Bitcoin Forum
December 09, 2016, 07:45:40 AM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 [5]  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Bitcoin version 0.4 released  (Read 15677 times)
paraipan
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 924


Firstbits: 1pirata


View Profile WWW
September 25, 2011, 05:02:32 PM
 #81

I'll be interested in two things, and I'll make some of my own estimates for the fun of it:
...............................................................................


Some sort of lost bitcoin recycling protocol could be implemented in the future to alleviate all of that. Something along the lines of requiring bitcoins to either be transferred at least once over some very extended amount of time (say 2 years), or the bitcoins will be flagged as lost and re-mined. In terms of usability, the client could simply tell the user the time remaining for the oldest bitcoin in their wallet to expire, informing them that they need to make a simple transfer of their coins by then to retain ownership of them.

man, not that btc recycling again, you seem to have serious issues grasping a decentralized store of value economy.
After being born, educated and lived almost a whole life in a system like we have today, we try to desperately to put concepts and existent ideas into every new system that already works by it's rules only to avoid having to learn from scratch.
Educate yourself a little more

BTCitcoin: An Idea Worth Saving - Q&A with bitcoins on rugatu.com - Check my rep
1481269540
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481269540

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481269540
Reply with quote  #2

1481269540
Report to moderator
1481269540
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481269540

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481269540
Reply with quote  #2

1481269540
Report to moderator
Be very wary of relying on JavaScript for security on sites such as blockchain.info and brainwallet.org. The site can change the JavaScript at any time unless you take unusual precautions, and browsers are not generally known for their airtight security.
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
mmortal03
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1395


View Profile
September 25, 2011, 09:53:57 PM
 #82

Some sort of lost bitcoin recycling protocol could be implemented in the future to alleviate all of that. Something along the lines of requiring bitcoins to either be transferred at least once over some very extended amount of time (say 2 years), or the bitcoins will be flagged as lost and re-mined. In terms of usability, the client could simply tell the user the time remaining for the oldest bitcoin in their wallet to expire, informing them that they need to make a simple transfer of their coins by then to retain ownership of them.
Surely the client can just detect when an address may expire and transfer it to a new address automatically since the client doesn't even show what addresses contain what portion of the balance.

Yeah, I definitely don't have a philosophical problem with that idea. The trick is that it wouldn't work for encrypted wallets, because by definition, the client couldn't have it automatically send the coins out if he doesn't know the password.  Furthermore, any automated transfer every so often might theoretically be a security hole that could be exploited.

Quote
The real problem is when users don't use their wallet for a long period of time and then one day open it expecting their bitcoins to still have value. I'm not sure you can demand that users use the client to maintain their wallet value.

Yeah, I agree with that sentiment, but I don't think that that expectation is necessarily a fundamental principle that can't be breached. The use of bitcoin is a choice, and its foundational principles are going to be based on what the majority will download as their client. I don't think it would be unreasonable proposition to the people who want to be a part of the system to agree to a protocol that simply maintains the currency's count in circulation. If someone loses their wallet.dat, or someone sends their bitcoins to a bad address, this wouldn't hurt them, as they've already lost their coins, but it would solve the problem that they are lost to everyone else forever. The only argument I can think of against it might be for someone who forgot their wallet password, and wanted it to stay within their right to brute force their password over a longer period of time than the transfer deadline (the example was two years). I'm not sure whether or not it would break these physical bitcoin concepts that are out there.


man, not that btc recycling again, you seem to have serious issues grasping a decentralized store of value economy.
After being born, educated and lived almost a whole life in a system like we have today, we try to desperately to put concepts and existent ideas into every new system that already works by it's rules only to avoid having to learn from scratch.
Educate yourself a little more

I'm just bringing it up as a consideration -- I'm not set on it or anything. I think you're making an unnecessary judgement on my grasp on the concept of decentralized stores of value, instead of simply making your point.

Quote
After being born, educated and lived almost a whole life in a system like we have today, we try to desperately to put concepts and existent ideas into every new system that already works by it's rules only to avoid having to learn from scratch.
Educate yourself a little more
Come on, do you really think I'm doing this? I'm very persuaded by anarcho-capitalist perspectives, which of course isn't anywhere near the majority perspective I've grown up around, so I don't think I'm very motivated to do what you're suggesting. Anyway, coming up with a reasonable way to maintain bitcoin's count in circulation could be argued as being contrary to any system any of us have grown up with, because, in contrast, our current governments do nothing of the sort.
netrin
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 322


FirstBits: 168Bc


View Profile
September 25, 2011, 10:57:18 PM
 #83

...but it would solve the problem that they are lost to everyone else forever. The only argument I can think of against it might be for someone who forgot their wallet password, and wanted it to stay within their right to brute force their password over a longer period of time than the transfer deadline (the example was two years).

Lost coins are only a problem to the sucker who lost them. His moral right to brute force them back into existence are dwarfed by thieves' motivation, superior mathematics and processing power. Cryptographic rights trump legal and moral.

Greenlandic tupilak. Hand carved, traditional cursed bone figures. Sorry, polar bear, walrus and human remains not available for export.
mmortal03
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1395


View Profile
September 26, 2011, 12:26:44 AM
 #84

...but it would solve the problem that they are lost to everyone else forever. The only argument I can think of against it might be for someone who forgot their wallet password, and wanted it to stay within their right to brute force their password over a longer period of time than the transfer deadline (the example was two years).
Lost coins are only a problem to the sucker who lost them.

Aren't they also an unnecessary cause of deflation, given the concept of being able to re-mine them?

Quote
His moral right to brute force them back into existence are dwarfed by thieves' motivation, superior mathematics and processing power. Cryptographic rights trump legal and moral.

Are lost coins somehow more vulnerable to thieves? I'm not understanding what you're suggesting here.
julz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1092



View Profile
September 26, 2011, 12:27:46 AM
 #85



man, not that btc recycling again,

I'm just bringing it up as a consideration


It's like whack-a-mole   Sad

Seriously - even 20 years is too short a time for this sort of thing. Consider people jailed for political reasons; they should damn well have their bitcoins when they get out.
I sure as hell don't want to have to destroy my bitbills or casascius coins in a few years, and I might want to put them in a vault for 10 years or more.

For a currency which purports to give *personal* control over your money - this idea is a bad joke.

There's no need to recycle old coins.   If concern about large savings (previously thought lost) suddenly coming onto a market with fewer total bitcoins is an issue in oh.. about 100 years from now; they can deal with that by transitioning to another blockchain entirely over a period of many decades.

@electricwings   BM-GtyD5exuDJ2kvEbr41XchkC8x9hPxdFd
BkkCoins
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 784


firstbits:1MinerQ


View Profile WWW
September 26, 2011, 12:32:43 AM
 #86

Besides, you would never, never ever get any agreement on the issue because the loss of coins naturally raises the value of those remaining, even if by a small amount.

The correct path is to put a small amount of serious effort into making sure your wallet isn't lost.

If you lose your US$ cash no one would seriously suggest they should be re-imbursed (unless you have paid for insurance). Perhaps people worried about this need to start a bitcoin insurance company. Sounds like a new business idea but I have no idea how you would prove the loss of bitcoins.

pointbiz
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 426

1ninja


View Profile
September 26, 2011, 01:54:39 AM
 #87

btc recycling is a bad idea.

It's simpler to make a proxy-currency (with a new block chain and slightly altered economic rules) that can be used for daily transactions which are exchangeable with floating rates to bitcoins which would be used for longer term storage.

Coder of: https://www.bitaddress.org      Thread
Open Source JavaScript Client-Side Bitcoin Wallet Generator
Donations: 1NiNja1bUmhSoTXozBRBEtR8LeF9TGbZBN   PGP
i dig bitcoins
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 65


View Profile
September 26, 2011, 03:43:25 AM
 #88

Hey Gavin and co., great job man !! I really appreciate and value the hard work that your team and yourself have contributed to the viability of the bitcoin project...keep up the good work. Without your client, I would not have any bitcoins. Thanks again.
casascius
Mike Caldwell
VIP
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1344


The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)


View Profile WWW
September 26, 2011, 09:14:45 PM
 #89

I could see a value in recycling bitdust (small transactions that are of very low value, like 0.00004) when their storage cost on the network vastly exceeds their value... but not for any economic theory, just practicality.  I don't want half my hard drive devoted to a collection of gigabytes/terabytes of transactions whose total sum is 1.00 BTC.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
BitcoinMint.US
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 267



View Profile
September 26, 2011, 11:49:10 PM
 #90

Updated.  Thanks Gavin.
c_k
Donator
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 242



View Profile
September 27, 2011, 12:38:53 AM
 #91

Where is best to submit bugs?

git?

runeks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 924



View Profile WWW
September 28, 2011, 10:08:39 PM
 #92

Launching bitcoin in Linux takes about 10 minutes for the actual window to show up. Not sure what the deal is here, it's not using a lot of CPU power.
What can I do to debug this?

EDIT: Attaching with gdb prints this output:

Code:
(gdb) where
#0  0x00007feee07aa967 in mlock () at ../sysdeps/unix/syscall-template.S:82
#1  0x0000000000440b6f in ?? ()
#2  0x0000000000440c36 in ?? ()
#3  0x0000000000440d61 in ?? ()
#4  0x000000000042fba6 in ?? ()
#5  0x0000000000466090 in ?? ()
#6  0x000000000044973b in ?? ()
#7  0x000000000044c329 in ?? ()
#8  0x0000000000501c19 in ?? ()
#9  0x000000000068c040 in ?? ()
#10 0x00000000004fe9e2 in ?? ()
#11 0x00007feee06e7eff in __libc_start_main (main=0x4fe9d0, argc=1,
    ubp_av=0x7fff45f55278, init=<value optimized out>,
    fini=<value optimized out>, rtld_fini=<value optimized out>,
    stack_end=0x7fff45f55268) at libc-start.c:226
#12 0x0000000000424569 in ?? ()
#13 0x00007fff45f55268 in ?? ()
#14 0x000000000000001c in ?? ()
#15 0x0000000000000001 in ?? ()
#16 0x00007fff45f55aff in ?? ()
#17 0x0000000000000000 in ?? ()

Is a bitcoin client with debug symbols available somewhere?
Gavin Andresen
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1652


Chief Scientist


View Profile WWW
September 29, 2011, 12:55:03 AM
 #93

Submit bugs here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues
Although all of the GUI code is being replaced in the next version, so don't bother submitting UI bugs.

RE: debugging what bitcoin is doing in the 10 minutes it takes for the window to come up:
  tail -f ~/.bitcoin/debug.log
... should tell you what it is busy doing.  Probably loading the block chain and reading the wallet (do you have a very large wallet.dat?)

How often do you get the chance to work on a potentially world-changing project?
runeks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 924



View Profile WWW
September 29, 2011, 01:02:36 AM
 #94

I have one sending address and three receiving addresses, seems pretty small to me. The following is added to debug.log while bitcoin is waiting to appear:

Code:
Bitcoin version 0.4.0-beta
OS version Linux 2.6.38-11-generic x86_64
System default language is 66 en_DK.UTF-8
Language file locale/en_DK/LC_MESSAGES/bitcoin.mo (English (Denmark))
Default data directory /home/rune/.bitcoin
Bound to port 8333
Loading addresses...
dbenv.open strLogDir=/home/rune/.bitcoin/database strErrorFile=/home/rune/.bitcoin/db.log

I'm reporting a bug.
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 [5]  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!