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del
September 08, 2011, 12:40:48 PM
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del
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September 08, 2011, 12:53:46 PM
 #2

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

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Sekioh
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September 08, 2011, 01:12:01 PM
 #3

It doesn't "STEAL" money from you, just imbalances it in the long run.

You still get your equal share of the shares/50 block reward, the issue is say you have a new pool at only a Gh/s, you could get billions of shares and never get a block, then you finally get a block, and the 10 people who were mining on that pool get 50 to split! you all get basically a % of the reward as your shares over total shares. BUT, that 50 could take months, so your percent might be the same as with a big pool but look how many hours it took to get there?

Now forward to a big pool (deepbit for example) which has so much hash power that they get say half of the 10min block solves since people keep saying they're about half the total strength. Theres more total shares, but you still have equal percent and they happen way more frequently so you're getting a very tight coin over time earnings.

If you look at a pool hopper 'cluster' that drops in on that little small pool in the first example, your little 1Gh/s makes a few shares chugging along, and the 10Gh/s that just dropped in makes 10x the shares you do. They leave at say 90% of the time it will take to get a block (in hindsight, they wouldn't really know how long it'd take). They own like 90% of 90% of the block. But wait, now your poor little networks back where it started, you'll take months and months to get a block, by then your little 10% might make it back up to 30% of the total shares. BAM, you solve block, oh look, you spent the same months and months to get there as that first month, but now you only get 20coins instead of 50, that one person gets 30 'for free' for a few hours of heavy mining on your pool while he's off doing the same on other pools. Now instead of a low time to coin ratio you had taking forever with your slow network, now it's even WORSE of earnings.

Also I see this is why people flock to a big pool like Slush/Deepbit, because the speed they solve blocks squeezes every drop out of your shares. But basically, yes hopping in one way or another depending on your twisted view of the definition 'steals' money from you.
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September 08, 2011, 01:22:56 PM
 #4

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

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September 08, 2011, 01:27:20 PM
 #5

I mine at a proportional pool which is not being hopped "for a reason", "because they are fucking with us" (according to the pyhopper readme) so I don't care in the slightest  Grin

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
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September 08, 2011, 01:29:06 PM
 #6

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

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September 08, 2011, 01:59:06 PM
 #7

Okay, so then say EVERYONE decides to cutting their risk of losses and now 100% of miners pool-hop. Every pool will stay at a crawl until the whole swarm runs to it, then we solve a block from the collective spike of over 50%, now we have two issues, A: we're back where we started with everyone getting equal proportion and would be just as fine if nobody was dicks and poolhopped, and B: you have the 50% issue of giving control to a split of more pools in round-robin fashion, leaving more room for one of the many pool owners to 'hack' the blockchain.

The need to poolhop is being spurred on BY the poolhopping.


(oh look I can bold too, my statements must mean more!)
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September 08, 2011, 02:15:38 PM
 #8

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

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September 08, 2011, 02:21:00 PM
 #9

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

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September 08, 2011, 04:15:35 PM
 #10

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

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September 08, 2011, 05:35:25 PM
 #11

Guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

I know that I am in minority here, but I am trying to make it a vocal minority.  Grin


It's simple, really.

If pool-hopping results in more income, and you're not providing more shares (more assistance in finding a block...you know, more WORK) you're getting something for NOTHING.
That "something" has to be taken from somebody else -- but the only "somebody else's" are the other miners on that pool, who are all contributing shares (work).
So those who make extra money by pool hopping are getting money that WOULD HAVE GONE TO OTHER MINERS. Hence the low-tech term, "stealing".

And no, hoppers aren't putting in their "valuable time" to "optimize" their operation. Not all work is productive.

If I spend an hour optimizing Poclbm, or cooling my rigs/increasing my overclock rates, THAT is productive. I get more hashrate, and more shares -- more WORK is done. My machines can do more WORK because they're more efficient.

The argument of the pool-hoppers is like saying I can compare 2 hours of actual work for a client with 1 hour of goofing off and 1 hour of carefully falsifying records, etc. so I get paid for 2 hours.
No, even though the results are comparable, there is no comparison!
I'm sure the boss would rather pay me 2 hour for 2 hours' work, than 2 hours for 1 hours' work and 1 hours' work falsifying documents.

The pool hoppers would say, "It doesn't matter. You did 2 hours worth of work either way, and you got your 2 hours pay". In fact, they'd say it would be even better to spend 1 hour working, 1 hour falsifying records, and get paid for THREE hours. When confronted with the immoral nature of that transaction, they'd claim to be "optimizing" their work day.

I'm sure bank robbers put in some "work" to pull off their heists as well -- but sorry, that work can't ever be claimed.

When you do useless "work" -- whether it be "casing the joint", noting when your neighbors are home, taking pictures of the bank's security systems -- or fine-tuning your pool hopping operation -- no one owes you any recompense for such work. Your spending time in that manner is your own problem. You might as well have watched TV for all the time spent doing such activities.
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September 08, 2011, 10:20:27 PM
 #12

Vladimir, how do you feel about people who have stopped mining now BTC is in the $6-7 range, who WILL return when it is in the $9-10 range?

How about people that hop onto these alternative currencies when the diff is low and profit is high and then come back to btc when it is no longer the case?

mooo for rent
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September 08, 2011, 10:37:51 PM
 #13

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

See you at https://bitcoin.org.uk/forums/

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September 08, 2011, 10:45:06 PM
 #14

In just a few month time, once BTC/$ hits 3 digit number, lawsuits against corrupt pool operators for breach of fiduciary duty might be viable.
i lol'd

sooner or later, the hoppers will somehow adapt to new hopping-prevention techniques.


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September 08, 2011, 10:46:46 PM
 #15

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

See you at https://bitcoin.org.uk/forums/

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September 08, 2011, 10:50:15 PM
 #16

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

See you at https://bitcoin.org.uk/

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September 08, 2011, 10:56:33 PM
 #17

fiduciary duty? lol by doing what forcing people to mine when it isnt profitable?.... oh i know switch off prop, despite a majority of their users want prop.. right?


remind me not to ask you for legal advice. There is no way any pool op will see any legal issue off of this, now you are just being histrionic as that is completely ridiculous. And very few pools charge a fee. There is no way you actually believe that crap, or you need to look up the law a bit more carefully. And their is zero deception, people get paid their shares just as the forumla says, no where does any pool guarantee a total hash rate. Does your pool guarantee a total hash rate?


people like you would ban selling off a stock when the share value starts to drop next to nil and then buying back stocks when they think the share value will  rise again.

It's math my friend, you can get pissed at the pool op for having prop despite their users actually want it, but when 50(myshares/totalshares) no longer makes sense to me, it no longer makes sense to me. Just like for some people money spent generating bitcoins> BTC to USD exchange rate, no longer makes sense, they stop mining and start buying. Other people, like the namecoiners are perfectly happy chugging away at 4 times diff

mooo for rent
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September 08, 2011, 11:12:03 PM
 #18

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

See you at https://bitcoin.org.uk/

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September 08, 2011, 11:15:20 PM
 #19

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

See you at https://bitcoin.org.uk/

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September 08, 2011, 11:59:03 PM
 #20

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

See you at https://bitcoin.org.uk/

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