Throw Charlie under the bus and wash your hands clean of your biggest advocate

[genjix]

http://www.coindesk.com/charlie-shrem-resigns-bitcoin-foundation-silk-road-arrest/

Charlie was one of the biggest advocates and architects of placating to power structures in order to curry favour.

Now he has been neutralised and his friends wash their hands of him.

Naturally this is painted in terms of his responsibility and guilt.

This obsession with image affects how Bitcoin develops as a free market tool. Bitcoin's interest is advanced in different directions depending on the groups controlling it. If corporates and people working with central power dictate development, then satoshi's vision will evolve into CorpCoin. Software is art. Technology is never neutral. All technical decisions involve tradeoffs and the best path isn't always clear. It's easy to become gradually corrupted if you ignore your principles and willingly sacrifice your integrity.

[1713485636]

1713485636

[BTCisthefuture]

Quite normal and expected to distance yourself from someone if they are being tried for some pretty serious crimes. Has little to do with being "friends" , I'm sure members of the foundation are still friends with him on varying levels. It's true though that you can't have a public face whose as a spokesperson for bitcoin who is also on trial for laundering money to drug dealers

[hanwong]

As with many people who break the law, Charlie might have thought it right to break the law. Few criminals are sociopaths. Most feel what they are doing is right. If this is the case, and from what I've read about Charlie and what I know of the libertarian side of bitcoin, I am surprised there aren't more people coming to his defense. Where are the people saying "who did he really hurt?" "the war on drugs is bs and Charlie was only providing his service to non-criminal drug dealers." OR are we more concerned about bitcoin going to $10,000 than seeing justice for a young man that was universally liked and respected in the bitcoin world prior to Jan 27, 2014?

[Enkel]

I would think that Charlie voluntarily distanced himself from the foundation to prevent issues for them. Also, he is on house arrest, so isn't really able to travel at this point in time.

[BTCisthefuture]

As with many people who break the law, Charlie might have thought it right to break the law. Few criminals are sociopaths. Most feel what they are doing is right. If this is the case, and from what I've read about Charlie and what I know of the libertarian side of bitcoin, I am surprised there aren't more people coming to his defense. Where are the people saying "who did he really hurt?" "the war on drugs is bs and Charlie was only providing his service to non-criminal drug dealers." OR are we more concerned about bitcoin going to $10,000 than seeing justice for a young man that was universally liked and respected in the bitcoin world prior to Jan 27, 2014?

I'm a huge advocate against the war on drugs.... I've done quite a bit of lobbying/political efforts in regards trying to get marijuana legalized since about 1996.   So yes I agree it's a shame to see people getting arrested for things like this.

With that said , regardless of what you think about the law you have to realize that it's the law and until the law changes if you do something like charlie was doing you can and most likely will to prison if caught. If you don't like a law then work to get the laws changed,  don't break it on a large enough scale where you can do a long time in prison and then complain that it's unfair.

I don't know him personally and I have no ill feelings toward him and I wish him the best of luck. With that said he's a smart enough guy that he's knows the gamble he was taking and it appears he lost that gamble 

[billyjoeallen]

I think he's innocent until proven guilty. I also think he is charged with something that shouldn't be a crime. But I also think that a person in that position either needs to be squeeky clean or a really smart criminal and apparently he is neither. I hope he gets off if he's innocent. I hope he gets off if he's guilty, but I'm not on the jury, so what I think is worth what you paid for it. nothing.

[crazy_rabbit]

Yeah, I get your point, but considering you openly supported assassinating people that that might blow the cover on a drug cartel boss, your moral authority is shaky at best.

I have no idea about Charlie's guilt or innocence. I presume innocent till a court says otherwise. But Bitcoin's image problem currently is a small group of criminals in the flock of innovators.

The greatest thing the criminal innovators in bitcoin could do at this point, is to step away and let a new generation take over.


EDIT: Source for reference.

Hero's hire people to kill people?

The guy was threatening to release the info for 8000 people. Those people would have had their lives ruined by LE. If I was at risk of 10+ years in jail for a victimless crime because of the deliberate actions of an asshole motivated by money, then I would not mind someone assassinating that person.

But it's not so morally easy since the guy had kids, and drug debts. But he was blackmailing with the threat of many people's lives at stake.

[TheButterZone]

The greatest thing the criminal innovators in bitcoin could do at this point, is to step away and let a new generation take over.

So they can be arrested for victimless "crimes" too? This is a sick version of Whack-A-Mole; it doesn't matter which of us are popping up at any time or in any sequence, we're all moles, and the whacker is a Terminator.

Future Bitcoin services need to be run as if they are illegal enterprises, like Silk Road, even if what they are doing is apparently legal.

Why:

• Laws change.
• Regulations are vague and open-ended, and it's probably impossible to operate a business without accidentally violating one.
• Even if you do manage to operate without violating any rule law enforcement agencies do not always limit themselves to the letter of the law when deciding to begin an enforcement action.
• Governments are not the only threats to a successful business. Non-governmental organized crime is almost equally capable of extortion.

The solution is to run all services in the darknet, not tied to any physical location or legal jurisdiction, and without any explicit connection to a real-life identity.

In order to reduce the risk of the operator running away with all the coins customers should start using Bitcoin like it was intended and only get involved with zero-trust business models instead of giving their money to companies that blindly emulate old paradigms.

[crazy_rabbit]

The greatest thing the criminal innovators in bitcoin could do at this point, is to step away and let a new generation take over.

So they can be arrested for victimless "crimes" too? This is a sick version of Whack-A-Mole; it doesn't matter which of us are popping up at any time or in any sequence, we're all moles, and the whacker is a Terminator.

Murder for hire is not a 'victimless' crime. Nor is money laundering by and large.

Of course the government CAN go after individuals who do little harm and ignore the ones that do great harm. It's not that they are perfect, but you do have to follow the law. If you want to change it, change it.

"So they can be arrested for victimless "crimes" too?" - No, if you committed a crime, get out of the limelight where a) you will draw more scrutiny to yourself b) your inevitable demise will bring down the image of bitcoin with you c) you should probably move to some country where you won't find yourself extradited by surprise years down the road.

[hilariousandco]

Quite normal and expected to distance yourself from someone if they are being tried for some pretty serious crimes. Has little to do with being "friends" , I'm sure members of the foundation are still friends with him on varying levels. It's true though that you can't have a public face whose as a spokesperson for bitcoin who is also on trial for laundering money to drug dealers

Yeah, they can't really be seen to be associated with this regardless of guilt or not. The accusation is enough to tar the whole foundation.

[runam0k]

He threw himself under a bus.

[seriouscoin]

Guys, please tell me this thread is a joke right? RIGHT? 

cause my faith of being a member of a relatively smart community is fading.....

"victimless crime" ...such joke 

[whtchocla7e]

http://www.coindesk.com/charlie-shrem-resigns-bitcoin-foundation-silk-road-arrest/

Charlie was one of the biggest advocates and architects of placating to power structures in order to curry favour.

Keyword 'WAS'.

And even that is questionable. Maybe he was good at hiding his real motives and agendas. It doesn't matter anymore.

[EvilPanda]

This reminds me of DPR case when people started making topics to glorify him, gather money for his bail and so on.
These people knew what they were doing, they are not children playing with matches, but intelligent adults who built a prospering drug business. They wanted to make big money and got caught.
I'm not by any means a law supporter, but he knew the risk and took it, that's why I don't pity him.

[GrapeApe]

Fully Informed Jury Association.
http://fija.org/

+1

The Judges don't like it and will tell you differently but the first duty of a Juror is to ask themselves "Do I agree with the law they have been charged with breaking?"

You have so much more power as a juror than you ever will voting for politicians....

All it takes is one to hang a jury and 3 for an acquittal. Here in Texas...

[cbeast]

"Money laundering" is only possible because of fiat currencies. Paper money is the gateway to violent crimes. What Charlie did was save lives. Think of the children!

[coinrevo]

It's easy to become gradually corrupted if you ignore your principles and willingly sacrifice your integrity.

and what are those principles? there is actually little advancement in any direction as far as I can tell.

[QuestionAuthority]

I see most of the members of this forum as self serving capitalists posing as radical anarchists. At least, that's the arguments I see when someone mentions government here. Everyone wants the government to fuck off while they diligently work to increase Bitcoins exchange rate to government fiat. No member of this forum should be against Yankee because he ignored and attempted to subvert the legal system, ignored government control and preached the gospel of Bitcoin continuously to increase adoption. He did anything necessary to increase his personal wealth up to and including committing a felony. Shouldn't that make him the most respected Bitcoiner here?

[yatsey87]

I see most of the members of this forum as self serving capitalists posing as radical anarchists. At least, that's the arguments I see when someone mentions government here. Everyone wants the government to fuck off while they diligently work to increase Bitcoins exchange rate to government fiat. No member of this forum should be against Yankee because he ignored and attempted to subvert the legal system, ignored government control and preached the gospel of Bitcoin continuously to increase adoption. He did anything necessary to increase his personal wealth up to and including committing a felony. Shouldn't that make him the most respected Bitcoiner here?

As with a lot of anarchists they tend to be all mouth and are essentially greedy capitalists who are just angry that they don't have more money to spend on crap. They claim to hate taxes and governments but still hypocritically pay their way.

[QuestionAuthority]

I see most of the members of this forum as self serving capitalists posing as radical anarchists. At least, that's the arguments I see when someone mentions government here. Everyone wants the government to fuck off while they diligently work to increase Bitcoins exchange rate to government fiat. No member of this forum should be against Yankee because he ignored and attempted to subvert the legal system, ignored government control and preached the gospel of Bitcoin continuously to increase adoption. He did anything necessary to increase his personal wealth up to and including committing a felony. Shouldn't that make him the most respected Bitcoiner here?

As with a lot of anarchists they tend to be all mouth and are essentially greedy capitalists who are just angry that they don't have more money to spend on crap. They claim to hate taxes and governments but still hypocritically pay their way.

Very nice! Someone actually got it.

[Honeypot]

I see most of the members of this forum as self serving capitalists posing as radical anarchists. At least, that's the arguments I see when someone mentions government here. Everyone wants the government to fuck off while they diligently work to increase Bitcoins exchange rate to government fiat. No member of this forum should be against Yankee because he ignored and attempted to subvert the legal system, ignored government control and preached the gospel of Bitcoin continuously to increase adoption. He did anything necessary to increase his personal wealth up to and including committing a felony. Shouldn't that make him the most respected Bitcoiner here?

As with a lot of anarchists they tend to be all mouth and are essentially greedy capitalists who are just angry that they don't have more money to spend on crap. They claim to hate taxes and governments but still hypocritically pay their way.

Very nice! Someone actually got it.

I never fails to amuse me how some fools act out the moral high horse (obviously too weak to follow through) on internet.

'QuestionAuthority' LOL christ

[QuestionAuthority]

I see most of the members of this forum as self serving capitalists posing as radical anarchists. At least, that's the arguments I see when someone mentions government here. Everyone wants the government to fuck off while they diligently work to increase Bitcoins exchange rate to government fiat. No member of this forum should be against Yankee because he ignored and attempted to subvert the legal system, ignored government control and preached the gospel of Bitcoin continuously to increase adoption. He did anything necessary to increase his personal wealth up to and including committing a felony. Shouldn't that make him the most respected Bitcoiner here?

As with a lot of anarchists they tend to be all mouth and are essentially greedy capitalists who are just angry that they don't have more money to spend on crap. They claim to hate taxes and governments but still hypocritically pay their way.

Very nice! Someone actually got it.

I never fails to amuse me how some fools act out the moral high horse (obviously too weak to follow through) on internet.

'QuestionAuthority' LOL christ

And there's always going to be someone that doesn't get it. Sad.

[yatsey87]

I see most of the members of this forum as self serving capitalists posing as radical anarchists. At least, that's the arguments I see when someone mentions government here. Everyone wants the government to fuck off while they diligently work to increase Bitcoins exchange rate to government fiat. No member of this forum should be against Yankee because he ignored and attempted to subvert the legal system, ignored government control and preached the gospel of Bitcoin continuously to increase adoption. He did anything necessary to increase his personal wealth up to and including committing a felony. Shouldn't that make him the most respected Bitcoiner here?

As with a lot of anarchists they tend to be all mouth and are essentially greedy capitalists who are just angry that they don't have more money to spend on crap. They claim to hate taxes and governments but still hypocritically pay their way.

Very nice! Someone actually got it.

I never fails to amuse me how some fools act out the moral high horse (obviously too weak to follow through) on internet.

You seem to live your entire life on the internet looking at your stats. Do you actually sleep or do you just troll and deal with crapcoins 24/7?

[tvbcof]

I see most of the members of this forum as self serving capitalists posing as radical anarchists. At least, that's the arguments I see when someone mentions government here. Everyone wants the government to fuck off while they diligently work to increase Bitcoins exchange rate to government fiat. No member of this forum should be against Yankee because he ignored and attempted to subvert the legal system, ignored government control and preached the gospel of Bitcoin continuously to increase adoption. He did anything necessary to increase his personal wealth up to and including committing a felony. Shouldn't that make him the most respected Bitcoiner here?

As with a lot of anarchists they tend to be all mouth and are essentially greedy capitalists who are just angry that they don't have more money to spend on crap. They claim to hate taxes and governments but still hypocritically pay their way.

I'd be more inclined to make that assertion about the Libertarians here than about the Anarchists.  Most of the more consistent here (in terms of ravings at least) seem to be drawn from the latter pool.

Back OT, Shrem was at least straight-up in the interview when he claimed that he didn't get into the Libertarian or political stuff that much.  So it's hard to fault him for being terribly hypocritical in either his (poorly executed) games within the mainstream financial system or his activities as part of the Bitcoin Foundation.

[QuestionAuthority]

I see most of the members of this forum as self serving capitalists posing as radical anarchists. At least, that's the arguments I see when someone mentions government here. Everyone wants the government to fuck off while they diligently work to increase Bitcoins exchange rate to government fiat. No member of this forum should be against Yankee because he ignored and attempted to subvert the legal system, ignored government control and preached the gospel of Bitcoin continuously to increase adoption. He did anything necessary to increase his personal wealth up to and including committing a felony. Shouldn't that make him the most respected Bitcoiner here?

As with a lot of anarchists they tend to be all mouth and are essentially greedy capitalists who are just angry that they don't have more money to spend on crap. They claim to hate taxes and governments but still hypocritically pay their way.

Very nice! Someone actually got it.

I never fails to amuse me how some fools act out the moral high horse (obviously too weak to follow through) on internet.

You seem to live your entire life on the internet looking at your stats. Do you actually sleep or do you just troll and deal with crapcoins 24/7?

Yeah, he's just a stupid troll. I've talked to Charlie in person a couple of times. His drive, determination and love for Bitcoin were unquestionable. What he allegedly did was nothing short of the mindset of this forum. Almost every thread I have read here for two years preaches the same theme of "fuck the government Bitcoin will change the world". Well that's what Charlie did so you can't hate him for it. He should have been more discrete in his subversion but hindsight is 20-20.

[Honeypot]

'Doesn't get it'

Everyone likes to feel smart. Especially the dumb ones

[TheButterZone]

The greatest thing the criminal innovators in bitcoin could do at this point, is to step away and let a new generation take over.

So they can be arrested for victimless "crimes" too? This is a sick version of Whack-A-Mole; it doesn't matter which of us are popping up at any time or in any sequence, we're all moles, and the whacker is a Terminator.

Murder for hire is not a 'victimless' crime.

More guilt by association? This topic is about Charlie Shrem, who isn't alleged to have committed/conspired to murder for hire. Even if you're referring to all the people using the "Dread Pirate Roberts" pseudonym (including government agents, who physically controlled the SR servers for a considerable length of time)...

There was nothing innovative about Silk Road - online forums for victimless and victimful crimes for $ have existed for decades. One of which I would argue is craigslist (founded 1995, so 20th anniv next year), unless you want to pretend that every single criminal poster on there who's never stopped is just an undercover cop.

[genjix]

It's not about Charlie did this or that. It's how quickly everyone distances themselves. It's like we are so concerned with how we look, rather than the substance of who we are. It's not like we suddenly discovered he's a paedophile. There's been some serious accusations levelled against this person based on their work with Bitcoin. Maybe he got greedy and saw an opportunity for more profit. But the point is that where is the solidarity? I don't see a huge injustice or big immorality here. I see a profiteer who did something with little harm (or even positive effect).

What I do see, is an obsession with image. Yesterday he was a darling. Today he's a pariah. Would you treat someone you know and trust this way? Would you publically out them and distance yourself from someone you believe to be morally upstanding in the name of preserving your image? Or would you show them solidarity, and stand with them as a friend?

Just because it's corporates in suits, doesn't excuse their actions. Even if you could see it happening. That you expect it to happen is a sad reflection of the world we live in. Flip flopping on friends and allies is sociopath behaviour.

[MPOE-PR]

Oh look, Bitcoin's biggest fucktard has opinions to share.

GET LOST TAAKI. You're still the shit stain on Bitcoin's discarded old suit.

[mikegogulski]

/praying here that Mircea Popescu never pulls his finger out of his ass... we'll not survive the smell.

[MPOE-PR]

/praying here that Mircea Popescu never pulls his finger out of his ass... we'll not survive the smell.

Dude, you keep inserting yourself in conversations that in no conceivable manner include you with this whiny bullshit. I get it, MP publicly humiliated you at some past point. Get over it, he does this to a dozen fucktards a day, you're not special. Moreover, he probably forgot all about you and your idiocy within the week, what the fuck are you still carrying your bullshit months later for?

Learn from it, be less of a fuckwit next time. What do you imagine, that if you whine enough reality somehow changes for you or what is it exactly? Kids today I swear....

[russokai]

People are funny (and simpletons) when they say that just because someone committed a "crime" (an illegal act) that they should be prosecuted and punished.

At one time it was a crime for women to vote and black people to sit where they wanted on the bus and it' still a crime in most places to smoke a joint or have consensual sex with money involved, etc.  

And his friends didn't "throw him under the bus".  They are being pragmatic and trying to do what is best for themselves and for bitcoin.  And of course anyone who speaks up will be the next target of the gov't stormtroopers.

Yes he may or may not have done something that was illegal, but most likley not immoral, so I feel bad for the dude and I'm sure his friends do too.  I feel bad for DPR as well and anyone else locked up for victimless crimes, but just the world we live in.

[TheButterZone]

But, but, it's been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that DPR was at all times Ross Ulbricht, and nobody could have possibly stolen his identity or been in control of the SR servers in order to set up that peacenik for hiring multiple murders! :p

[tvbcof]

Well he was one of the leading reasons why i thought the foundation was fail.

That foundation is full of fail...

The Bitcoin Foundation was 'full of fail' to me for a bunch of reasons, but none of them was Charlie.  I never paid much attention to him at all until this incident.  Before that he was mostly just a funny-looking dude who seemed like a poser and had one of the earlier exchange thingies.  I was, of course, aware that he was involved in the Bitcoin Foundation somewhere and it obviously did nothing to elevate his stature.

Hey, I just got an idea for a new conspiracy theory!  Lets say Charlie was planning this all out from the beginning with a secret banker cabal.  He's supposed to be a 'Rothchild' after all.  Maybe he deliberately avoided secure communications to entrap people.  Hmmm...It's all mighty suspicious...

[MPOE-PR]

And of course anyone who speaks up will be the next target of the gov't stormtroopers.

As part of its ongoing efforts to blablabla and all that, MPEx is happy to offer interested users the following arrangement: any forum participant with a post count of at least 100 who changes their signature to

BTC doesn't care about the SEC. MPEx rules!

will receive his post count * 0.001 BTC at the end of one month, provided he doesn't switch his signature in the meanwhile.

Please post here with your new signature so we can have dates. Include payment addy in that post.

And last but definitely not least: Bitcoin is here to end government. Not any particular one, just absolutely each and every last one of them. To work!

########################

THIS OFFER IS NOW CLOSED

########################

Will not lock the thread, but no further offers accepted past post #28. Thanks all, and will update with payments.

Note the 2012 date on that.

[17:55:38] shareholder2 you don’t stand a chance against mpex
[17:55:41] shareholder3_ makes sense
[17:55:44] shareholder2 with its low overhead
[17:56:01] da2ce796 shareholder2 we will be competing in a completely
differnt market to mpex
[17:56:04] shareholder2 IF it is even possible to do legally
[17:56:07] shareholder4 shareholder2: actually it’a dofferent target
[17:56:19] shareholder4 if it’s not wishful thinking
[17:56:20] da2ce796 as in, mpex will stop being our compittion.
[17:56:26] shareholder1 mpex will be classified as money launderers and
terrorists
[17:56:26] shareholder2 really? satoshidice and bitvps look pretty legit
to me
[17:56:30] shareholder2 bitvps even hosts GLBSE
[17:56:31] ColdHardMetal this is irrlevant at this point.
[17:56:39] shareholder3_ agree with da2ce7, its a different, larger market
the new GLBSE would operate in

(From The stockexchange shareholders on welfare)

Note the 2012 date on that, too. Geddit?

Read here, and understand it this time.

But, but, it's been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that DPR was at all times Ross Ulbricht, and nobody could have possibly stolen his identity or been in control of the SR servers in order to set up that peacenik for hiring multiple murders! :p

Is your source what you've read on Trilema back in Oct?

[practicaldreamer]

What I do see, is an obsession with image. Yesterday he was a darling. Today he's a pariah. Would you treat someone you know and trust this way? Would you publically out them and distance yourself from someone you believe to be morally upstanding in the name of preserving your image? Or would you show them solidarity, and stand with them as a friend?

Slightly off topic - but there's an actor in the UK currently on trial for historic sex offences (the guy who plays Ken Barlow on Coronation Street) - I don't know wether the guy is guilty or not and have no feelings about the case one way or the other.
   The only reason I mention it is that I noticed that when the mass media were filming him walking up to the court house he was flanked by his two sons and his daughter. His two sons are also actors whose public profiles you would expect to be of importance to them. Yet they wanted to be seen to be supporting their father - and this is greatly to their credit I would say regardless of the eventual verdict on their Dad. I thought that it was impressive - on their part that is, his children. The loyalty was impressive I mean.

[BittBurger]

If corporates and people working with central power dictate development, then satoshi's vision will evolve into CorpCoin.

Exactly.  Which is why no "single person" or "single organization" (Bitcoin Foundation) should be the "face" of Bitcoin.  Ever.
Bitcoin was created for the very opposite purpose.  Its the complete removal of trust in any specific party.  
The only "representative" bitcoin needs, is math.
Human beings will continue to "corrupt".  There will always be someone to arrest.

"fuck the government Bitcoin will change the world". Well that's what Charlie did so you can't hate him for it. He should have been more discrete in his subversion but hindsight is 20-20.

So you're saying thats why he "really" got arrested?   They're mad at him? Seems like a stretch.
Doesn't matter anyways.  Bitcoin has nothing to do with Shrem, or Bitcoin Foundation, or Dred Pirate Roberts.
Bitcoin has nothing to do with faces or names.  Its Math.  The rest is a carnival, and irrelevant.
Next time voices should all equally be heard in the crowd.  Nobody on stage.
People on stage get arrested.   Satoshi was smart to dissolve himself into nothingness.

[odolvlobo]

I don't think anyone threw him under the bus -- I think he walked in front of it.

[seriouscoin]

I don't think anyone threw him under the bus -- I think he walked in front of it.

And did a Harleem shake at the same time. Living large yo!

[EskimoBob]

This is amazing, how fast you guys can turn every f'n thread in this forum to a off topic and utterly pointless blabbering.
Truly amazing.
Carry on and keep typing nonsense to that "Post reply" box on your screen. Faster!