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Author Topic: NXT Silver Bullion Gateway Gateway Updates and Information  (Read 12187 times)
Sebastien256
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March 13, 2014, 12:58:52 AM
 #141

anon: I'm pretty sure your calculation of 5.5% difference is correct, you used the formulas and values correctly.
a temperature difference of about 900 degrees is pretty severe, I think a shrinking of 5% is absolutely possible.

maybe anon can start by that and adjusting by experience. If anon cast many silver bar, then It only take a couple adjustment from experiment to make it right. I don't know. Is that what you plan anon?
Or you want to be right the first time?

You can use the newton method or the bissection method to adjust rapidly your experimental guess each time given the results of your previous casting.  

yes its going to involve experimentation. that's inevitable. as complicated as this all sounds one has to consider additionally that the mould its self will be expanding and contracting with the heat. i hope my customers will be patient with me if my earlier bars come in at under 10 troy ounces. i will of course re-pour them for free when i get it perfect at some point in the future.

Do you have some experience in casting? or some people around you know that science? Casting at 1200-1300K is very dangerous.

no i dont not have any experience. of course that can be said for everyone who does at some point in their life. i am working with newliberty.

I suggest you go take some casting course. That would be best thing you can do. Or go visit directly some forgery and ask them questions. They are probably the best people that can help you.
To achieve 1200-1300K in a furnace, you need special equipement. And when it get out of the furnace. It is very very f**king hot around.

I don't want to get you hurt while you escrow something for me.... joking lol (only for the escrow part)

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March 13, 2014, 10:35:21 AM
 #142


I guess it will be sold only in US.
What about the European market ? What do you need to make your Silver Bullion available to Europe ?


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March 13, 2014, 05:58:28 PM
 #143


I guess it will be sold only in US.
What about the European market ? What do you need to make your Silver Bullion available to Europe ?



its going to be us only at first. after that i will explore options for other parts of the world.

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March 13, 2014, 06:08:44 PM
 #144

anon: I'm pretty sure your calculation of 5.5% difference is correct, you used the formulas and values correctly.
a temperature difference of about 900 degrees is pretty severe, I think a shrinking of 5% is absolutely possible.

maybe anon can start by that and adjusting by experience. If anon cast many silver bar, then It only take a couple adjustment from experiment to make it right. I don't know. Is that what you plan anon?
Or you want to be right the first time?

You can use the newton method or the bissection method to adjust rapidly your experimental guess each time given the results of your previous casting.  

yes its going to involve experimentation. that's inevitable. as complicated as this all sounds one has to consider additionally that the mould its self will be expanding and contracting with the heat. i hope my customers will be patient with me if my earlier bars come in at under 10 troy ounces. i will of course re-pour them for free when i get it perfect at some point in the future.

Do you have some experience in casting? or some people around you know that science? Casting at 1200-1300K is very dangerous.

no i dont not have any experience. of course that can be said for everyone who does at some point in their life. i am working with newliberty.

I suggest you go take some casting course. That would be best thing you can do. Or go visit directly some forgery and ask them questions. They are probably the best people that can help you.
To achieve 1200-1300K in a furnace, you need special equipement. And when it get out of the furnace. It is very very f**king hot around.

I don't want to get you hurt while you escrow something for me.... joking lol (only for the escrow part)

newliberty has experience in this business.

this is the sort of furnace ill be using
http://www.ebay.com/itm/240V-Electric-Kiln-Furnace-Gold-Copper-Silver-Smelter-Assay-Melting-Bars-MYOGB9-/310877668789

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March 14, 2014, 12:04:00 PM
 #145


I guess it will be sold only in US.
What about the European market ? What do you need to make your Silver Bullion available to Europe ?



its going to be us only at first. after that i will explore options for other parts of the world.
Can possibly set you up with a trusted UK re-seller, if thats the route you take.

Good to see you connect with Newliberty.
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March 14, 2014, 01:47:49 PM
 #146


I guess it will be sold only in US.
What about the European market ? What do you need to make your Silver Bullion available to Europe ?



its going to be us only at first. after that i will explore options for other parts of the world.
Can possibly set you up with a trusted UK re-seller, if thats the route you take.

Good to see you connect with Newliberty.

yea hes a great guy. so patient and helpful. especially considering ill be competition for him. Tongue

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March 14, 2014, 02:31:39 PM
 #147

Reposting here, since it probably got lost in The Big Thread:

are there any engineers here who can double check some math for me?

depend what it is.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=455861.msg5663657#msg5663657
thanks for taking a look either way

Huh, instead of a code question you ask a science question about silver.  At last I am in my element (if you'll pardon the pun)!

First of all, something I ran across while researching this that is just plain cool:

http://www.capturedlightning.com/frames/shrinkergallery.html

Here's somebody that talks about shrinkage while casting silver bullets:

http://www.patriciabriggs.com/articles/silver/silverbullet4.shtml

As far as cast silver shrinkage goes, here's a few other references for you to consider.  First, the shrinkage occurs in three stages:

http://thelibraryofmanufacturing.com/metalcasting_operation.html

Also, the thermal coefficient of expansion for silver varies with temperature, from 18.9 at room temp to 27.1 at 1100 K.  This says the first order approx for cubic vol expansion is roughly 3 times that which is 56.7 to 81.3 - in the range you were quoting:

http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk/general_physics/2_3/2_3_5.html

Next, this guy measured silver volume expansion in his lab setup in preparation for measuring a copper-iron alloy.  He got  2.56% on cooling and 3.58% on heating, against a tabulated value of 3.4-3.8%.  See pg 20 of the PDF, page 7 of the thesis:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.diva-portal.org%2Fsmash%2Fget%2Fdiva2%3A218833%2FFULLTEXT01.pdf&ei=-AQhU_vTBsulkQeT4IHQDw&usg=AFQjCNFLhKymiTGSwBWr-prG1LsriM2udA&sig2=HEbEyhcf_FZMEzfRQqqPsQ&bvm=bv.62922401,d.eW0

The book he lists as Ref 32 (the 1976 edition of Smithells Metals Reference Handbook) is here:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC4QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fworldtracker.org%2Fmedia%2Flibrary%2FEngineering%2FMetallurgy%2FSmithells%2520Metals%2520Reference%2520Book%2520(7th%2520Edition).pdf&ei=gAchU9LyHdDSkQfRj4CoAQ&usg=AFQjCNGsZHjMhb-8NW473q7STxAsIM5raQ&sig2=3uvHS5OGsAXxnfkBCnIBQw&bvm=bv.62922401,d.eW0

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March 15, 2014, 12:26:21 AM
 #148

Reposting here, since it probably got lost in The Big Thread:

are there any engineers here who can double check some math for me?

depend what it is.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=455861.msg5663657#msg5663657
thanks for taking a look either way

Huh, instead of a code question you ask a science question about silver.  At last I am in my element (if you'll pardon the pun)!

First of all, something I ran across while researching this that is just plain cool:

http://www.capturedlightning.com/frames/shrinkergallery.html

Here's somebody that talks about shrinkage while casting silver bullets:

http://www.patriciabriggs.com/articles/silver/silverbullet4.shtml

As far as cast silver shrinkage goes, here's a few other references for you to consider.  First, the shrinkage occurs in three stages:

http://thelibraryofmanufacturing.com/metalcasting_operation.html

Also, the thermal coefficient of expansion for silver varies with temperature, from 18.9 at room temp to 27.1 at 1100 K.  This says the first order approx for cubic vol expansion is roughly 3 times that which is 56.7 to 81.3 - in the range you were quoting:

http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk/general_physics/2_3/2_3_5.html

Next, this guy measured silver volume expansion in his lab setup in preparation for measuring a copper-iron alloy.  He got  2.56% on cooling and 3.58% on heating, against a tabulated value of 3.4-3.8%.  See pg 20 of the PDF, page 7 of the thesis:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.diva-portal.org%2Fsmash%2Fget%2Fdiva2%3A218833%2FFULLTEXT01.pdf&ei=-AQhU_vTBsulkQeT4IHQDw&usg=AFQjCNFLhKymiTGSwBWr-prG1LsriM2udA&sig2=HEbEyhcf_FZMEzfRQqqPsQ&bvm=bv.62922401,d.eW0

The book he lists as Ref 32 (the 1976 edition of Smithells Metals Reference Handbook) is here:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC4QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fworldtracker.org%2Fmedia%2Flibrary%2FEngineering%2FMetallurgy%2FSmithells%2520Metals%2520Reference%2520Book%2520(7th%2520Edition).pdf&ei=gAchU9LyHdDSkQfRj4CoAQ&usg=AFQjCNGsZHjMhb-8NW473q7STxAsIM5raQ&sig2=3uvHS5OGsAXxnfkBCnIBQw&bvm=bv.62922401,d.eW0



lol yea i guess its natural to assume i meant software engineer not like hard sciences engineer. my mistake. thanks for the resources i need all the help i can get.

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March 15, 2014, 12:28:40 AM
 #149

Just so you guys know. I'm going to do the absolute best i can but don't expect the first editions to be perfect. This is going to be a process of trial and error that will get better with time. Of course you can send back older editions and have them remelted if i make newer better moulds in the future and you never know though, maybe the early edition bars will be collectable someday Tongue.

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March 17, 2014, 07:54:55 AM
 #150

does anyone know how well a sketchup .skp file will convert to cad? can i just buy the pro version, save it as an autodesk compatible format and then take that to a local machine shop and get a solid product out of that? or am i going to have to hire an autodesk artist to translate my plans by hand/touch up the autodesk compatible sketchup pro output?

even if you dont know the answer to this question yourself, if you know someone who might, please send them my way.

thanks!

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March 17, 2014, 02:11:19 PM
 #151

http://www.bitcoinmetals.us/ accepts nxt

Nxt tips: NXT-R67P-6BZ2-XWAK-8RHZR | Nxt forum | Nxt Academy | Donate for Nxt at the Universities // BTCD: RVMLrnxYYy7uy8YZo9FcGfXbk1ZMnNifdg
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March 17, 2014, 02:30:02 PM
 #152

does anyone know how well a sketchup .skp file will convert to cad? can i just buy the pro version, save it as an autodesk compatible format and then take that to a local machine shop and get a solid product out of that? or am i going to have to hire an autodesk artist to translate my plans by hand/touch up the autodesk compatible sketchup pro output?

even if you dont know the answer to this question yourself, if you know someone who might, please send them my way.

thanks!

Sorry, I dont know about it.

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March 20, 2014, 02:00:42 AM
 #153

so i was thinking. perhaps one way that i could avoid running afoul of the law on my nxt silver bullion gateway is to emulate a dry cleaners. dry cleaners take in cloths, issue a claim check for those cloths, alter the state of the cloths, and then return them in exchange for the claim check. for some reason unknown to me this claim check is not considered a "security" under financial regulations. Technically it should be, you can leave your cloths at the dry cleaner for an extended period of time and then sell the claim check to someone else and then that person can use the claim check to acquire your cloths, the dry cleaner claim check is a security in every sense of the word but legally it just isn't. So what ever the reason for that is, which i dont know, i can use it to my advantage by emulating that business to a t.

so lets imagine that i am a silver dry cleaners and the melting of silver shot into a bar is the analogue of dry cleaning the cloths, the silver shot is the dirty cloths, and the silver bar is the clean cloths. You buy 10 ounces of silver shot from some online retailer and set the address for delivery as a POBox of my specification. You then use your nxt address to sign the tracking number of the order and send me enough nxt to pay for the "cleaning". The "dirty" silver arrives at my shop and I issue you a claim check. After enough time has passed for me to "clean" the silver that claim check will become redeemable for silver that is now in the form of a bar. From that point on if other people want to trade that claim check amongst each other than thats none of my business. If there are legal ramifications than the onus is on them, it has nothing to do with me.

the nice thing is that there will still be a market for my claim checks but i will never under any circumstances be one of the sellers in that market. so if you want to acquire physical silver than the process will be no more complex for you. you will simply buy one of these claim checks on the market from someone other than me and then reimburse it at my nxt address. The people who deal with ordering silver shot and shipping it to my po box will be in a sense speculators trying to take advantage of arbitrage and for that service they will be affording me a level of legal protection.

one would think that since now there is a new middle man between me and the consumer that this would cause the price to be higher but i dont think this is necessarily the case because there is an advantage to be gained from outsourcing the acquisition of silver shot, a large group of people competing with each other to find cheaper supplies than the other will probably be much more effective at acquiring cheap silver shot than i could be on my own.

tell me what you guys think.

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March 20, 2014, 02:53:56 AM
 #154

so updates for today:

i have my skp file finished for my moulds and i found a plugin that allowed me to export the file as an stl. i spent today sending my stl file out to various machine shops in the area. only have 1 quote back so far, 2000 dollars Shocked but they also said that they tend to deal with bulk orders and put me in contact with a guy who does smaller orders. they feel confident that he will be able to do it for quite a bit less than 2000US. waiting on a reply back from him. if he can bring it in anywhere around 1000 than i will go ahead and give him the greenlight. then all i have to do from there is order the kiln which will be about 1000 after shipping. it'll have to sell quite a few units before i turn a profit, hopefully you guys will help me with that Grin.

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March 20, 2014, 03:00:38 AM
 #155

Wow great work. (exciting times seeing things like this become available!)
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March 20, 2014, 06:15:01 AM
 #156

so updates for today:

i have my skp file finished for my moulds and i found a plugin that allowed me to export the file as an stl. i spent today sending my stl file out to various machine shops in the area. only have 1 quote back so far, 2000 dollars Shocked but they also said that they tend to deal with bulk orders and put me in contact with a guy who does smaller orders. they feel confident that he will be able to do it for quite a bit less than 2000US. waiting on a reply back from him. if he can bring it in anywhere around 1000 than i will go ahead and give him the greenlight. then all i have to do from there is order the kiln which will be about 1000 after shipping. it'll have to sell quite a few units before i turn a profit, hopefully you guys will help me with that Grin.

Sounds very good. Will help you with that -> if you also ship to my place (Germany)  Wink
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March 20, 2014, 06:35:13 AM
 #157

so updates for today:

i have my skp file finished for my moulds and i found a plugin that allowed me to export the file as an stl. i spent today sending my stl file out to various machine shops in the area. only have 1 quote back so far, 2000 dollars Shocked but they also said that they tend to deal with bulk orders and put me in contact with a guy who does smaller orders. they feel confident that he will be able to do it for quite a bit less than 2000US. waiting on a reply back from him. if he can bring it in anywhere around 1000 than i will go ahead and give him the greenlight. then all i have to do from there is order the kiln which will be about 1000 after shipping. it'll have to sell quite a few units before i turn a profit, hopefully you guys will help me with that Grin.

Sounds very good. Will help you with that -> if you also ship to my place (Germany)  Wink

international stuff is on my list of things to look into. first i have to actually get silver bars to sell before i worry about figuring out the logistics of navigating the morass of international regulations. with that said you can always buy some tokens and hold them and they will be intimately tied to the price of physical silver so if the price rises your assets will rise in very accurate parallel. could be a great option for people who live in countries where there is a huge tariff for silver imports.

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March 20, 2014, 07:10:52 AM
 #158

So what ever the reason for that is, which i dont know, i can use it to my advantage by emulating that business to a t.

Get a lawyer for this.
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March 20, 2014, 10:26:36 AM
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I suggest you put a link to this thread in your sig.
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March 20, 2014, 10:30:21 AM
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so i was thinking. perhaps one way that i could avoid running afoul of the law on my nxt silver bullion gateway is to emulate a dry cleaners. dry cleaners take in cloths, issue a claim check for those cloths, alter the state of the cloths, and then return them in exchange for the claim check. for some reason unknown to me this claim check is not considered a "security" under financial regulations. Technically it should be, you can leave your cloths at the dry cleaner for an extended period of time and then sell the claim check to someone else and then that person can use the claim check to acquire your cloths, the dry cleaner claim check is a security in every sense of the word but legally it just isn't. So what ever the reason for that is, which i dont know, i can use it to my advantage by emulating that business to a t.

so lets imagine that i am a silver dry cleaners and the melting of silver shot into a bar is the analogue of dry cleaning the cloths, the silver shot is the dirty cloths, and the silver bar is the clean cloths. You buy 10 ounces of silver shot from some online retailer and set the address for delivery as a POBox of my specification. You then use your nxt address to sign the tracking number of the order and send me enough nxt to pay for the "cleaning". The "dirty" silver arrives at my shop and I issue you a claim check. After enough time has passed for me to "clean" the silver that claim check will become redeemable for silver that is now in the form of a bar. From that point on if other people want to trade that claim check amongst each other than thats none of my business. If there are legal ramifications than the onus is on them, it has nothing to do with me.

the nice thing is that there will still be a market for my claim checks but i will never under any circumstances be one of the sellers in that market. so if you want to acquire physical silver than the process will be no more complex for you. you will simply buy one of these claim checks on the market from someone other than me and then reimburse it at my nxt address. The people who deal with ordering silver shot and shipping it to my po box will be in a sense speculators trying to take advantage of arbitrage and for that service they will be affording me a level of legal protection.

one would think that since now there is a new middle man between me and the consumer that this would cause the price to be higher but i dont think this is necessarily the case because there is an advantage to be gained from outsourcing the acquisition of silver shot, a large group of people competing with each other to find cheaper supplies than the other will probably be much more effective at acquiring cheap silver shot than i could be on my own.

tell me what you guys think.
The analogy with the dry cleaners and talking about 'dirty silver', will make some people chuckle. In the UK dry cleaners are sometimes called, launderettes.  Grin

Anon, what specific reg or law are you concerned with?
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