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Author Topic: [ANN] Ethereum: Welcome to the Beginning  (Read 2003814 times)
charleshoskinson
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January 30, 2014, 06:17:13 AM
 #861

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+1, if only everyone knew how much of the worlds software is Java.

Java 8 is great; Nxt's java code not so much nor the design of the Proof of Stake. They seem to have a very active community and thus it will likely get better quickly.

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Thanks Charles for your answer. I personally find the idea behind Ethereum ingenius. I want to believe in it. Now I feel that we'll get answers to our concerns from the Ethereum team. I hope that Goldman Sachs is not involved. Without making a poll I suppose 80% of the forum members think that GS is responsible for lot of bad things in this world and we don't want a crpyto which GS has a finger in it.

We have two people on our team who started their financial careers- as many thousands have done- at Goldman Sachs. They have both since left and started other ventures. In both cases those were hedge funds. Joe retired and moved to Jamaica to be in the music industry and came out of retirement to join us. Costa went to university of Edinburgh to study LCS's relationship to finance for a PhD in Quantitative Finance. He is now running a hedge fund in Kyrgyzstan as well as building a full clearing house in etherscript.

We have no relationship with Goldman Sachs nor are they an investor. I wouldn't take their money if offered. I have great respect for their knowledge of the financial industry as well as quality of talent, but no respect for their business practices or questionable conduct.

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January 30, 2014, 06:21:59 AM
 #862


Java 8 is great; Nxt's java code not so much nor the design of the Proof of Stake. ...


hearsay?  Roll Eyes
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January 30, 2014, 06:22:47 AM
 #863

So, we should listen to Ethereum detractors LeoC (who is an admitted extortionist) and gutshot5820 (who admitted he doesnt care about the tech and only interested in profiting from pump-and-dump schemes ), but ignore the people who support Ethereum because they are just shills... Roll Eyes
charleshoskinson
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January 30, 2014, 06:24:57 AM
 #864

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hearsay?  Roll Eyes

Cryptography background talking. Also I've written a lot of java code. There are some really amazing developers in the java community and their code provides a clear contrast to bad code. Nxt is a young project and they will likely clean things up a great deal over the coming months. Success breeds scrutiny, which in turn breeds quality. It's important to point out that Nxt is a fundamentally different technology than Ethereum. We can co-existed quite well. Nxt more challenges Bitcoin in certain respects.  

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Come-from-Beyond
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January 30, 2014, 06:25:24 AM
 #865

A 5000-10000 BTC limit with 50 BTC limit per person (at least for the first month) is more sensible.

What about Sybil attack? Will u ask for the passport?
_ingsoc
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January 30, 2014, 06:29:33 AM
 #866

We were never contacted by a regulatory body nor believe the models we have chosen are in any way in violation with relevant jurisdictions. This said, logistically and regulatorily, there are differences between raising 5,000 bitcoin and 30,000 in an equitable and fair way. We have a duty to those who trust us to do things the right way and have been in deep discussions for months about this topic with counsel from three different countries. I appreciate your concerns and they are indeed important to address and will be publicly once we announce the new fundraising date.

There are actually several models we could pursue if desired with some constituting a tax event without the need for any filing and others that could require one if we choose to accept certain jurisdictions. Ultimately, it comes down to what is best for everyone in the Ethereum community and what will allow for the best ROI for those who participate in the Ethereum Project. We are taking extra time to ensure this is answered in the most thorough way.

In the meantime, enjoy the testnet and all the other developments we will be launching in February and I'll see you guys soon in Zug.     

I'm really glad you guys are doing this. We need funding if Ethereum is going to do what it plans to do. I support a fundraising mechanism both because I think it fuels the innovation and because not everyone has easy access to mining, so contributing in a fundraiser becomes accessible. It's a minor point, but I think it's one that's often overlooked.

charleshoskinson
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January 30, 2014, 06:30:30 AM
 #867

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What about Sybil attack? Will u ask for the passport?

Basically this is the fundamental problem with such a scheme. Even if one limited the per person investment, then large investments can be bundled amongst groups of people similar to how political fundraisers process large pools. There are few effective ways to limit the per person investment that seem to be practical in our case, but we still have some good ideas about equitability in certain respects and will be modeling them over the coming weeks.  

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January 30, 2014, 06:34:16 AM
 #868

I hate to bring this up, but is it possible to get a statement about what happened with Invictus? I don't care about details if that's not necessary. My only concern is to find out whether there's a possibility of a disruption like that with Ethereum, which could affect the project if we're focusing on the longer-term.

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January 30, 2014, 06:38:25 AM
 #869

Conference, Alpha Testnet and Fundraiser Updates

January 29, 2014 - By Team

Ethereum received an incredible response at the Miami Bitcoin Conference. We traveled there anticipating many technical questions as well as a philosophical discussion about the purpose of Ethereum; however, the overwhelming amount of interest and enthusiasm for the project was much larger than we had anticipated. Vitalik’s presentation was met with both a standing ovation and a question queue that took hours to address.

Because we intend on providing an equal opportunity to all those who want to be involved, and are reviewing the relevant logistical and regulatory issues for a fundraiser of this scale, we have decided to postpone the Feb 1 launch of the fundraiser. We will make the announcement of the new fundraiser launch date on our official website: Ethereum.org.

The Ethereum project is also excited to announce the alpha release of the open source testnet client to the community at the beginning of February. This will give people an opportunity to get involved with the project and experiment with Ethereum scripts and contracts, and gain a better understanding of the technical properties of the Ethereum platform. Launching the testnet at this date will give those interested in the fundraiser a chance to better understand what the Ethereum project is about before participating.

The testnet will include full support for sending and receiving transactions, the initial version of the scripting language as described in our whitepaper, and may or may not include mining. This will also be the first major cryptocurrency project to have two official clients released at the same time, with one written in C++ and the other in Go; a Python client is also in the works. A compiler from the Ethereum CLL to Ethereum script will be released very soon.

A note on security

The fundraiser will NOT be launching on February 1st and any attempt to collect funds at this time should be considered a scam. There have been some scams in the forums thus please use caution and only consider information posted on Ethereum.org to be legitimate. It is important to reinforce to all that only information released and posted at Ethereum.org should be trusted as many are likely to impersonate us.

This appears wise. to postpone the fundraiser.

Admitted Practicing Lawyer::BTC/Crypto Specialist. B.Engineering/B.Laws

https://www.binance.com/?ref=10062065
charleshoskinson
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January 30, 2014, 06:40:00 AM
 #870

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I hate to bring this up, but is it possible to get a statement about what happened with Invictus? I don't care about details if that's not necessary. My only concern is to find out whether there's a possibility of a disruption like that with Ethereum, which could affect the project if we're focusing on the longer-term.

There were strategic and creative differences in the company and eventually it lead to a parting. We have since resolved all issues and it's considered to be a closed issue. If it's any consolation, Invictus is doing quite well as a company and shipping products thus I suppose the business plan wasn't too bad.

Unlike Invictus, we had a chance to get to know each other here on the Ethereum team and I'm very good friends with Anthony and Vitalik. We've collaborated first on the Bitcoin Education Project and his work on the Bitcoin Alliance of Canada. Ultimately, you have to make sure you have good team dynamics and respect prior to launching a venture. We did that here with Ethereum and even lived together at a beach house in Miami for a week to see how much we could get on each other's nerves. This really is the best team I've ever worked on.

In terms of Invictus, I think everyone is now getting along in the space:

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_ingsoc
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January 30, 2014, 06:53:26 AM
 #871

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I hate to bring this up, but is it possible to get a statement about what happened with Invictus? I don't care about details if that's not necessary. My only concern is to find out whether there's a possibility of a disruption like that with Ethereum, which could affect the project if we're focusing on the longer-term.

There were strategic and creative differences in the company and eventually it lead to a parting. We have since resolved all issues and it's considered to be a closed issue. If it's any consolation, Invictus is doing quite well as a company and shipping products thus I suppose the business plan wasn't too bad.

Unlike Invictus, we had a chance to get to know each other here on the Ethereum team and I'm very good friends with Anthony and Vitalik. We've collaborated first on the Bitcoin Education Project and his work on the Bitcoin Alliance of Canada. Ultimately, you have to make sure you have good team dynamics and respect prior to launching a venture. We did that here with Ethereum and even lived together at a beach house in Miami for a week to see how much we could get on each other's nerves. This really is the best team I've ever worked on.

This is great! Thank you. I think some of the growing pains we're experiencing in this thread are attributable to the idea that we're trying to evaluate Ethereum in terms of what we've been exposed to so far in the "anything that's not Bitcoin space". We can't evaluate a different paradigm adequately using the same old methods. You guys have a long-term perspective, and want to put organisational power behind the ideas. Contrary to what some people seem to believe, that's actually a really good thing. Running it like a community-engaged organisation, as well as being members of that community, is a powerful thing that'll bring many benefits.

Without your team being vested in what you work on, how can you steer this ship into uncharted oceans? People need to remember that those who work on this aren't labourers, they need to be vested to ensure the longevity of benefits to the community. Anyway, I don't want to sound like a pro-Ethereum shill, but I welcome something new and look forward to being part of it. Hard work should be respected.

EDIT: Can we get some swag too? Cheesy

charleshoskinson
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January 30, 2014, 06:57:04 AM
 #872

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EDIT: Can we get some swag too? Cheesy

I will personally pay for 300 tee shirts for the next conference if anything to see an army of 300 people wearing our shirts. The next line will have dropbox, a clearinghouse, an altcoin and perhaps a few other designs on the back. We'll also sign a few for you guys.

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kronicblazer
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January 30, 2014, 07:25:39 AM
 #873

So the IPO is on Feb 1st 0:00 GMT?  Do we post here to invest or is there some other site we invest on?  Can someone clarify the process and the investment limits/distribution method?  Thx
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January 30, 2014, 07:29:54 AM
 #874

So the IPO is on Feb 1st 0:00 GMT?  Do we post here to invest or is there some other site we invest on?  Can someone clarify the process and the investment limits/distribution method?  Thx

No. The fundraiser has been pushed back. No date has been announced yet. See the latest blog post about it. Anything that tries to take your money that claims to be the fundraiser is a scam.

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January 30, 2014, 07:39:42 AM
 #875

So the IPO is on Feb 1st 0:00 GMT?  Do we post here to invest or is there some other site we invest on?  Can someone clarify the process and the investment limits/distribution method?  Thx

No. The fundraiser has been pushed back. No date has been announced yet. See the latest blog post about it. Anything that tries to take your money that claims to be the fundraiser is a scam.

Is it a currency or a platform for new alt currencies. M nt able to understand

Besides,if I do invest.. How will I reap profits?

P.S. My background is not computer science.

NEM NXT NXTL NEX
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January 30, 2014, 07:44:41 AM
 #876

For the non-techie among us, would I be able to install alpha release of the testnet client on my Win 8? Some guidance would be helpful.  What does all this mean? "two official clients released at the same time, with one written in C++ and the other in Go; a Python client is also in the works. A compiler from the Ethereum CLL to Ethereum script will be released very soon."

see if this helps..
http://dr-pra.tumblr.com/post/73526554416/build-and-run-the-ethereum-go-client-on-windows

Are you not worried about: "Also be aware that this is still unreleased software and can cause severe damage on your machine. Use at your own risk!"?  Should I be? 

I have  64-bit OS.  Am I out of luck?  "Download the Go Windows 32-Bit Distribution and run the installer. As of now this guide does not cover 64-Bit installations as it causes some problems compiling the secp256k1 library."
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January 30, 2014, 07:45:19 AM
Last edit: January 30, 2014, 08:00:28 AM by _ingsoc
 #877

Is it a currency or a platform for new alt currencies. M nt able to understand

Besides,if I do invest.. How will I reap profits?

P.S. My background is not computer science.

Not sure if you've seen the videos, but they're pretty good at explaining what Ethereum is without getting too technical:

(1) Introducing Ethereum (by Vitalik Buterin and Charles Hoskinson - 2/4 of the Ethereum founders)
(2) What is Ethereum? (by Andreas Antonopoulos - note that I don't know if he's linked to the project)

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January 30, 2014, 07:48:24 AM
 #878

Are you not worried about: "Also be aware that this is still unreleased software and can cause severe damage on your machine. Use at your own risk!"?  Should I be?  

I have  64-bit OS.  Am I out of luck?  "Download the Go Windows 32-Bit Distribution and run the installer. As of now this guide does not cover 64-Bit installations as it causes some problems compiling the secp256k1 library."

We'll have to wait and see if they distribute binaries when the testnet comes in a little under two days. If you're unfamiliar with checking out code from repositories, I wouldn't bother with that approach for now.

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January 30, 2014, 08:00:54 AM
 #879

Is it a currency or a platform for new alt currencies. M nt able to understand

Besides,if I do invest.. How will I reap profits?

P.S. My background is not computer science.

Not sure if you've seen the videos, but they're pretty good at explaining what Ethereum is without getting too technical:

(1) Introducing Ethereum (by Vitalik Buterin and Charles Hoskinson - 2/4 of the Ethereum founders)
(2) What is Ethereum? (by Andreas Antonopoulos - note that don't know if he's linked to the project)

Lookin 4wrd to etherium.  Smiley

NEM NXT NXTL NEX
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January 30, 2014, 08:30:10 AM
 #880

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As I have been telling everyone all along, crowdfundraising of this size without proper legal filings was illegal.  Obviously, they have been contacted by the proper regulatory agencies.  This is why they have not been responding to questions regarding their investment structure in a detailed manner.  They are reviewing their proposal internally with their attorneys.  You can all thank me for at least being a voice for good judgement and hopefully they will proceed in manner does does not put your investments in jeopardy due to legal problems.

We were never contacted by a regulatory body nor believe the models we have chosen are in any way in violation with relevant jurisdictions. This said, logistically and regulatorily, there are differences between raising 5,000 bitcoin and 30,000 in an equitable and fair way. We have a duty to those who trust us to do things the right way and have been in deep discussions for months about this topic with counsel from three different countries. I appreciate your concerns and they are indeed important to address and will be publicly once we announce the new fundraising date.

There are actually several models we could pursue if desired with some constituting a tax event without the need for any filing and others that could require one if we choose to accept certain jurisdictions. Ultimately, it comes down to what is best for everyone in the Ethereum community and what will allow for the best ROI for those who participate in the Ethereum Project. We are taking extra time to ensure this is answered in the most thorough way.

In the meantime, enjoy the testnet and all the other developments we will be launching in February and I'll see you guys soon in Zug.     

Hopefully, regulatory issues are being worked out as promised as it will be one less thing to worry about, but I still stand with what I wrote earlier regarding the investment structure of the deal.

So far judging from the responses on all Ethereum forums here is what I see.  Most of the people posting on this forum and almost all the people that were at the Miami Conference praising Ethereum are developers.  There is genuine potential for this platform to be groundbreaking if done right.  The devs that are shilling for the Ethereum to succeed have either been involved in pre-fund raising before and want to see this succeed for selfish reasons or they believe in Ethereum  and are planning to monetize this platform in the future and want to see Ethereum succeed for selfish reasons.

Then you have the other half of the devs that are not involved with the project, see there are too many risks involved and fearful of wall street taking over the crypto industry.

Where I feel there is a severe disconnect is that the majority of opinions on this forum, Reddit, etc.. are developers and they will constitute less that 1% of the total amount of investment capital that Ethereum is trying to raise.  

If you go to a Conference where the entire majority of reporters have a dev background, you are basically looking at the very definition of a biased opinion and reporting.  Just because a small group of technology advanced individuals are excited about the possibility of the tech, doesn't actually mean equate a great investment.

Then you have the 99% of the general crypto population that are only interested in making a quick profit on this coin.  They are not particularly interested in this new coin/platform and don't really care about the technology and only if there will be enough ROI to justify an initial investment into the pre-sale.  Initially, there was a lot of hype on this coin that drew a lot of interest, but crypto investors cannot be duped.  They realize they are not getting into this investment at the ground floor level and with the amount of money/bitcoin that Ethereum is trying to raise before launch, there will have to be 100 million dollar market cap for them to see a profit.  Long-term is the only reason to invest.  There are few pump and dump scenarios that will work with this investment structure that Ethereum is proposing because all the initial "pump" profit is being taken out of the market and into Ethereum's pocket right from the beginning.

Long term I see a lot of risks involved with pre-sale investment.
1/ There is risk of immediate loss of equity once it hits an exchange.
2/ There is risk of dilution
3/ There is risk of the company dissolving or bankrupting (however small)
4/  There is risk of this becoming vaporware
5/  There is risk that it will be forked and cloned
6/  There is risk that there will be too many security holes
7/  There is risk that a newer and better technology with greater funding and transparency will enter the market in due time
8/  There is risk that the altcoin (or platform if you want to call it that) crypto market will crash in a few years
9/   There is a risk (and I personally feel strongly about this) that the price will be considerably lower once it hits an exchange and falls to what the market feels is an appropriate price for the amount of risk and dilution involved with the project.

Of course, I could be wrong and Ethereum totally sells out and there will be another 100 million worth of btc bid aftermarket.  But do you really think that crypto investors are dying to jump in to give anyone 100 million on vaporware on a diluted investment? ALL you have to look at is the forum boards and ignore the developers who are shilling for the product to succeed.  There is a huge outcry against the current investment scheme.  Why are people so vehemently against Ethereum's structure?  Because they feel it has a possibility to be an asset to the bitcoin community but not the way its currently structured.  

So in final words, whether you believe in the tech or not, all you have to ask yourself is this.  Would I be better off investing in the pre-sale or should I invest aftermarket?

There is absolutely only ONE reason you should buy into the pre-sale, if you believe that it will be so much oversold and the market will not feel that it's diluted to the point where there is another huge group of buyers willing to take it off your hands and xxx times a return on your investment right from the beginning of launch.

Now I submit to you a few simple reasons why you should wait until aftermarket to buy-in.

1/  You NEGATE any risk mentioned earlier in the post and you only have to consider risk/reward.  If I buy in pre-sale what risk do I take vs the reward I will have for taking that risk.  Do you think there is greater chance that the market price will be higher than lower from the pre-sale price?  And to what degree do you need to see Ethereum trade at to make this pre-sale investment worth it for you.
2/  Time value - What could have I done with this money invested in Ethereum that will be locked up from pre-sale until launch on a legitimate market.  During those two or three months, you could have that money invested in Bitcoin (which has a lot less downside and at the current level has a good chance of increasing in value) or a dozen new altcoins that will be launching that as you can see we are in the midst of a crypto coin boom.  How much money will you have lost by freezing your money up in Ethereum, when it could be actively invested in other more profitable ventures where the initial investment is not severely diluted?
3/  During the time you buy into the pre-sale (several months) and the time you are able to trade your ETH on an exchange, I guarantee you there will several new teams announcing a new platform or coin that will get much better press with a better investment structure.  You take the risk of obsolescence even before the coin launches.
4/ By buying into the coin pre-sale and making it a success you encourage Wall Street to take over the crypto coin market and in the future you may see an environment where every new coin launch will be diluted and structured in a way that only Wall Street will increase their millions and the RISK will all be burdened by the crypto community.  Ethereum will set a new precedent and if you think this will not happen, think again.  Miners and crypto investors will be locked out of the early "pump" profits while Wall Street makes millions and we will take all the RISK. The early pre-sale investors will essentially be the bagholders.
5/ Here is the most important reason to wait until it hits an exchange to buy into Ethereum, you NEGATE all the risk I mentioned before and plus you do not enable this kind of launch in the future.  There is a good chance that you will be able to buy it lower than the offering price of approx a dollar an ETH. and if the price rises a bit, you can still buy in at the pre-sale price or a little bit higher.  The only reason you should be buying this pre-sale is if you believe that there is another 100 million waiting in line to buy ETH and there is no risk involved.  You have absolutely nothing to lose by waiting and a lot at stake by buying and enabling this type of coin pre-sale launch.

Now, over the next few days I imagine Ethereum will hire a Marketing PR, they will hype and pump the tech and coin and gloss it over to make it look like they invented the wheel.  They will cast out all the doubters and call them "FUD."  Vitalik will come online and answer questions about the tech.  But I say to you forget about all that.  Don't get caught up in the tech, we all  know the tech has the potential to be amazing.  Look at the investment structure.  Dont let Vitalik use excuses like this is the best way to avoid "whales" from taking over the market.  That is so naive.  Think!!! Regardless of the tech, is it more beneficial to me, considering risk vs reward, to buy pre-sale or buy aftermarket?

If you choose pre-sale, then good luck, all I'm asking you is to forget the tech and the chatter from the devs and focus on the pros and con of the investment only.  Live long and prosper!!
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