going to work. I don't think hedging with derivatives will head anywhere good either. Keep it simple. Pay in Dash, renegotiate often based on exchange rates.

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February 02, 2016, 08:05:14 PM

So did the major BT outages today impact many masternodes? Anybody have a good way to see that kind of information?
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February 02, 2016, 08:26:19 PM

DASH  = DASH

Dash is not fiat

If you don't like the way a proposal is written - than vote no....

...pretty simple....
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February 02, 2016, 08:51:25 PM

Just to put things into perspective: The "problems" we are facing with upwards revaluation and deals made in dash rather than fiat are "problems" that others would kill to have Cool
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