bitcoin transaction

[Lox500]

I have made a bitcoin transaction and took 1 hour to be validated ! This is too much ! Why takes time for a simple transaction ? Why I must pay a fee ? Who take the fee ? A lot o people tell that bitcoin transaction its free and easy but I do not believe it now. Takes a lot of time and its not reliable .
Probably in the future will be more safe and fast.

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[MakeBelieve]

I have made a bitcoin transaction and took 1 hour to be validated ! This is too much ! Why takes time for a simple transaction ? Why I must pay a fee ? Who take the fee ? A lot o people tell that bitcoin transaction its free and easy but I do not believe it now. Takes a lot of time and its not reliable .
Probably in the future will be more safe and fast.

You pay a fee to the miners.

[somenormalguy]

Miners that secure the network get the fee. If you compare the fees of other payment processors, it's not so bad.

[Lox500]

the fee its not big but must be free

[rikkie]

How much fee do you have to pay for a transaction of bitcoin? Is this for every amount (very small, ...) the same? Where can you find how much the fee is?

[Lox500]

and who check the transactions? why they need 1 hour to approve the transaction ? this is strange and probably somebody supervise all activity .

[Kiki112]

and who check the transactions? why they need 1 hour to approve the transaction ? this is strange and probably somebody supervise all activity .

you have to wait for miners to confirm it..

the smaller the fee the longer it takes

[ZephramC]

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees

[yatsey87]

the fee its not big but must be free

You don't have to pay a fee. And the money is sent almost instantly, you just need to wait for full confirmations to spends it.

[cp1]

A lot o people tell that bitcoin transaction its free and easy but I do not believe it now.

It's not free or easy, they were lying.

[ZephramC]

the fee its not big but must be free

You don't have to pay a fee. And the money is sent almost instantly, you just need to wait for full confirmations to spends it.

Well. There are two levels to this problem.
1) With low fee you risk that miners won't include your transaction into new block for some time. This tradeoff between speed and cost is all right with me and it is a subject to competition of mining pools.
2) For some transactions you risk that reference client (that is majority of Bitcoin network) won't even relay your transactions. So this transaction do not even reach the miners. This is not so much subject to competition because reference client with rules set by developers is in great majority. (However, theoretically, anyone can modify reference client and spread it to community to adopt different relaying rules.)


For anyone saying: "You actually can send transactions for free in Bitcoin", I have a (theoretical as it does not concern me at the moment) question:
"I want to send 1000 to 10000 transactions per hour. All transactions are very recent outputs and all are worth fractions of cent. (<0.00001 BTC, that is more than 1 Satoshi but less than 1000 Satoshis) I do not want to pay ANY fees. I do not mind to wait several months, even a year for first confirmation. What options do I have?? (as a common user who wants to point and click and do not want to push raw transactions or compile own client or think too much.)"
There is nothing like "free lunch".

[Sonny]

the fee its not big but must be free

You don't have to pay a fee. And the money is sent almost instantly, you just need to wait for full confirmations to spends it.

Well. There are two levels to this problem.
1) With low fee you risk that miners won't include your transaction into new block for some time. This tradeoff between speed and cost is all right with me and it is a subject to competition of mining pools.
2) For some transactions you risk that reference client (that is majority of Bitcoin network) won't even relay your transactions. So this transaction do not even reach the miners. This is not so much subject to competition because reference client with rules set by developers is in great majority. (However, theoretically, anyone can modify reference client and spread it to community to adopt different relaying rules.)


For anyone saying: "You actually can send transactions for free in Bitcoin", I have a (theoretical as it does not concern me at the moment) question:
"I want to send 1000 to 10000 transactions per hour. All transactions are very recent outputs and all are worth fractions of cent. (<0.00001 BTC, that is more than 1 Satoshi but less than 1000 Satoshis) I do not want to pay ANY fees. I do not mind to wait several months, even a year for first confirmation. What options do I have?? (as a common user who wants to point and click and do not want to push raw transactions or compile own client or think too much.)"
There is nothing like "free lunch".

Pretty much agree to what you said.

BTW, creating raw tx is the troublesome and dangerous part, while pushing it is indeed very easy.
Just head over to https://blockchain.info/pushtx and click submit

[TenaciousC]

Crap, the standard fee should be set to 0.00005 in the wallet... seems it was changed to 0 for me (dunno why cause i had it set to 0.0001 before) or you should at least get a warning when your fee is set to low...

now I've got a transaction of 0.25BTC pending, floating around... wonder how long it is gonna take, days, weeks, months?

Is there a possibility existing to still add a fee to an already send out transaction?

[Sonny]

Is there a possibility existing to still add a fee to an already send out transaction?

Not at this moment. Some said such feature could be implemented later.
You can double spend it, but there is no easy way to "add" a fee to an existing transaction.

Crap, the standard fee should be set to 0.00005 in the wallet... seems it was changed to 0 for me

For a high-priority transaction, you can send it without any fee, and the wallet will not complain about it.
It will take more time (maybe a hour or so), but it will get included in a block eventually.

[SlowMotion]

The miners need a feed to still working for u

[TenaciousC]

The miners need a feed to still working for u

That I fully comprehend, it was never my intention to not put a fee, dunno how come it was set to zero...
Problem is i now got this transaction send out and their is no way to add a fee or get the transaction cancelled, so only thing to do is wait, wait and wait a bit more.

With doge for example i noticed the wallet complained when the transaction size exceeded thesize for the set fee, so you can easily accept to increase the fee and all is good

[TenaciousC]

Is there a possibility existing to still add a fee to an already send out transaction?

Not at this moment. Some said such feature could be implemented later.
You can double spend it, but there is no easy way to "add" a fee to an existing transaction.

Crap, the standard fee should be set to 0.00005 in the wallet... seems it was changed to 0 for me

For a high-priority transaction, you can send it without any fee, and the wallet will not complain about it.
It will take more time (maybe a hour or so), but it will get included in a block eventually.

How do i double spend it, isn't that a bad thing? and what is a high pri transaction?

sorry for the noob questions

[Sonny]

what is a high pri transaction?

High-priority (free) transaction:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees#Sending

If your tx satisfies the three conditions, your wallet will allow you to send it without any fee.

If it is the case, you probably don't need to do anything.
Just give it a few hours (at worst), the tx will probably be confirmed.

[TenaciousC]

what is a high pri transaction?

High-priority (free) transaction:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees#Sending

If your tx satisfies the three conditions, your wallet will allow you to send it without any fee.

If it is the case, you probably don't need to do anything.
Just give it a few hours (at worst), the tx will probably be confirmed.

Cool ,thanks for the info, very much appreciated!

[Sonny]

what is a high pri transaction?

High-priority (free) transaction:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees#Sending

If your tx satisfies the three conditions, your wallet will allow you to send it without any fee.

If it is the case, you probably don't need to do anything.
Just give it a few hours (at worst), the tx will probably be confirmed.

Cool ,thanks for the info, very much appreciated!

No problem

[Lox500]

this must be modified because we loose precious time with transactions. Nobody wants to wait for a simple transaction!I thought its all simple but they want to make easy money from us . shame for bitcoin!

[bitbitz]

ou need miners to confirm transactions!

[Sonny]

the fee its not big but must be free

I have not really sure I understand your point.
Are you suggesting all bitcoin tx should be free?

[Lox500]

transactions must be free!

[DeboraMeeks]

the fee its not big but must be free

The fee depends on the size of the outputs, for example a large KB transaction requires several fees of 0.0001, which can total up to and more than 0.001.

[DannyHamilton]

transactions must be free!

LoL.

If you are running a miner (which is how transactions get confirmed), then you have to spend money on the mining equipment, and you have to spend money on electricity.  Why would anybody do any mining if they weren't going to get paid?  No miners means no confirmations.  No confirmations means no bitcoins.

Who told you bitcoin transactions must be free?  They lied to you.

From the very beginning with the very first design of Bitcoin it has always been known that there would be transaction fees.

Did you not read the Satoshi Whitepaper?

[Lox500]

In about one year there will be no mining ! How about that? Who is going to confirm the transactions? Probably me.

[DannyHamilton]

In about one year there will be no mining ! How about that? Who is going to confirm the transactions? Probably me.

That is ridiculous. Where did you hear such a thing?  You need to learn a LOT about how bitcoin works if you want to start commenting on how it should work and what will happen in the future.

You are either receiving some very incorrect information from a very unreliable source, or you are just making things up off the top of your head because you like the way it sounds.

Either way, please stop posting false and ridiculous "facts" until you have a better understanding of what is really happening.  Or perhaps you're just a troll trying to stir up discord for your own entertainment?  I really have to stop responding to trolls.

[Lox500]

You are not informed . There is an end for mining! Ask someone else

[Sonny]

You are not informed . There is an end for mining! Ask someone else

You must hear that info from an secret source lol

[DannyHamilton]

You are not informed . There is an end for mining! Ask someone else

I am VERY informed.  I have read the Satoshi Whitepaper (you clearly have not), and have been an active participant on bitcointalk.org for over 19 months.  I've studied the Bitcoin-Qt source code, I've read the bitcoin wiki, and I've participated in countless discussions about the technical details of how bitcoin works.

You on the other hand are either not informed, or mis-informed.  The only end to mining is if bitcoin stops existing.  So long as bitcoin continues to exist and serve a valuable purpose, mining will continue.

If you are interested in learning, you are welcome to ask questions that I will strive to answer for you so you can be better informed and can better understand how bitcoin is designed to work, but you really should learn a bit more before you try to make statements about how bitcoin does (or should) work.

At the absolute least, you should try reading the Satoshi Whitepaper.

[Sonny]

DM, you shouldn't take it seriously.
He is not even trying to explain his point, or share any links to that FUD.

[Colin Miner]

transactions must be free!

Then who is going to pay the miners for their time and electricity in the future?

If all future transactions are sent with no fee, then people will stop mining when there are no more new blocks and the system will collapse.

PAY THE FEE, its very good value for money... have you ever used PayPal? That is just a rip-off.

[Lox500]

the number of bitcoins in existence will never exceed 21 million.

[Sonny]

the number of bitcoins in existence will never exceed 21 million.

And so?
We can have 21 billion mBTC, 21 trillion µBTC or 2.1 quadrillion satoshi.

Or, do you prefer the number of bitcoin to keep on increasing just like USD?

[Lox500]

after 21 million bitcoin the mining will stop.

[DannyHamilton]

the number of bitcoins in existence will never exceed 21 million.

You are correct.

As a matter of fact, the number of bitcoins will actually never exceed 20999999.97690000 BTC.

This will happen somewhere around the year 2140 (about 126 years from now).

Of course during this time, the block subsidy will be reduced by half (and rounded down to the nearest 0.01 microbitcoins) every 4 years.  So the 25 BTC subsidy that miners receive today will be reduced to 12.5 BTC in about 3 years.  Then that will be reduced to 6.25 BTC 4 years later, and so on.

In the meantime, the value of the total transaction fees of all transactions included in the block will increase over time as bitcoin gains popularity.  Eventually the subsidy will shrink to an amount that is less than the transaction fees.  At that time, the reward the miners receive will mostly come from transaction fees instead of the subsidy.

When the subsidy eventually shrinks to 0 BTC, mining will be entirely supported by transaction fees.

[DannyHamilton]

after 21 million bitcoin the mining will stop.

New bitcoins will stop being created before the total created bitcoins reaches 20999999.97690000 BTC, however this will NOT stop the mining process.

Miners will continue to do the exact same work that they do today.  The only difference will be that their income will come from the transaction fees instead of from the block subsidy.

Perhaps we will stop calling it "mining" and will start calling it "transaction processing" instead, but the actual work being performed will be exactly the same.

[cp1]

Don't forget that it'll be over 100 years until we hit 21 million.

[Lox500]

Nothing is forever!

[dhanumitra]

how will be btc transactions confirmed after 100 years?

[Sonny]

Nothing is forever!

In about one year there will be no mining ! How about that? Who is going to confirm the transactions? Probably me.

So, what make you feel there will be no mining in 1 year?
Care to share?

[Sonny]

how will be btc transactions confirmed after 100 years?

Please refer to DannyHamilton's post in page 2.

Of course during this time, the block subsidy will be reduced by half (and rounded down to the nearest 0.10 microbitcoins) every 4 years.  So the 25 BTC subsidy that miners receive today will be reduced to 12.5 BTC in about 3 years.  Then that will be reduced to 6.25 BTC 4 years later, and so on.

In the meantime, the value of the total transaction fees of all transactions included in the block will increase over time as bitcoin gains popularity.  Eventually the subsidy will shrink to an amount that is less than the transaction fees.  At that time, the reward the miners receive will mostly come from transaction fees instead of the subsidy.

When the subsidy eventually shrinks to 0 BTC, mining will be entirely supported by transaction fees.

[Lox500]

Probably after a few years will be no mining because the price for bitcoin is low . If the price will be right the mining process will continue until the end.
Nobody want to mine for bitcoin and loose money and time .

[DannyHamilton]

Don't forget that it'll be over 100 years until we hit 21 million.

We will never hit 21 million.

We will never even hit 20999999.97690000

We will get close to it, but as you mention that will take approximately 126 more years.

[DannyHamilton]

Nothing is forever!

The first thing you've said that is actually correct.

That would be why I stated:

"So long as bitcoin continues to exist and serve a valuable purpose, mining will continue."

[DannyHamilton]

how will be btc transactions confirmed after 100 years?

The same way they are now.  They will be confirmed by the creation (mining) of blocks in exchange for a bitcoin reward.  It's just that in 100 years a much larger percentage of that reward will come from transaction fees instead of from a block subsidy.

[DannyHamilton]

Probably after a few years will be no mining because the price for bitcoin is low . If the price will be right the mining process will continue until the end.
Nobody want to mine for bitcoin and loose money and time .

So you are predicting that the value of bitcoins will decrease? You are certain of this?  How are you certain? Are you able to see the future?

If some people stop mining, then the difficulty will decrease and all the remaining miners will receive more bitcoins for the same effort.  No matter what the value is, as long as there is some value, there will continue to be some people who will want those bitcoins.  People were mining back when bitcoin was valued at 1,000 BTC for $1.  They will continue to do so in the future.

The system is designed so that the price for mining is ALWAYS right. That is why the difficulty adjusts automatically every 2016 blocks.

[Lox500]

Im not saying that bitcoin price will be higher or lower . I do not want to predict the price of bitcoin . They say will be 10 000 $ or 100 000 $ per bitcoin. I believe that 1000 $ for 1 bitcoin is too much but ...

[Wusolini]

I have made a bitcoin transaction and took 1 hour to be validated ! This is too much !.....

compare this to standard bank transfer.
and I'm not talking about weekends or bankholidays or even sending money to other side of globe ... it tooks days (if you dont pay some extra fees)

still you think its too much?

[Lox500]

if is automatically done yes its too much - must be instant.

[DannyHamilton]

if is automatically done yes its too much - must be instant.

Well then you should go use that other currency that allows instant free transactions directly between any two people in all circumstances all the time.

Bitcoin is not the right solution for your needs.

And I have now spent enough time attempting to hold a conversation with a troll.  Lox500 will be added to my ignore list.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Probably after a few years will be no mining because the price for bitcoin is low . If the price will be right the mining process will continue until the end.
Nobody want to mine for bitcoin and loose money and time .

ining can (and was) profitable at both $0.01 per BTC and $1,200 per BTC.  If mining is unprofitable FOR SOME PEOPLE, they will stop, and the hashrate will decline, and the difficulty will decline, and thus it will be more profitable for those who remain.  If it becomes "too profitable" for those who are mining, more hashpower will be deployed chasing those profits, and the hashrate will go up, and the difficulty will go up, and thus it will be less profitable for all miners.  The network will always reach an equilibrium.

[DannyHamilton]

Mining can (and was) profitable at both $0.01 per BTC and $1,200 per BTC.  If mining is unprofitable FOR SOME PEOPLE, they will stop and thus it will be more profitable for those who remain.  If it becomes "too profitable" for those who are mining, more people will mine and the profitable will decline.  The network will always reach an equilibrium.

Do I hear an echo?

 

If some people stop mining, then the difficulty will decrease and all the remaining miners will receive more bitcoins for the same effort.  No matter what the value is, as long as there is some value, there will continue to be some people who will want those bitcoins.  People were mining back when bitcoin was valued at 1,000 BTC for $1.  They will continue to do so in the future.

The system is designed so that the price for mining is ALWAYS right. That is why the difficulty adjusts automatically every 2016 blocks.

[Wusolini]

if is automatically done yes its too much - must be instant.

if this is your main requirement you shoud quit with btc and focus on 'hand to hand' trade wich is very instant.
but You'd be limited to local trade or waste much more time traveling to meet the merchant

[ZephramC]

the number of bitcoins in existence will never exceed 21 million.

You are correct.

As a matter of fact, the number of bitcoins will actually never exceed 20999999.97690000 BTC.

This will happen somewhere around the year 2140 (about 126 years from now).

Of course during this time, the block subsidy will be reduced by half (and rounded down to the nearest 0.10 microbitcoins) every 4 years.  So the 25 BTC subsidy that miners receive today will be reduced to 12.5 BTC in about 3 years.  Then that will be reduced to 6.25 BTC 4 years later, and so on.

In the meantime, the value of the total transaction fees of all transactions included in the block will increase over time as bitcoin gains popularity.  Eventually the subsidy will shrink to an amount that is less than the transaction fees.  At that time, the reward the miners receive will mostly come from transaction fees instead of the subsidy.

When the subsidy eventually shrinks to 0 BTC, mining will be entirely supported by transaction fees.

I have read both Satoshi whitepaper and wiki, but I missed that part with rounding. Isnt it instead 0.01 microBTC = 1 Satoshi? Isnt reward reduction done by bitshift with "no rounding"?

[DannyHamilton]

- snip -
(and rounded down to the nearest 0.10 microbitcoins)
- snip -

I have read both Satoshi whitepaper and wiki, but I missed that part with rounding. Isnt it instead 0.01 microBTC = 1 Satoshi? Isnt reward reduction done by bitshift with "no rounding"?

Yes, that was a typo.  I intended to say 0.01 microbitcoins.  I'll fix it in the post where I made the error. Thank you.

Also, yes, it is technically handled with a bitshift on an integer value, the resulting effect is to cut the value in half and round down to the nearest integer value.  Explaining the concept of a bitshift to someone who wasn't even interested in understanding the basic concepts of mining and bitcoin creation seemed futile, so I went with describing the effect rather than the technical details of the method.