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Author Topic: Bitcoin a fool's Gold Standard?  (Read 2424 times)
gabbo876
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January 29, 2014, 01:23:26 AM
 #1

Can anyone provide a strong rebutal to this article?

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/01/22/bitcoin-a-fools-gold-standard/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

For me the future of bitcoin doesn't involve it being the world's currency but it being a store of value - similar to gold. Gold is worth >$4trillion. If bitcoin were to capture 5% of it's market, it's value would be >$200billion. If anyone can soundly explain how bitcoin of limited supply would positively-act in a crisis, then I'll be convinced bitcoin should be the world's #1 currency. It's my understanding that during a crisis owners of a commodity with limited supply, tend to hoard, causing spending to stop and deflation to take place.

Look forward to the communities comments



Peace
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jballs
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January 29, 2014, 01:38:22 AM
 #2

I no longer believe that three credit card companies should earn 2-5% of every transaction in the world simply because they have internet.

It is a huge hidden tax on merchants and consumers. There need be no other reason than removing this parasite from the cash register to embrace bitcoin. It is implausible for many reasons that bitcoin will replace fiat.  It will allow people a choice.

I will choose bitcoin.
rix5
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January 29, 2014, 04:25:02 AM
 #3

that's why freicoin is the better choice for real economics  (5% per year just vanish from your wallet which makes it less attractive to hoard) . I guess people need to live through the deflation-thing once before they buy that coin or a similar one.
The solution is there already.

Check'em out here: http://freico.in/
empoweoqwj
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January 29, 2014, 04:27:31 AM
 #4

Can anyone provide a strong rebutal to this article?

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/01/22/bitcoin-a-fools-gold-standard/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

For me the future of bitcoin doesn't involve it being the world's currency but it being a store of value - similar to gold. Gold is worth >$4trillion. If bitcoin were to capture 5% of it's market, it's value would be >$200billion. If anyone can soundly explain how bitcoin of limited supply would positively-act in a crisis, then I'll be convinced bitcoin should be the world's #1 currency. It's my understanding that during a crisis owners of a commodity with limited supply, tend to hoard, causing spending to stop and deflation to take place.

Look forward to the communities comments



Peace

Look at how well "printing more money" does in a crisis. Its a get  out of jail free card for the politicians in power. They just pass the mounting debt onto the next generation. Happening in nearly every country on the planet. House of cards.
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January 29, 2014, 06:27:09 AM
 #5

Look at how well "printing more money" does in a crisis. Its a get  out of jail free card for the politicians in power. They just pass the mounting debt onto the next generation. Happening in nearly every country on the planet. House of cards.

If printing money in a crisis is get out of jail free card, that implies it works. It is of course very difficult to judge how things would have played out differently were the money system harder, but claiming it to be a house of cards--destined to fall--is begging the question and a logical fallacy. It's not like some alien entity owns government debt that will eventually enslave us all, people own that debt.

empoweoqwj
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January 29, 2014, 09:33:15 AM
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Look at how well "printing more money" does in a crisis. Its a get  out of jail free card for the politicians in power. They just pass the mounting debt onto the next generation. Happening in nearly every country on the planet. House of cards.

If printing money in a crisis is get out of jail free card, that implies it works. It is of course very difficult to judge how things would have played out differently were the money system harder, but claiming it to be a house of cards--destined to fall--is begging the question and a logical fallacy. It's not like some alien entity owns government debt that will eventually enslave us all, people own that debt.

What do you mean it works? Its just "passing the buck onto the next generation", credit ratings get downgraded, interest rates on debt go up, countries can't afford to pay back their debt, and they go bust. Its happening all over Europe. What's the size of the US debt. Its got too many zeros for me to count ...
LRCGROUP
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January 29, 2014, 11:16:36 AM
 #7

What's the size of the US debt. Its got too many zeros for me to count ...

I have something for you to give you an idea of the size of the debt

USA's Debt

Imagining the American debt-image is not an easy task...

The picture you know, it is a 100 dollar bill.



This famous and known everywhere 100 dollar bill will help us to represent the debt figuratively.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Hundred of these 100 dollar bills create this nice bundle worth $10,000



For $10,000 you can buy a small car or go on a nice vacation.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Hundred of these bundles give you $1,000,000 (one million).  Not as spectacular as some of us has probably thought but an enormous sum.



The most of us will never earn this much in our entire life.  The question 'Who wants to be a Millionaire' simply does not apply to the average person.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now it is going to get adventurous.  This is what $100,000,000 (one hundred million) looks like.



As you see $ 100 million still fit on a commercial Palette. In the foreground for comparison is the the $10,000 bundle
and the $1 million stack.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ten pallets then yield $1,000,000,000 (one billion), which no longer fits in your auto garage.



If you have not heard, if you should ever plan to rob a bank to steal a billion dollars, remember to bring a truck!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For $1,000,000,000,000 (one trillion) you would then need 1,000 trucks



Look closely because the pallets are stacked in a double layer to ensure a that they all fit on a football pitch.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Boeing 747-400 uses less space, which looks something like this:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now lets use altitude, because in relation to the Statue of Liberty this not a house, these are 15.000.000.000.000 $ (fifteen trillion) ...



The Boeing is unfortunately no longer visible...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now we want to tell you how high the debt actually is....

Attention, it is ... 114.500.000.000.000 $ (114.5 trillion!)
and it looks like this:



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A whole new perspective!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

David La Rue
Security & Trading Systems Specialist
(Bloomberg, Euclid, Eurex, Reuters, Summit, SWIFT, Xetra)
empoweoqwj
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January 29, 2014, 11:40:22 AM
 #8

a picture is worth a thousand words. In this case, much much  more ...
zagerfish
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January 29, 2014, 11:41:34 AM
 #9

The article is wrong because it merely explains the problems an economy would face if bitcoin replaced fiat.

Bitcoin is not a replacement for fiat, it's a niche alternative.  

For example, loans are basically impossible with a deflationary currency like bitcoin. In an economy where bitcoin were the only currency, loans would have to be done via some other method, or bitcoins would have to be redesigned to be either non-deflationary or with only minor deflation.

As for deflationary depression spirals, I believe these were often caused by the Fed mismanaging the money supply. Now it's true there were issues in the 1800s before the Fed, but I believe other/newer mechanisms could be invoked during a recession/depression to stimulate the economy rather than expanding the money supply.

get 420 with bitcoins at zeltasgarden.com
hilariousandco
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January 29, 2014, 11:53:55 AM
 #10

that's why freicoin is the better choice for real economics  (5% per year just vanish from your wallet which makes it less attractive to hoard) . I guess people need to live through the deflation-thing once before they buy that coin or a similar one.
The solution is there already.

Check'em out here: http://freico.in/

If people want to save/hoard their money they should be free to do so without having money vanish. Where does the 5% go?

Lethn
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January 29, 2014, 12:08:42 PM
 #11

Quote

For example, loans are basically impossible with a deflationary currency like bitcoin. In an economy where bitcoin were the only currency, loans would have to be done via some other method, or bitcoins would have to be redesigned to be either non-deflationary or with only minor deflation.  

That's all a good thing, the whole point of a deflationary currency is that it's supposed to be extremely difficult to borrow vast amounts of cash and prevents any possibility of hyperinflation or reckless spending at the expense of others. If we adopt a world deflationary currency or indeed several deflationary currencies you would not ever see the kind of borrowing that you see countries like the U.S committing too without the permission of taxpayers. One of the whole reasons paper money was invented was because it was far easier to move around and cheat the system compared to Gold/Silver, sometimes central banks are even doing this while keeping all the precious metals for themselves.

People who ignore basic mathematics terrify me more than nuclear bombs.
The_Gloomfrost
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January 29, 2014, 07:40:23 PM
 #12

I'd just like to add that the 2008 'crisis' would not have happened at all if we were using bitcoin! So there's no sense saying 'bitcoin can't deal with this' because it can full on prevent it in the first place.

That said, I also don't think bitcoin should REPLACE fiat, but a max supply of money may be a good idea - even if it's fiat. Stop the printing presses!

Lastly, printing money DOES have advantages and does spur growth and assuming there is trust in the currency, does add value to the system. HOWEVER, it is NOT sustainable in practice (as the last 80 years or so has shown us). That is the problem. Works in theory, doesn't work in practice. Bitcoin is much more strict, and our lives would probably be less wealthy/enriched by using it (unfortunately), however, they would be more consistent and we wouldn't have 2008-styled crises happening.
rix5
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January 29, 2014, 07:47:24 PM
 #13

that's why freicoin is the better choice for real economics  (5% per year just vanish from your wallet which makes it less attractive to hoard) . I guess people need to live through the deflation-thing once before they buy that coin or a similar one.
The solution is there already.

Check'em out here: http://freico.in/

If people want to save/hoard their money they should be free to do so without having money vanish. Where does the 5% go?

those are destroid/removed from the network ... not good for saving but good for spending and thus driving economics contrary to a currency that everybody is not spending today but saving for another day because it will deflate. I think one could have use for both kinds of currency. If you wanted to drive all the economy on btc only it would fail because people would cut back on consuming a lot since they think they can consume more later for the same btc. btc is fine for saving like gold is, but for driving an economy on it it is not workable i think. For enonomy to thrive money needs to move around.
I personally think freicoin is massively under value right now since that would be the kind of coin you drive a succesfull economy on. A slight inflation is good for the money-flow.
jballs
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January 29, 2014, 08:12:13 PM
 #14

that's why freicoin is the better choice for real economics  (5% per year just vanish from your wallet which makes it less attractive to hoard) . I guess people need to live through the deflation-thing once before they buy that coin or a similar one.
The solution is there already.

Check'em out here: http://freico.in/

If people want to save/hoard their money they should be free to do so without having money vanish. Where does the 5% go?

those are destroid/removed from the network ... not good for saving but good for spending and thus driving economics contrary to a currency that everybody is not spending today but saving for another day because it will deflate. I think one could have use for both kinds of currency. If you wanted to drive all the economy on btc only it would fail because people would cut back on consuming a lot since they think they can consume more later for the same btc. btc is fine for saving like gold is, but for driving an economy on it it is not workable i think. For enonomy to thrive money needs to move around.
I personally think freicoin is massively under value right now since that would be the kind of coin you drive a succesfull economy on. A slight inflation is good for the money-flow.

According to the website, the 5% a year goes to the miners.

My take on the whole freicoin is an altruistic looking economic shambles based on flimsy rationale. Well intentioned or not I can't really tell, probably so but I wouldn't put a nickel towards it, sorry.
jballs
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January 29, 2014, 08:20:03 PM
 #15

What's the size of the US debt. Its got too many zeros for me to count ...

I have something for you to give you an idea of the size of the debt

USA's Debt

Imagining the American debt-image is not an easy task...

The picture you know, it is a 100 dollar bill.



This famous and known everywhere 100 dollar bill will help us to represent the debt figuratively.




----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A whole new perspective!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Those are from demonocracy.org a cool site for sure.

But consider that all that money is owed to someone. That's a lot of wealth. Of course this is just a shell game in the end. The debt was invented, nobody "had" all that money to lend out, they just invented it because they have laws written to say they are "creditors".

Take Europe... Take Greece for example. Ten years ago the German and French banks open up the spigot and say "Hey borrow all you want at 4%"

Well common delusion holds that the Greeks borrowed money that these banks had. This is mostly untrue. Because it was sovereign debt, the banks credited Greece with "zero capital allocation". Or in other words they just entered a debt on a ledger and handed Greece newly printed Euros from the ether.

So 10 years go by, 40% of the principal has been paid as interest to the banks, but Greece still owes 100% of the principal because that is the game.

But there was no money borrowed from some wealth holder to lend to Greece. It was conjured for the sole purpose of lending to Greece.

Of course they can never pay it back, I mean the whole world can never pay back more money than the whole world has. This is what the public must wake up to, and realize the banks aren't "owed" jack shit. They have a lot of explaining to do, they owe us a definitive reason we should let them hold their license to steal if they are not furthering human progress (which at this point it is hard to argue that they are doing anything but enriching themselves at the expense of humanity).

Don't get caught up in the illusion of debt, it is just that, it is a rigged game. To whom is what owed... is the ultimate  question of the 21st century.
yatsey87
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January 29, 2014, 09:22:10 PM
 #16

What's the size of the US debt. Its got too many zeros for me to count ...

I have something for you to give you an idea of the size of the debt

USA's Debt

Imagining the American debt-image is not an easy task...

The picture you know, it is a 100 dollar bill.



This famous and known everywhere 100 dollar bill will help us to represent the debt figuratively.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Hundred of these 100 dollar bills create this nice bundle worth $10,000



For $10,000 you can buy a small car or go on a nice vacation.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Hundred of these bundles give you $1,000,000 (one million).  Not as spectacular as some of us has probably thought but an enormous sum.



The most of us will never earn this much in our entire life.  The question 'Who wants to be a Millionaire' simply does not apply to the average person.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now it is going to get adventurous.  This is what $100,000,000 (one hundred million) looks like.



As you see $ 100 million still fit on a commercial Palette. In the foreground for comparison is the the $10,000 bundle
and the $1 million stack.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ten pallets then yield $1,000,000,000 (one billion), which no longer fits in your auto garage.



If you have not heard, if you should ever plan to rob a bank to steal a billion dollars, remember to bring a truck!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For $1,000,000,000,000 (one trillion) you would then need 1,000 trucks



Look closely because the pallets are stacked in a double layer to ensure a that they all fit on a football pitch.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Boeing 747-400 uses less space, which looks something like this:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now lets use altitude, because in relation to the Statue of Liberty this not a house, these are 15.000.000.000.000 $ (fifteen trillion) ...



The Boeing is unfortunately no longer visible...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now we want to tell you how high the debt actually is....

Attention, it is ... 114.500.000.000.000 $ (114.5 trillion!)
and it looks like this:



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A whole new perspective!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyone got a link to a webpage or a big image with this all on? It's crazy. Would love to share it with people.
Ix
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January 29, 2014, 10:36:43 PM
 #17

What do you mean it works? Its just "passing the buck onto the next generation", credit ratings get downgraded, interest rates on debt go up, countries can't afford to pay back their debt, and they go bust. Its happening all over Europe. What's the size of the US debt. Its got too many zeros for me to count ...

It "gets us out of jail" aka it works. I was commenting on the expression you used. Credit rating is a pretty silly argument since these are the same companies that rated completely insolvent companies as AAA. As far as European countries not being able to pay back their debts, they voluntarily gave up monetary sovereignty, the US has not. I was too young at the time to be that interested in the advent of the Euro, and not European enough to deeply learn the reasoning and history behind it, but it certainly seems like hindsight and foresight should have been 20/20 on that one. Any country that runs a trade deficit consistently is going to go bankrupt under the Euro. It is an inevitability unless they get bailed out.

As far as the US debt, again the US has a sovereign money supply and it cannot go bankrupt except by choice. All a high Debt:GDP ratio means is that the government is far too bloated for the peoples' good.

jballs
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January 29, 2014, 10:42:37 PM
 #18


source


http://demonocracy.info
yatsey87
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January 29, 2014, 10:47:08 PM
 #19


Thanks. Looks like a great site. Just watching the video of the above images now.
BADecker
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January 29, 2014, 10:48:08 PM
 #20

What's the size of the US debt. Its got too many zeros for me to count ...

I have something for you to give you an idea of the size of the debt

USA's Debt

Imagining the American debt-image is not an easy task...

The picture you know, it is a 100 dollar bill.



This famous and known everywhere 100 dollar bill will help us to represent the debt figuratively.




----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A whole new perspective!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Those are from demonocracy.org a cool site for sure.

But consider that all that money is owed to someone. That's a lot of wealth. Of course this is just a shell game in the end. The debt was invented, nobody "had" all that money to lend out, they just invented it because they have laws written to say they are "creditors".

Take Europe... Take Greece for example. Ten years ago the German and French banks open up the spigot and say "Hey borrow all you want at 4%"

Well common delusion holds that the Greeks borrowed money that these banks had. This is mostly untrue. Because it was sovereign debt, the banks credited Greece with "zero capital allocation". Or in other words they just entered a debt on a ledger and handed Greece newly printed Euros from the ether.

So 10 years go by, 40% of the principal has been paid as interest to the banks, but Greece still owes 100% of the principal because that is the game.

But there was no money borrowed from some wealth holder to lend to Greece. It was conjured for the sole purpose of lending to Greece.

Of course they can never pay it back, I mean the whole world can never pay back more money than the whole world has. This is what the public must wake up to, and realize the banks aren't "owed" jack shit. They have a lot of explaining to do, they owe us a definitive reason we should let them hold their license to steal if they are not furthering human progress (which at this point it is hard to argue that they are doing anything but enriching themselves at the expense of humanity).

Don't get caught up in the illusion of debt, it is just that, it is a rigged game. To whom is what owed... is the ultimate  question of the 21st century.

And this is exactly the thing that has happened in the United States, and is happening all over the world where the bankers have extended their power. There is no loan. There is no debt. There are only lies to try to keep people under control. Now that you know that your parents and grand-parents never borrowed any money when they thought they did, how do you feel? We all got taken.

Bitcoin has a chance of changing all that for us, if we wake up!

Smiley

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