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Author Topic: Can Algos and/or ASICs be patented ?  (Read 284 times)
gameboy366
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May 25, 2018, 08:15:40 AM
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Can a algorithm be patented ? What about ASICs ? Can Bitmain patent a particular ASIC so that others can't manufacturer an asic for a particular algo without licence from patent holder ?
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May 25, 2018, 08:47:18 AM
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Well if you can patent it, how would you control it?
I dont think that is possible, but the time will tell  Grin
HansHagberg
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May 25, 2018, 10:16:09 AM
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Can a algorithm be patented ? What about ASICs ? Can Bitmain patent a particular ASIC so that others can't manufacturer an asic for a particular algo without licence from patent holder ?


It's even worse if one is to believe what is written.
https://blog.sia.tech/the-state-of-cryptocurrency-mining-538004a37f9b

Bitmain is said to play dirty and actively prevents anyone else to develop / manufacture ASICs for mining. They can do this because most competitive chip makers are in China and they have the resources to do what they want.
gameboy366
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May 25, 2018, 10:45:45 AM
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Can a algorithm be patented ? What about ASICs ? Can Bitmain patent a particular ASIC so that others can't manufacturer an asic for a particular algo without licence from patent holder ?


It's even worse if one is to believe what is written.
https://blog.sia.tech/the-state-of-cryptocurrency-mining-538004a37f9b

Bitmain is said to play dirty and actively prevents anyone else to develop / manufacture ASICs for mining. They can do this because most competitive chip makers are in China and they have the resources to do what they want.
I have read that article but that doesn't answer my question. I am not asking about Bitmain in particular but about any company if they can patent their ASICs.
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May 25, 2018, 10:58:35 AM
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You can probably patent the design of an ASIC chip or machine, but software put on it would need to be copyrighted.  I don’t know if you can copyright open source software that anyone can compile.  On top of that, any patent or copyright is only as strong as the country where it is filed.  (I am not an attorney, so don’t consider this legal advice.)
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May 25, 2018, 11:30:53 AM
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You can probably patent the design of an ASIC chip or machine, but software put on it would need to be copyrighted.  I don’t know if you can copyright open source software that anyone can compile.  On top of that, any patent or copyright is only as strong as the country where it is filed.  (I am not an attorney, so don’t consider this legal advice.)

I think patents and/or copyrights are international.
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May 25, 2018, 01:23:23 PM
 #7

Can a algorithm be patented ? What about ASICs ? Can Bitmain patent a particular ASIC so that others can't manufacturer an asic for a particular algo without licence from patent holder ?

of course you can try to patent it, but noboby will give a fuck Grin


gameboy366
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May 25, 2018, 03:11:58 PM
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Can a algorithm be patented ? What about ASICs ? Can Bitmain patent a particular ASIC so that others can't manufacturer an asic for a particular algo without licence from patent holder ?

of course you can try to patent it, but noboby will give a fuck Grin


But patent can stop big, registered companies from using that algo right ?
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May 25, 2018, 06:00:05 PM
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Bitmain got alot of patents. One of the more well knowned is ASICBOOST, that hindered every other ASIC manufacturer to develop it and bitmain kept 30% speed boost to their self.
I hate that patents and copyright has made its way into Bitcoin/altcoins. The whole point of crypto is the decentralized and open idea behind it. Sad now its all about making money.
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May 25, 2018, 06:10:38 PM
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Seems reasonable to conclude there will be more attempts made as big money and centralization attempt to expand into the space.
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May 25, 2018, 06:12:49 PM
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And what is the proletum? The patents are usually chips, processors and etc. I am sure that Bitmain has a patent for chip asic. Can someone make asics on Bitmain chips without permission?
We have in Russia producing asics on the permission of Bitmain. Technology 28 nm Smiley
Capacity 176 TH /s SHA256, consumption 64 kW Smiley
Model FM2017-BT16. Learn more on Russian  http://criptoprofit.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=84
gameboy366
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May 25, 2018, 06:24:57 PM
 #12

Okay, so it looks like that ASIC miners can be patented.

But what about alogorithm ? Can someone patent it ? I know that it won't stop devs with hidden identities or underground projects but what about registered companies ? Will patent stop them from using it ?
gameboy366
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May 25, 2018, 06:29:18 PM
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And what is the proletum? The patents are usually chips, processors and etc. I am sure that Bitmain has a patent for chip asic. Can someone make asics on Bitmain chips without permission?
We have in Russia producing asics on the permission of Bitmain. Technology 28 nm Smiley
Capacity 176 TH /s SHA256, consumption 64 kW Smiley
Model FM2017-BT16. Learn more on Russian  http://criptoprofit.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=84
Are you completely manufacturing the ASICs in Russia ? The manufacturing cost will be too high.
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May 25, 2018, 09:06:11 PM
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And what is the proletum? The patents are usually chips, processors and etc. I am sure that Bitmain has a patent for chip asic. Can someone make asics on Bitmain chips without permission?
We have in Russia producing asics on the permission of Bitmain. Technology 28 nm Smiley
Capacity 176 TH /s SHA256, consumption 64 kW Smiley
Model FM2017-BT16. Learn more on Russian  http://criptoprofit.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=84
Are you completely manufacturing the ASICs in Russia ? The manufacturing cost will be too high.
By technology 28 nm asics are completely assembled in Russia( Chips are supplied from China). Yes it's old and inefficient technology, but ...

176 Th / s SHA256 (up to 200Th / s can be accelerated), consumption 64 kW - price 17600 $ (new) or used ~ 11000 $

The price of electricity in Russia is $ 0.03-0.04 per Kw, and can be found cheaper.

But devices using 16 nm technology are supplied from China. While Bitmain does not give permission to manufacture.
Here is the photo

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May 25, 2018, 11:22:31 PM
 #15

Patented in which country?  Licensed in which country?  Various countries have various laws and sometimes there actually are international laws that meet up but are rarely followed.

Look at ccminer.  It's "licensed" but that doesn't stop people from duplicating the code, optimizing it, and then slapping on a dev fee.

Personally, I don't mind paying dev fees but by this point so many people know how to remove the dev fees and the intellectual property has been so far dispersed from any of the true originators... well... by now people should stop being so greedy.

So... patents?  licenses?  I just don't think these things should be for such profiteering aims in crypto land.  If someone has an original idea and wants to profit from it then they should do so from the beginning and enjoy it while it lasts.

Is the family of the guy who invented sliced bread living in eternal wealth because we send a nickel for every sliced loaf of bread?  lol

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markiz73
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May 26, 2018, 09:24:05 AM
 #16

Even if you own a technology of 10 nm for the production of a chip, then you need to build a plant worth several billion dollars, you need qualified engineers.
Software is very hard to protect.
In most cases, software makers want a lot of money for their products. For example, the average salary in the USA is 3000-4000 dollars per month, the average salary in Russia is 500 dollars Smiley So the idiots from Microsoft sell Windows in Russia at a price of 120-300 dollars and an office at the same price or subscription for 50-60 dollars a year.
The most ridiculous thing is that in the USA it costs much cheaper.
gameboy366
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May 26, 2018, 11:53:52 AM
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Even if you own a technology of 10 nm for the production of a chip, then you need to build a plant worth several billion dollars, you need qualified engineers.
Software is very hard to protect.
In most cases, software makers want a lot of money for their products. For example, the average salary in the USA is 3000-4000 dollars per month, the average salary in Russia is 500 dollars Smiley So the idiots from Microsoft sell Windows in Russia at a price of 120-300 dollars and an office at the same price or subscription for 50-60 dollars a year.
The most ridiculous thing is that in the USA it costs much cheaper.
Yes and this is what leads to piracy but also cost of living is Russia and asia is cheaper compared to US. I just download full softwares from torrents. I bought a pirated pre-activated Win10 ultimate for 1$ lol.

I was asking the question because we are working on a brand new algo.
alucard20724
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May 26, 2018, 01:49:52 PM
Last edit: May 26, 2018, 02:08:14 PM by alucard20724
 #18

You can probably patent the design of an ASIC chip or machine, but software put on it would need to be copyrighted.  I don’t know if you can copyright open source software that anyone can compile.  On top of that, any patent or copyright is only as strong as the country where it is filed.  (I am not an attorney, so don’t consider this legal advice.)

I think patents and/or copyrights are international.

no... patents and/or copyrights are only enforceable in the countries where they are obtained.   so if you want protection for your invention in a country or multiple countries, you must obtain a patent in each of the countries you want protection for.

You can file for your invention at wipo (world intellectual property organization) which would give you a PCT (patent cooperation treaty), and this would allow you to obtain the same filing date that you can use to pursue filing for patents in different countries.  WIPO is part of the United Nations.  The gives you the earliest filing date for filing for patents in various countries.  This is not a patent though, it's just for the filing date, and it gives you up to 30 months to file in various countries.   This is not an international patent.  There is no such thing as an international patent.  You can only enforce your patent in the country you obtain the patent from.
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May 26, 2018, 02:16:22 PM
 #19

Okay, so it looks like that ASIC miners can be patented.

But what about alogorithm ? Can someone patent it ? I know that it won't stop devs with hidden identities or underground projects but what about registered companies ? Will patent stop them from using it ?

A patent will not stop someone from using a patent.  A patent gives the patent holder the ability to enforce their patent in a court of law in the country which it was obtained.   

for example.  China can enforce their patent in China, to prevent someone in china from illegally using a patent.   They would not be able to enforce their patent in Russia, but they can prevent imports from Russia into China, where the products of the import violate the China patents.
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May 26, 2018, 04:07:44 PM
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How do big companies protect their software and hardware then ? That too at an international level.
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