[Guide] Dogie's Comprehensive Manufacturer Trustworthiness Guide [1st Feb 2016]

[Bicknellski]

There seems to be debate, actually.

=squeak=

Go ahead you first.

Seems you never answered. Here is something to debate.

Bitmaintech vs. BFL where would you put your money?

Wonder why that would be a hard question to answer?

====

Monarch Customer vs. S1, S2 or S3 Customers over the past 12 months... can we do the comparisons?

No debate required.

I'm not here to debate company vs company, and don't have any experience with Bitmaintech in any event.

At this point, I'm just watching the existing debate that you earlier said there isn't.

=squeak=

LOL.

No debate as I said.

Enjoy the thread.

A thread that RATES EACH COMPANY INTO A LIST TOP TO BOTTOM.

Hahaha. Oh boy.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmeuPljmUNHCdEpqX2RmMDFwemJyLURVUWFtZ3J3aGc&usp=sharing#gid=9

[Squeaker]

Easily. We have not accepted any orders for months... I think we discontinued it in May for the 28nm line, almost 1/2 a year ago.  Here, let me quote you a few sentences ago: "The system is weighted heavily on the immediate past" ... so what does the 65nm line have to do with it?  So which is it, is it weighted on the immediate past or is it since last year?  Make up your mind.

Eh? You're saying "we don't use preorders" on the basis that you don't take any sales at all. In that case you should be removed from the list entirely because you're not an ASIC company in the recent few months right? You're business model is currently preorder based and until you make an effort to change that you will remain 1/20 for that category.

By that line of reasoning, any order anybody places that isn't on a plane or truck enroute to you the same day as you make the order, is a pre-order.

Just sayin'

=squeak=

[Squeaker]

LOL.

No debate as I said.

Enjoy the thread.

A thread that RATES EACH COMPANY INTO A LIST TOP TO BOTTOM.

Hahaha. Oh boy.

Better than wasting more time than is deserved on an unreasonable dolt with a personal axe to grind.

Enjoy your rage. o/

=squeak=

[Inaba]

As many as is considered acceptable by customers. Having a backlog of orders behind schedule isn't considered acceptable - unless they're being compensated acceptably. Note thats actually being compensated, not promised to be compensated.

Ok, so who is complaining about the compensation?  They are being given a full refund, more hashrate or a combination of the two.  What more do you want?

Eh? You're saying "we don't use preorders" on the basis that you don't take any sales at all. In that case you should be removed from the list entirely because you're not an ASIC company in the recent few months right? You're business model is currently preorder based and until you make an effort to change that you will remain 1/20 for that category.

We stop taking orders and that's not an "effort to change that?"  LOL... what is an effort to change that then, if not that?

Do you have a link to any cases I can view online so I can review? The papers from Woodlaw schedule show nothing to prevent it being a class action.

Link to cases that don't exist?  What are you talking about?  You do know how class action lawsuits work, right?  A judge needs to grant the class action case and the party bringing the suit has to bring credible evidence that warrants class status.  There's basically nothing so far that would warrant such a status.  But disregarding the speculation, the fact is that it is NOT a class action suit at this time and will NOT be one anytime soon.  That is indisputable fact, not speculation.

And I never said the two weeks was in regards to shipping. Saying no one has ever been banned from the BFL forums for saying anything negative though is pretty laughable though. Every time you ban an innocent they come over here and make a post along the lines of "yeah I just said "when can we expect x y z and got permabanned? :/." I'm not one of those obsessed with your company and I'm not going to turn this into a quote war. I'm not even going to invite anyone else to do so because I don't want this thead to turn into BFL vs the world like the other 10 threads.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/8203-win-butterfly-labs-imperial-monarch.html You paid your customers to discredit me.

You never said two weeks was in regards to shipping?  Then what is it in regards to, pray tell?  As far as being banned from the BFL forums, please provide actual evidence, not your supposition.  Once again, you make claims but you can't actually back them up with evidence.  You provide the evidence and I will explain to you exactly why that person was banned, with evidence to back up my claim.  See, that's the difference between you and me.  I back up my claims with evidence, you have yet failed to do so.

As far as "paying people to discredit you."  What a pompous, self important ass you are.  It was about showing what a joke the trust rating system is, not about you.  I don't care one whit about you. You were just a convenient demonstration piece, being as you are active in spreading false information on the forums, so a logical choice for the demonstration.  The fact that you are upset about it proves my point, so thanks for confirming that the trust system is a broken joke.  How is that discrediting you, if the trust system works?  If the trust system doesn't work, how are you discredited?  It's not about you and never has been.  Deflate your ego a little bit, man.

You've not pointed out any facts, nor presented any evidence. You keep saying "that's a lie that's a lie" yet you're not actually talking about anything, its hard to argue against that :s

Are you serious?  I have presented you with facts based off your guide and you claim I haven't pointed out any facts?  Let me quote my post again.

Delivered miners?  Few ... I mean, it's not like BFL hasen't delivered over 50k miners or anything.  I guess anyone who's delivered less than 50k miners has delivered "few."  Oh wait... that doesn't jive with the rest of your chart.
Uses preorders?   Yes ... O Rly? BFL Hasn't taken preorders in months. Additionally we were and are selling off the shelf miners from the 65nm generation.
Refund Issues?   BFL has been issuing refunds to anyone and everyone who asks for them prior to delivery of their order for awhile now. Prior to that, any order that was over 6 months old was refundable in full.
Communication? We are more open about our process and timeline than just about anyone else in the industry.
Ethics: You've created a special category with our name because you don't like us, plain and simple.

Dogie... those are facts. We've delivered over 50k miners (actually over 60k now).  It's gone from "delivered miners" to "delivered miners recently" now that I've provided the facts that you are wrong.
Uses preorders?  Fact: BFL does not take preorders and hasn't for almost 6 months.
Refund issues: Fact: BFL provides full refunds
Communication: Fact: BFL communicates regularly
Ethics: Fact: You have made a special category just for BFL, making you opinionated and biased.

Those are called facts.  You have presented nothing to the contrary so far except speculation and false information, which are called "not facts."  

[jimmothy]

Easily. We have not accepted any orders for months... I think we discontinued it in May for the 28nm line, almost 1/2 a year ago.  Here, let me quote you a few sentences ago: "The system is weighted heavily on the immediate past" ... so what does the 65nm line have to do with it?  So which is it, is it weighted on the immediate past or is it since last year?  Make up your mind.

Eh? You're saying "we don't use preorders" on the basis that you don't take any sales at all. In that case you should be removed from the list entirely because you're not an ASIC company in the recent few months right? You're business model is currently preorder based and until you make an effort to change that you will remain 1/20 for that category.

By that line of reasoning, any order anybody places that isn't on a plane or truck enroute to you the same day as you make the order, is a pre-order.

Just sayin'

=squeak=

What are you even arguing?

For BFL's current generation of hardware they did exclusively take preorders. That part is not debatable.

They shouldn't get bonus points because they are selling old unprofitable miners to the mentally handicapped.

[ChuckBuck]

Squeaker, I don't believe you are a paid shill, but what is your point and how do you even defend a company with many lawsuits and marks against them?

http://www.woodlaw.com/cases/butterfly-labs-and-bf-labs-inc-bitcoin-miners

http://www.coindesk.com/butterfly-labs-faces-5m-lawsuit-unfulfilled-order/

http://www.coindesk.com/buterfly-labs-accused-buying-blog-hide-negative-search-results/

I mean, a company has a reputation for a reason.

[Blazed]

I do have to agree this guide is not really unbiased. Inaba does actually bring up a valid point about having a BFL rating.  I think BFL should be rated really low, but to have a BFL rating does make it sort of personal.  Also how on earth is a scam company like Avalon rated higher than Bitmain? They renamed after fucking over everyone and all is forgiven?  I think Dogie does a nice job with these guides and stuff, but he has always liked Avalon and his ratings kind of show it imo.  Also you are now paid by AM? so almost impossible to be impartial imo.

[jimmothy]

1. (monarch) The fastest and most power-efficient Bitcoin miner yet
2. Butterfly Labs has shipped more ASIC products than all competitors combined
3. Our facility in Kansas has the largest production capacity of all Bitcoin hardware manufacturers.
4. The Competition at least $ 17.50 /GH
5. 65nm ASIC chip is now powering the majority of the bitcoin network
6. The bottom line is that BFL is the only 28nm chip manufacturer on its 2nd generation ASIC
7. All manufacturers in this space have experienced some degree of delay with their first generation ASIC
8. 28nm products won't begin shipping til year end
9. (monarch) plan to begin shipments in February, 2014
10. Orders are shipped in order date priority so any order placed now should be expected to be delivered in March.
11. We are pioneers of the industry - having manufactured the first commercial Bitcoin mining hardware.
12. November / December    Initial Shipping
13. still on track for December/January
14. As we enter the 28nm era, we're the only competitor with a proven ASIC design in the field.
15. Tape out August 2013
16. Gen1 65nm asics will be around 1w/gh
17. BTC mining, being a zero sum activity, makes it viable and profitable to get as many people to cancel their orders as possible, so your position improves
18. We are so confident in our power consumption that we are offering up 1000 BTC to charity if we miss our power consumption targets by more than 10%
19. Everyone should be aware of the fact that you are allowed to upgrade 1, 2, 3 or 4 Jalepeno's to 1 Single and keep your place in line
20. Individual orders that are less than 6 months old and that paid for the reduced price 600GH or 300GH Monarch will likely not be delayed past the expected delivery date
21. We have developed the most technologically advanced, most power efficient mining chip on the planet by a factor of two.
22. KnC's new 20nm chip isn't even close to our 28nm chip in terms of performance.

24. plan to begin shipments in March 2014
25. However, this is our second generation, so we have much greater clarity on the process
26. meaning the deployment of the Monarch will be delayed about 5 weeks from now
27. it is possible we will begin shipping limited quantities by the end of the week of the 21st(april), it's more likely we will begin shipping the following week, assuming no blocking issues arise.
28. our mining chip is more than 2x efficient than any other chip out
29. The Monarch product line is essentially 3x - 5x more efficient at any comparable hashrate than the competition

Which was true when the advertisements were created.

You seem to think possibly being true at one point in time somehow excuses your false advertising.

You updated the monarch page several times yet never once touched any of the false advertisements.

You even changed the comparison lowering your price from $7.80/gh to $3.66/gh while leaving the competition at $17.50/gh and 2.5w/gh. At the time of that edit the competition was more like $3/gh and 1w/gh.

Also all of your claims about efficiency/performance are bogus regardless whether you knew the chips performance or not. Just because you/your engineers imaginated they would be the most efficient miners doesn't mean they were.

Bitfury's first gen 55nm chips were 0.38w/gh chip level and KNC's 20nm is 0.55w/gh at the wall so again your claims that your chip is far superior is purely false advertising.

Also KNC 0.55w/gh is at 20% above advertised hashrate while your customers are reporting 0.8w/gh at the wall at advertised hashrate.

In case you don't think bullshit comparisons is not false advertising, here's the specific category they made for this type of false advertising:

Inconsistent comparison

In an inconsistent comparison, an item is compared with many others, but only compared with each on the attributes where it wins, leaving the false impression that it is the best of all products, in all ways. One variation on this theme is web sites which also list some competitor prices for any given search, but do not list those competitors which beat their price (or the web site might compare their own sale prices with the regular prices offered by their competitors).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_advertising

23. I have spoken with Theymos, the operator of Bitcointalk, about this and I have his full knowledge and permission to perform this experiment

This is not an advertisement. But regardless, it's true and Theymos confirmed it himself on these forums.

The only thing theymos confirmed is that you are being deceptive as usual.

He asked me whether he could demonstrate that the Trust system is broken. I said that he could, though I didn't know exactly what he was planning, and I don't like what he's doing here. Trust isn't the right way to respond to people whose posts you dislike. If I'd have known that he was going to do this, I would have warned him that it would probably result in significant backlash...

[hdbuck]

Why even bothering arguing with obvious bfl trollz & shillz?! Arent Those 50k sold miners they refering to the 5gh ones they unloaded in wallmarts for 300$ each?! Such ethics, taking advantage of the noobs. BFL: Buy a Fucking Lie
 

[Squeaker]

Squeaker, I don't believe you are a paid shill, but what is your point and how do you even defend a company with many lawsuits and marks against them?

http://www.woodlaw.com/cases/butterfly-labs-and-bf-labs-inc-bitcoin-miners

http://www.coindesk.com/butterfly-labs-faces-5m-lawsuit-unfulfilled-order/

http://www.coindesk.com/buterfly-labs-accused-buying-blog-hide-negative-search-results/

I mean, a company has a reputation for a reason.

Well, because frankly, the accusers don't end up being as credible as they could be, by exaggerating, and intentionally reading what they want into what is being said, rather than what is actually being said.

You know how this bitcoin crowd is here... it is the same thing over and over again... grab the pitchforks whenever things don't go perfectly their way the way they think it should be, and screw the realities of the situations.

We do the same with our politics, and we fuck that up too because we don't see what is actually there.

Yes, BFL fucked up in a lot of ways before. A fact they even admit to. But damn, some troller gets butthurt over being banned, and decides to take it over here to keep a fight going, and we just buy into it, just cuz "we all know BFL is evil incarnate"... and then dumbfucks like the other guy who has his mind so made up he isn't willing to see that BFL got better at some things and give them credit for that, as the there is no debate anymore.

I've been watching the back and forth with Inaba the last few pages, and I gotta say, and I didn't expect to say this, he's starting to sound somewhat justified in his anger right now.

So many are so hell bent on making him out to be evil and a liar, as if they purposely planned for production to not stay on schedule, making them out to be liars when they don't make their anticipated dates, etc etc...

I mean, hell... I was around through the whole initial ASIC pre-order period (I was a day-1 pre-order) and so many just couldn't stop themselves from exaggerating and accusing and trying to get a full blown forum riot going it was ridiculous.

It is no wonder Inaba gets defensive... something I didn't really appreciate so much at the time, getting caught up on the whole hate-fest, but I've had similar crap happen to me too. Didn't matter how up front I was trying to be during the process, things kept going wrong, deadlines kept being missed, other people I was counting on to meet their own deadlines, missed their deadlines, and no matter how much I kept trying to keep people informed of the issues, it didn't matter... I was a liar... and it wasn't at all relevant that I didn't lie, I was simply wrong.

Ya know... ... sighs...

I love the bitcoin community... I really do... but there are so many times now, where it seems we have a lot of the dumbest smart people I've ever encountered around here, and it gets to the point where it is hard to take it seriously anymore.

You guys read, and link to stuff, but you don't even comprehend what the paragraphs you're reading even mean sometimes.

Those 29 points Inaba responded to earlier, were a perfect example.

You guys aren't reasonable or objective. Why should I give your arguments any weight whatsoever?

Anyways... you asked, and there's my answer.

Feel free to totally miss the point and flame or troll on as you're accustomed to.

=squeak=

[ChuckBuck]

Squeaker, I don't believe you are a paid shill, but what is your point and how do you even defend a company with many lawsuits and marks against them?

http://www.woodlaw.com/cases/butterfly-labs-and-bf-labs-inc-bitcoin-miners

http://www.coindesk.com/butterfly-labs-faces-5m-lawsuit-unfulfilled-order/

http://www.coindesk.com/buterfly-labs-accused-buying-blog-hide-negative-search-results/

I mean, a company has a reputation for a reason.

Well, because frankly, the accusers don't end up being as credible as they could be, by exaggerating, and intentionally reading what they want into what is being said, rather than what is actually being said.

You know how this bitcoin crowd is here... it is the same thing over and over again... grab the pitchforks whenever things don't go perfectly their way the way they think it should be, and screw the realities of the situations.

We do the same with our politics, and we fuck that up too because we don't see what is actually there.

Yes, BFL fucked up in a lot of ways before. A fact they even admit to. But damn, some troller gets butthurt over being banned, and decides to take it over here to keep a fight going, and we just buy into it, just cuz "we all know BFL is evil incarnate"... and then dumbfucks like the other guy who has his mind so made up he isn't willing to see that BFL got better at some things and give them credit for that, as the there is no debate anymore.

I've been watching the back and forth with Inaba the last few pages, and I gotta say, and I didn't expect to say this, he's starting to sound somewhat justified in his anger right now.

So many are so hell bent on making him out to be evil and a liar, as if they purposely planned for production to not stay on schedule, making them out to be liars when they don't make their anticipated dates, etc etc...

I mean, hell... I was around through the whole initial ASIC pre-order period (I was a day-1 pre-order) and so many just couldn't stop themselves from exaggerating and accusing and trying to get a full blown forum riot going it was ridiculous.

It is no wonder Inaba gets defensive... something I didn't really appreciate so much at the time, getting caught up on the whole hate-fest, but I've had similar crap happen to me too. Didn't matter how up front I was trying to be during the process, things kept going wrong, deadlines kept being missed, other people I was counting on to meet their own deadlines, missed their deadlines, and no matter how much I kept trying to keep people informed of the issues, it didn't matter... I was a liar... and it wasn't at all relevant that I didn't lie, I was simply wrong.

Ya know... ... sighs...

I love the bitcoin community... I really do... but there are so many times now, where it seems we have a lot of the dumbest smart people I've ever encountered around here, and it gets to the point where it is hard to take it seriously anymore.

You guys read, and link to stuff, but you don't even comprehend what the paragraphs you're reading even mean sometimes.

Those 29 points Inaba responded to earlier, were a perfect example.

You guys aren't reasonable or objective. Why should I give your arguments any weight whatsoever?

Anyways... you asked, and there's my answer.

Feel free to totally miss the point and flame or troll on as you're accustomed to.

=squeak=

Squeaker, would you buy this:

https://products.butterflylabs.com/homepage-new-products/700-gh-bitcoin-mining-card.html

or would you buy this:

https://www.bitmaintech.com/productDetail.htm?pid=00020140916100720380cS1tRWd00684

Simple question.

[dogie]

I do have to agree this guide is not really unbiased. Inaba does actually bring up a valid point about having a BFL rating.  I think BFL should be rated really low, but to have a BFL rating does make it sort of personal.  Also how on earth is a scam company like Avalon rated higher than Bitmain? They renamed after fucking over everyone and all is forgiven?  I think Dogie does a nice job with these guides and stuff, but he has always liked Avalon and his ratings kind of show it imo.  Also you are now paid by AM? so almost impossible to be impartial imo.

Read a few posts up, there is no BFL rating. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=456691.msg8843681#msg8843681

They're not a scam company, my god. They've been delivering in hand hardware for OVER a year now. Not that they were a scam to begin with. Not that Canaan Creative is Avalon. Not that Yifu has been there for 12-15 months.

Bitmain went down because they used preorders on the L1, and long preorders at that. Once they stop using preorders (and Josh, continue selling in hand hardware only), they'll return back to 16/20.

No I'm not paid by AM, but I may be in the future to provide UK and EU returns for the Tube. People are (rightly) complaining that they have to send boxes back to CN/HK to RMA. If I am it will be declared, as like everything else I do in this industry its done in absolute transparency even when its not required.

[Inaba]

Ohhh ChuckBuck... I mean Bicknellski.  Did you post with the wrong account?  Oopsie! lol

Quick, pull a Garr255 and delete it and pretend it wasn't you, then accuse ME of having sock puppets!

[dogie]

Ok, so who is complaining about the compensation?  They are being given a full refund, more hashrate or a combination of the two.  What more do you want?

You're the one that is complaining. You want a higher score in that category than you're entitled to at this point, or any other company gets. Ship more, be patient, receive a higher score for this generation.

We stop taking orders and that's not an "effort to change that?"  LOL... what is an effort to change that then, if not that?

I'm not saying stopping taking preorders isn't a good thing, but you have to replace it with something. The wording of that category might be in the negative but thats because it assume that all companies are actually selling something. Ie if you're not using preorders, you're selling you're main revenue and business model based of in hand hardware. You're developing and taking the risk off the customers backs and putting it on your own. It seems that's what you're heading towards so good on you. But you can't eat the cake until its baked yet - be patient and you'll be rewarded.

You never said two weeks was in regards to shipping?  Then what is it in regards to, pray tell?  As far as being banned from the BFL forums, please provide actual evidence, not your supposition. Once again, you make claims but you can't actually back them up with evidence.  You provide the evidence and I will explain to you exactly why that person was banned, with evidence to back up my claim.  See, that's the difference between you and me.  I back up my claims with evidence, you have yet failed to do so.

As far as "paying people to discredit you."  What a pompous, self important ass you are.  It was about showing what a joke the trust rating system is, not about you.  I don't care one whit about you. You were just a convenient demonstration piece, being as you are active in spreading false information on the forums, so a logical choice for the demonstration.  The fact that you are upset about it proves my point, so thanks for confirming that the trust system is a broken joke.  How is that discrediting you, if the trust system works?  If the trust system doesn't work, how are you discredited?  It's not about you and never has been.  Deflate your ego a little bit, man.

I was referring to the fact that two weeks had become synonymous with BFL and it doesn't just happen overnight. Sure the original statement gets taken out of context and sensationalised, but it gets done so around a core theme which in this case is 'its coming soon, in a bit, bit more, bit more, nearly there.' [Can we let this bit of the discussion thread die now, its hashed out more than a USB miner and gone a bit OT].

There was 290,000 members on the forums at the time. You chose Theymos as one. Why was I chosen as one of the other two? Why was it 'convenient' that I was chosen to be bombarded with negative trust out of all those possibilities? You could have chosen abandoned accounts, your own accounts or accounts you'd made purposely for the 'experiment' as you called it. Instead, you chose me. Why?

[hdbuck]

People tend to have a VERY short memory. Same problem for reelecting politicians, wars, etc.. Bfl is not a scam?! Roflmao.
They disserve every bad ratings. Hell they dont even disserve a 1 in your high quality work and guide dogie.
 They disserve to be pined on the wall and put in scammer quaratine ad eternum.
Avoid them as the plague.
They were the first in bitcoin asic industry to mass scam so they at least get reward with the shit crown and the special verb "bfl'ed". The same way gox had it coming.

Like bitcoin, its a global consensus.

[Inaba]

You're the one that is complaining. You want a higher score in that category than you're entitled to at this point, or any other company gets. Ship more, be patient, receive a higher score for this generation.

I'm pointing out your hypocricy and duplicity.  If you call that complaining, so be it.  I don't really care what you rate BFL on the guide, but please don't mislead newbies and everyone one else by stating that your guide is unbiased and true.  There's nothing unbiased or true about it.  It's all how you feel about the subject and damn the facts.  You complain that BFL misleads people and here you are doing it.  Practice what you preach.

There was 290,000 members on the forums at the time. You chose Theymos as one. Why was I chosen as one of the other two? Why was it 'convenient' that I was chosen to be bombarded with negative trust out of all those possibilities? You could have chosen abandoned accounts, your own accounts or accounts you'd made purposely for the 'experiment' as you called it. Instead, you chose me. Why?

Why should I not pick someone who is actively and prominently spreading false information?  The point is that anyone, no matter how highly or lowly regarded can game the system with ease.  Picking an abandoned account that can't defend itself would not prove the point.  Picking an account, in this case yours, that would vigorously defend itself and still end up with a shitcan rating illustrates how broken the system is.  Or how unbroken it is, perhaps.  At least according to Theymos.  I am sure you, Bickfailski and I disagree, though.

[ChuckBuck]

Ohhh ChuckBuck... I mean Bicknellski.  Did you post with the wrong account?  Oopsie! lol

Quick, pull a Garr255 and delete it and pretend it wasn't you, then accuse ME of having sock puppets!

Lol, sorry to disappoint you Inaba, but Bicknellski and me are two totally different people.  You can check the join dates, post history, trust records etc.  We don't write the same at all!  

I have nothing against you or your company on a personal level.  I mean BFL's track record speaks for itself.

[jimmothy]

You know how this bitcoin crowd is here... it is the same thing over and over again... grab the pitchforks whenever things don't go perfectly their way the way they think it should be, and screw the realities of the situations.

It's really not. There's been a concensus that BFL is as shitty as companies get and we are all willing to wait until they change but they haven't.

Feel free to provide evidence that suggests otherwise.

Yes, BFL fucked up in a lot of ways before. A fact they even admit to. But damn, some troller gets butthurt over being banned, and decides to take it over here to keep a fight going, and we just buy into it, just cuz "we all know BFL is evil incarnate"... and then dumbfucks like the other guy who has his mind so made up he isn't willing to see that BFL got better at some things and give them credit for that, as the there is no debate anymore.

What did BFL get better at besides refunds? They are still false advertising, still missing deadlines by months, still full of shit, still shilling.

So many are so hell bent on making him out to be evil and a liar, as if they purposely planned for production to not stay on schedule, making them out to be liars when they don't make their anticipated dates, etc etc...

I mean, hell... I was around through the whole initial ASIC pre-order period (I was a day-1 pre-order) and so many just couldn't stop themselves from exaggerating and accusing and trying to get a full blown forum riot going it was ridiculous.

You seem hell bent on convincing us shit doesn't smell like shit.

And you're not even explaining why BFL is no longer the shittiest company, your simply raging at people raging.

It is no wonder Inaba gets defensive... something I didn't really appreciate so much at the time, getting caught up on the whole hate-fest, but I've had similar crap happen to me too. Didn't matter how up front I was trying to be during the process, things kept going wrong, deadlines kept being missed, other people I was counting on to meet their own deadlines, missed their deadlines, and no matter how much I kept trying to keep people informed of the issues, it didn't matter... I was a liar... and it wasn't at all relevant that I didn't lie, I was simply wrong.

Being wrong and missing deadlines is fine. When you start costing your customers thousands of dollars it's not fine.

When you miss deadlines by a year as well as not even coming close to specs, then repeat the same fuckup the following year, it begins to look like a lie or at the very least gross incompetence.

You guys read, and link to stuff, but you don't even comprehend what the paragraphs you're reading even mean sometimes.

Those 29 points Inaba responded to earlier, were a perfect example.

Same can be said about yourself about the lack of reading comprehension.

My 29 points were a perfect example of "BFL'ing" which was responded with the classic runaround/deceit josh is known for.

I'm honestly not sure how you saw his response and actually thought to yourself "wow this inaba guy isn't totally full of shit".

If you'd like me to explain point by point I'll do so.

You guys aren't reasonable or objective. Why should I give your arguments any weight whatsoever?

Anyways... you asked, and there's my answer.

Feel free to totally miss the point and flame or troll on as you're accustomed to.

This comes off as incredibly arrogant and ignorant.

I'd suggest taking your own time to educate yourself on the matter before declaring us unreasonable.

[NotLambchop]

dogie, I'm a fan of this thread, but Inaba has a few points.  I know deescalating shit now is unlikely, but...  Don't even know what I'm trying to say

[dogie]

Why should I not pick someone who is actively and prominently spreading false information?  The point is that anyone, no matter how highly or lowly regarded can game the system with ease.  Picking an abandoned account that can't defend itself would not prove the point.  Picking an account, in this case yours, that would vigorously defend itself and still end up with a shitcan rating illustrates how broken the system is.

So as COO of BFL, you preferred to incentivise your forum members to discredit me rather than spend that energy to improve your company and so improve your rating... I have 327 negative ratings thanks to you, does that make your happy?