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[AnnihilaT]

Hoppers steal money from other miners is a MYTH

shouts one of the most well known hoppers on this forum...   If everyone leaves hopper friendly pools but hoppers you guys are kinda screwed arent you?  You will end up mining like everyone else for a fair and ethical payout you deserve instead of exploiting the system for your own benefit at the expense of others.

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[Starlightbreaker]

Hoppers steal money from other miners is a MYTH

shouts one of the most well known hoppers on this forum...   If everyone leaves hopper friendly pools but hoppers you guys are kinda screwed arent you?  You will end up mining like everyone else for a fair and ethical payout you deserve instead of exploiting the system for your own benefit at the expense of others.

While it hasn't happened yet, i guess my avatar is still relevant.

[Jack of Diamonds]

hoppers and normal miners are equally paid for their shares, hoppers do not steal any income from others miners so that statement that hoppers steal money from other mines is false the only ppl who steal money from miners are pool admins that put penalty's block ip's and frozen accounts

plz dont forget to paste your data if you think hoppers steal bitcoins from you

'Share shopping' is still theft from the people that keep mining on long blocks.
Even slush and tycho admitted this months & months ago and created countermeasures.

Without them the hopping method becomes impossible.
So you are directly dependent on people mining there for more than 43% of a block duration 24/7.

If not 'theft', how can you say it's not at the least, taking advantage of the stupid and gullible?
That's definitely not illegal, but it will eventually disillusion many new miners when they realize their earnings are 30-40% less than expected.

Maybe a better word is embezzlement of shared funds (even if through 'legit' means).

[Vladimir]

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

See you at https://bitcoin.org.uk/

[organofcorti]

I mine at a proportional pool which is not being hopped "for a reason", "because they are fucking with us" (according to the pyhopper readme) so I don't care in the slightest 

The main reason a proportional pool is not hopped is that the pool op is not trustworthy - for example having a rule that hopping is ok if you make a donation, and then changing this before informing anyone. Or IP banning some users without notification or even banning their accounts.

In fact, the 'proportional pools not mined for a reason' are often ones that full time miners shouldn't use. If I mined full time, I'd be leery of a pool op who I couldn't trust.

[Littleshop]

You can argue about what hopping is (theft, fraud, efficiency, fun, etc) but one thing is true in the long run:

If you are mining in pool that is favored by hoppers because of its payout system, and you are not hoping, you are making less money.

So if you are not a hopper, leave the hopped pool or make less money.  

[ElectricMucus]

I mine at a proportional pool which is not being hopped "for a reason", "because they are fucking with us" (according to the pyhopper readme) so I don't care in the slightest 

The main reason a proportional pool is not hopped is that the pool op is not trustworthy - for example having a rule that hopping is ok if you make a donation, and then changing this before informing anyone. Or IP banning some users without notification or even banning their accounts.

In fact, the 'proportional pools not mined for a reason' are often ones that full time miners shouldn't use. If I mined full time, I'd be leery of a pool op who I couldn't trust.

Well, that is right of course, but how you gonna determine that trust? The only way to be certain is if you personally know the operator, otherwise. you can't trust anyone. So if you can't trust anyone you might as well swallow the bait and hope for the best, which is what I am doing.

[scatterbrain]

obviously, no one is going to be convinced of the other side's opinion on hopping. both sides bring up valid points, but i don't see any legal evidence to backup the claims of fraud, deception, or theft. it's just different interpretations of math. as stated by a previous post, it is more an issue of taking advantage of those not aware of certain facts about hopping, which is not illegal. why is it the responsibility of the pool to provide such information about hopping? a pool tells you its payment method which is all you need to know. information about hopping and how it works on different payout methods is freely available. heck, there are even mathematical papers written on it referred to earlier in the thread. where is the intentional deception, the fraud? is it in the pool not telling you that their pool is susceptible to hopping? this information is not hidden by the pool; it simply requires you to do a minimal amount of research. maybe if the pool didn't tell you the payment method you could claim fraud but all the math is open for anyone to see. it is the responsibility of the miner to choose their pool, and if they choose poorly because they failed to inform themselves of certain facts it remains the miner's decision and the miner's responsibility. i mine where i choose to because i can, because there are no restrictions as to how, when or where i mine. i believe that is a great asset of bitcoin.

[organofcorti]

I mine at a proportional pool which is not being hopped "for a reason", "because they are fucking with us" (according to the pyhopper readme) so I don't care in the slightest 

The main reason a proportional pool is not hopped is that the pool op is not trustworthy - for example having a rule that hopping is ok if you make a donation, and then changing this before informing anyone. Or IP banning some users without notification or even banning their accounts.

In fact, the 'proportional pools not mined for a reason' are often ones that full time miners shouldn't use. If I mined full time, I'd be leery of a pool op who I couldn't trust.

Well, that is right of course, but how you gonna determine that trust? The only way to be certain is if you personally know the operator, otherwise. you can't trust anyone. So if you can't trust anyone you might as well swallow the bait and hope for the best, which is what I am doing.

You could use the "not mined for a reason" section in the bH readme. That's a good indicator of prop pools I where I wouldn't trust the operator.

[bcpokey]

Why this topic again? Neither side is going to listen to the other.

You can argue about what hopping is (theft, fraud, efficiency, fun, etc) but one thing is true in the long run:

If you are mining in pool that is favored by hoppers because of its payout system, and you are not hoping, you are making less money.

So if you are not a hopper, leave the hopped pool or make less money. 

This is the only statement in this whole thread worth saying.

[ElectricMucus]

I mine at a proportional pool which is not being hopped "for a reason", "because they are fucking with us" (according to the pyhopper readme) so I don't care in the slightest 

The main reason a proportional pool is not hopped is that the pool op is not trustworthy - for example having a rule that hopping is ok if you make a donation, and then changing this before informing anyone. Or IP banning some users without notification or even banning their accounts.

In fact, the 'proportional pools not mined for a reason' are often ones that full time miners shouldn't use. If I mined full time, I'd be leery of a pool op who I couldn't trust.

Well, that is right of course, but how you gonna determine that trust? The only way to be certain is if you personally know the operator, otherwise. you can't trust anyone. So if you can't trust anyone you might as well swallow the bait and hope for the best, which is what I am doing.

You could use the "not mined for a reason" section in the bH readme. That's a good indicator of prop pools I where I wouldn't trust the operator.

It says not hooped, and does in fact state it is "a nice pool to mine at" in the readme

[organofcorti]

It says not hooped, and does in fact state it is "a nice pool to mine at" in the readme

But I looked in the readme and didn't see anything about pools there, and I looked at the wiki and while it's changed a bit since I last looked there's nothing about 'nice pool to mine at'. Can you post a link? I'm not doubting you, just want a look at the context.

[ElectricMucus]

Nada, people would try to hop it "just because"

[organofcorti]

Nada, people would try to hop it "just because"

Really? You think people would waste hashes on a pool 'just because'? Hmmm. Pool hopping. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[ElectricMucus]

ok I admit I don't... I'm out   

[Meni Rosenfeld]

@AnnihilaT if that avatar and that signature for a reason times have shown that PROP pool are what ppl like if you sum all prop pools is a large part of the network, if there was no PROP pool then i will hopp PPLNS/SMPPS pools

PPLNS, if implemented correctly, is hopping-proof, you can't gain anything from hopping it.
SMPPS is not hopping-proof but you can only decrease your variance by using it to hop, not increase your expectation. But I agree, I expect that when proportional dies, SMPPS will be the new proportional.
You may try lie-in-wait until oblivious shares are implemented.

sooner or later, the hoppers will somehow adapt to new hopping-prevention techniques.

To "hopping-prevention techniques", probably. To hopping-proof reward systems, no.

[Vladimir]

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

See you at https://bitcoin.org.uk/

[organofcorti]

You may try lie-in-wait until oblivious shares are implemented.

But Meni, that wouldn't be ethical.

[Vladimir]

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

See you at https://bitcoin.org.uk/

[Meni Rosenfeld]

You may try lie-in-wait until oblivious shares are implemented.

But Meni, that wouldn't be ethical.

Of course. But as I've said elsewhere, I find hopping permissible since it could expedite the destruction of proportional pools, and the same applies here.