Anyone keeping track of merchant profits?

[mobodick]

Christ people, are you realy that dumb and blind?

It . Is . A . Feedback . Loop .

Miners influence price and price influences miners and then miners influence the price etc etc etc..
You guys are trying way to hard to fit this process into a hirarchical control structure.
In fact it is a symbiosis.
No value without market, no coins without miners, both needed to have coins with value.

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[P4man]

Edit:  By the way.  It has a psychological effect on me.  And 1 person is all it takes to prove you wrong.  I mine, I influence the price because I trade.  My trades depended on what I had in my wallet, and once it crossed a threshold (my threshold is 1 BTC) then I sold.  If I continued to mine but didn't acquire 1 BTC, I wouldn'tve sold.  But, I mined and it did cross 1 BTC many times, so I sold.  I affected the price.  Hence, miners affect price.

You really didnt think this through did you? You're basically selling every BTC you earn (BTW, you pay transaction fees on each and every coin, WTF?).
Assume everyone is like you, if there where 1/10th the number miners, each with 10x more hashing power then you, each earning 10x more BTCs each, what do you think would happen? On average, not a bloody thing.  If those 10x less miners only had the same hashing power as  you, what would happen? Not a bloody thing, besides difficulty becoming 1/10th.
In each case the same amount of bitcoins would be mined, the same amount would be sold everyday on average. The only thing you could argue is miners keeping their BTCs for speculation, but thats not different than buying BTCs for speculation. All thats different is that you pay with electricity rather than dollars.

The amount of miners doesnt affect price. Global hashrate doesnt affect price. Global hashrate however, is a direct result of the price.

@Etlase2
Yes, we had the same discussion, except you didnt even realize the amount of miners or hashrate has no effect on the amount of bitcoins mined. Doh.

[Etlase2]

@Etlase2
Yes, we had the same discussion, except you didnt even realize the amount of miners or hashrate has no effect on the amount of bitcoins mined. Doh.

let's pretend there are not people with hundreds of thousands of bitcoins lurking in the shadows.

Example A:
There are 10 miners who are using their average GPUs to mine a total of 10 coins an hour.
They spend $2 each in electricity to mine those 10 coins an hour.
They all are only doing this to sell their coins and make a small profit.

When they go to sell their coins, they must sell for at least $2 per coin to recover the cost of electricity. (I will ignore the cost of GPUs or what have you for these examples.)
Since they used up time and energy that could have been spent doing something else, they want to earn a profit as well.
So each of these miners wants to sell their coins for $3.

10 coins an hour are added to the market with a sell price of $3.

Example B:
Now imagine there are 20 miners with their average GPUs mining 10 coins an hour.
They each spend $2 in electricity.

Everything else being the same, they only earn 0.5 coins, so their 0.5 coin is worth that same $3.

10 coins an hour are added to the market with a sell price of $6.


The number of miners affects the price. Yes, the price also affects the number of miners. But the number of miners is a baseline to go by, ignoring supply or demand of the people who aren't mining.

Since miners make up 60,000 people, you should be awfully careful when saying what they do has no affect on the price of a bitcoin. Not to mention any NEW currency all comes from them, whereas the rest is money that is tossed around by the same people over and over.

If half the miners decide bitcoin is stupid and drop out, the price of mining for coins has just gone down and the price of buying bitcoins on the market will follow.

[P4man]

Example A:
There are 10 miners who are using their average GPUs to mine a total of 10 coins an hour.
They spend $2 each in electricity to mine those 10 coins an hour.
They all are only doing this to sell their coins and make a small profit.

Example B:
Now imagine there are 20 miners with their average GPUs mining 10 coins an hour.
They each spend $2 in electricity.

You still dont get it. The global hashrate adjusts to fit the cost per MH and the value of bitcoin. There isnt going to be a 2x difference from that, or people would lose money for every hour that they mine. If your point is that some might do that anyway hoping the price would go up later, then please pretty please consider anyone who is not braindamaged will still turn his rig off, and use the money saved on electricity to buy bitcoins to speculate on future price rise.

The number of miners affects the price. Yes, the price also affects the number of miners. But the number of miners is a baseline to go by

Its not a "baseline"? Its a function of the price (and cost per MH). Go check the charts, have you not seen how global hashrate exploded together with the price, and how its slowly dropping now along with the price ? Sure, there is some delay, bringing rigs online or getting them sold or making the decision to pull the plug takes some time, but the correlation is nearly perfect. It should be. And always will be.

If half the miners decide bitcoin is stupid and drop out, the price of mining for coins has just gone down and the price of buying bitcoins on the market will follow.

Miners mine because it makes money. They quit when it doesnt make money. Yes I am assuming on average rational behavior, then its all rather predictable. What you cant predict are the people who can change their minds and suddenly "think its stupid". Those are the speculators, they could dump half their ownings on the market, or double their positions in a whim. Those are driving the price. The miners, they follow.

If you want to argue that miners are also speculators, speculating with the few bitcoins they mine, which they  could sell or keep, then fine. But as such they are first and foremost speculators, the mining aspect is not relevant. Buying coins with dollars or electricity amounts to the same thing.

[the joint]

Christ people, are you realy that dumb and blind?

It . Is . A . Feedback . Loop .

Miners influence price and price influences miners and then miners influence the price etc etc etc..
You guys are trying way to hard to fit this process into a hirarchical control structure.
In fact it is a symbiosis.
No value without market, no coins without miners, both needed to have coins with value.

Ding ding ding.  We have a winner!  What do we have for him today, Johnny?

[the joint]

P4man, the gentleman at the top of this 2nd page did a brilliant job of simply putting it.  It's a symbiotic loop.

Whether you care or not, right now is the present moment, and the present moment in BTC-land contains BTC price and miners.  The present would not be the present that it is were it not for absolutely every single thing that is right now.

Miners are completely entwined with price.

Nothing is absolutely independent of anything else (that's why it's a relationship; even relationships of absolute independence are included within the medium of interdependence).

End of story.

[Syke]

Can we all agree that when the price goes up, miners come online, and when the price goes down, miners turn off? I think we can all agree there's a pretty strong correlation from price -> miners.

Let's try to walk through the reverse. Assume 25% more miners come online. All miners start putting in sell orders at 25% higher prices. But those sell orders only go through when someone shows up to buy those coins at the inflated price. Miners can't make that happen. Miners cannot create buyers. So there's only a weak correlation from miners -> price.

[the joint]

Can we all agree that when the price goes up, miners come online, and when the price goes down, miners turn off? I think we can all agree there's a pretty strong correlation from price -> miners.

Let's try to walk through the reverse. Assume 25% more miners come online. All miners start putting in sell orders at 25% higher prices. But those sell orders only go through when someone shows up to buy those coins at the inflated price. Miners can't make that happen. Miners cannot create buyers. So there's only a weak correlation from miners -> price.

There's causation from miners --> price

[P4man]

Syke, there is no point arguing. Some people just cant seem to distinguish between miners and speculators. Or rather between mining for profit and speculating. Let them believe in the positive feedback loop and wonder how come prices arent spiraling out of control in either direction.

[the joint]

Syke, there is no point arguing. Some people just cant seem to distinguish between miners and speculators. Or rather between mining for profit and speculating. Let them believe in the positive feedback loop and wonder how come prices arent spiraling out of control in either direction.

You're fantastic at analyzing things in isolation.

That method doesn't apply well here.

People are not simply categorized as Miners OR Speculators.

Sometimes they are one, sometimes they are the other, sometimes they are both, sometimes they are neither.

Sometimes they are all of these things simultaneously.  Sometimes they are none.  Sometimes they are both all and none at the same time, and sometimes they are neither all nor none.

Regardless, systems are not the systems they are without their inclusive parts.  In a system that encompasses miners, speculators, and price, all are entwined, and all are interdependent.

Me typing this post influences price.

You breathing influences price.

A man coughing on a goat hair in China influences price.

This is because the Bitcoin system is involved in larger systems.

Isolation will get you nowhere.

[P4man]

Anyone with an IQ bigger than his shoe size would assume in the context of this discussion "miners" means people mining for the revenue of mining. Not people speculating who also happen to run a mining rig.   You butterfly causing a hurricane argument is neither original, meaningful or relevant, but Ill grant you it perfectly fits your "argument". What are you, 12 ?

[the joint]

Anyone with an IQ bigger than his shoe size would assume in the context of this discussion "miners" means people mining for the revenue of mining. Not people speculating who also happen to run a mining rig.   You butterfly causing a hurricane argument is neither original, meaningful or relevant, but Ill grant you it perfectly fits your "argument". What are you, 12 ?

My shoe size is 200.

And it's not my fault that people assume miners/traders/speculators are mutually exclusive in a value context.

When you isolate a specific context, you may find "oh look, miners don't seem to do much for the value."

Good job.  Now, if the context you considered is 'x,' all you need to do is consider (infinite - x) other contexts or "assumptions."

Edit:  My point:  There are infinite variables/factors that affect the miner/price relationship.  You are aware of a couple of these.  You are largely unaware of most.  You have absolutely no idea about the relationship between miners and price.  All I know is that there is one, and it's extremely intricate.

[panerai]

I would say the largest market where bitcoins are traded for goods or services is Silk Road.