State of Florida attacks Bitcoin

[odolvlobo]

True, but some people don't speak legalese nor do they want to spend an hour reading it.

Found a more in-depth description of what they alleged happen...
-- snip --
Source: http://www.informationweek.com/security/security-monitoring/florida-sting-nabs-alleged-bitcoin-money-launderers/d/d-id/1113767

There is no reason to read articles about the court documents when you can read the court documents directly:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808113/Def-Espinoza
http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808118/Def-Reid

They are not written in legalese and they are fairly short -- not much longer than that article you linked to. Also, the article never even mentions Special Agent Ponzi.

[BCB]

True, but some people don't speak legalese nor do they want to spend an hour reading it.

Found a more in-depth description of what they alleged happen...
-- snip --
Source: http://www.informationweek.com/security/security-monitoring/florida-sting-nabs-alleged-bitcoin-money-launderers/d/d-id/1113767

There is no reason to read articles about the court documents when you can read the court documents directly:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808113/Def-Espinoza
http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808118/Def-Reid

They are not written in legalese and they are fairly short -- not much longer than that article you linked to.

Every time there has been an arrest (DPR, Shrem, LBC traders) people say they don't speak legalese or some BS so they didn't read the actual criminal complaint. 

These complaints are written at a ~8th grade reading comprehension level. 

Lot of 7th Graders on this forum.

[CoinBrokers]

You're right, I didn't read the complaint because I had already read the article... But thanks for sharing.

[darkmule]

I live pretty close to Miami and this was big news for anyone involved, especially the LocalBitcoins crowds that do alot of local business. I can't believe such a victimless-crime is being prosecuted, and now I'm sure they seized all his assets under the money laundering laws.

Buying stolen credit card numbers is not a victimless crime.

[darkmule]

These complaints are written at a ~8th grade reading comprehension level. 

That's being charitable.  They're written at the reading comprehension level of a pig, since that's who wrote them.

[DaFockBro]

These complaints are written at a ~8th grade reading comprehension level. 

That's being charitable.  They're written at the reading comprehension level of a pig, since that's who wrote them.

HAHAHA

[CoinBrokers]

I live pretty close to Miami and this was big news for anyone involved, especially the LocalBitcoins crowds that do alot of local business. I can't believe such a victimless-crime is being prosecuted, and now I'm sure they seized all his assets under the money laundering laws.

Buying stolen credit card numbers is not a victimless crime.

Where does it say he was even involved in buying stolen credit card numbers? Other than the cops shoving that into the report to give the media something to vilify him and the bitcoins.

[darkmule]

I live pretty close to Miami and this was big news for anyone involved, especially the LocalBitcoins crowds that do alot of local business. I can't believe such a victimless-crime is being prosecuted, and now I'm sure they seized all his assets under the money laundering laws.

Buying stolen credit card numbers is not a victimless crime.

Where does it say he was even involved in buying stolen credit card numbers? Other than the cops shoving that into the report to give the media something to vilify him and the bitcoins.

In the goddamn criminal complaints!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808113/Def-Espinoza
http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808118/Def-Reid

Did you even bother reading them?  Jesus Christ.

[CoinBrokers]

Maybe take a moment to really read the context of the complaints, or are you in 7th grade?

I live pretty close to Miami and this was big news for anyone involved, especially the LocalBitcoins crowds that do alot of local business. I can't believe such a victimless-crime is being prosecuted, and now I'm sure they seized all his assets under the money laundering laws.

Buying stolen credit card numbers is not a victimless crime.

Where does it say he was even involved in buying stolen credit card numbers? Other than the cops shoving that into the report to give the media something to vilify him and the bitcoins.

In the goddamn criminal complaints!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808113/Def-Espinoza
http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808118/Def-Reid

Did you even bother reading them?  Jesus Christ.

[jongameson]

it sure is cannabis.  tell people not and they'll be like.  WELL MY DOLLARS ARE CANNABIS FUCK U

[pungopete468]

If someone went into a jewelry store and told the jeweler, "I got this money from buying stolen credit card numbers" then they bought a gold watch from the jeweler:

Is the jeweler guilty of money laundering for selling them the gold watch?

Yes.

It's a stupid law but they would be guilty of money laundering by "cleaning dirty money."

[anth0ny]

I live pretty close to Miami and this was big news for anyone involved, especially the LocalBitcoins crowds that do alot of local business. I can't believe such a victimless-crime is being prosecuted, and now I'm sure they seized all his assets under the money laundering laws.

Buying stolen credit card numbers is not a victimless crime.

However, there were no actual stolen credit card numbers involved in this alleged crime.

[anth0ny]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808113/Def-Espinoza
http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808118/Def-Reid

Heh, they used the "DPR Seized Coins" address (in all caps) as the example.

[erik777]

I live pretty close to Miami and this was big news for anyone involved, especially the LocalBitcoins crowds that do alot of local business. I can't believe such a victimless-crime is being prosecuted, and now I'm sure they seized all his assets under the money laundering laws.

Buying stolen credit card numbers is not a victimless crime.

However, there were no actual stolen credit card numbers involved in this alleged crime.

It will be interesting if the defendant testifies that he can always tell when someone is lying, so he knew the buyer didn't know anyone in Russia. 

Life is easier if you don't let people know that you know they are lying.  With that philosophy, one no longer has to hear the child-like response, "prove I'm lying". 

[DannyHamilton]

I live pretty close to Miami and this was big news for anyone involved, especially the LocalBitcoins crowds that do alot of local business. I can't believe such a victimless-crime is being prosecuted, and now I'm sure they seized all his assets under the money laundering laws.

Buying stolen credit card numbers is not a victimless crime.

However, there were no actual stolen credit card numbers involved in this alleged crime.

If a customer informs a gun shop that they need a buy a gun so they can rob bank, and the gun shop assists the customer in acquiring the gun, the gun shop has committed a crime even if the customer is stopped before they get to the bank and commit their crime.

Robbing a bank at gunpoint isn't a victimless crime, so knowingly assisting the thief in acquiring a gun for the purpose of robbing the bank isn't a victimless crime even if there is no actual bank robbery that occurs.

[erik777]

I live pretty close to Miami and this was big news for anyone involved, especially the LocalBitcoins crowds that do alot of local business. I can't believe such a victimless-crime is being prosecuted, and now I'm sure they seized all his assets under the money laundering laws.

Buying stolen credit card numbers is not a victimless crime.

However, there were no actual stolen credit card numbers involved in this alleged crime.

If a customer informs a gun shop that they need a buy a gun so they can rob bank, and the gun shop assists the customer in acquiring the gun, the gun shop has committed a crime even if the customer is stopped before they get to the bank and commit their crime.

Robbing a bank at gunpoint isn't a victimless crime, so knowingly assisting the thief in acquiring a gun for the purpose of robbing the bank isn't a victimless crime even if there is no actual bank robbery that occurs.

The entrapment defense in the United States has evolved mainly through case law. Two competing tests exist for determining whether entrapment has taken place, known as the "subjective" and "objective" tests. The "subjective" test looks at the defendant's state of mind; entrapment can be claimed if the defendant had no "predisposition" to commit the crime. The "objective" test looks instead at the government's conduct; entrapment occurs when the actions of government officers would usually have caused a normally law-abiding person to commit a crime. (wikipedia)

Because this is based on a lie by the undercover agent with no material criminality such as drugs being offered, the state will have a hard time proving that the defendant "knew" it was a crime.  At that point, the state will likely bring up a burden of "suspicion"; but, being based on a lie it is itself subjective and likely to become an issue in a criminal defence.  Can a person really be convicted with a 1st degree felony for failing to be suspicious of a statement that is in fact a lie (not truly criminal)?  

EDIT: IANAL
 

[anth0ny]

I live pretty close to Miami and this was big news for anyone involved, especially the LocalBitcoins crowds that do alot of local business. I can't believe such a victimless-crime is being prosecuted, and now I'm sure they seized all his assets under the money laundering laws.

Buying stolen credit card numbers is not a victimless crime.

However, there were no actual stolen credit card numbers involved in this alleged crime.

If a customer informs a gun shop that they need a buy a gun so they can rob bank, and the gun shop assists the customer in acquiring the gun, the gun shop has committed a crime even if the customer is stopped before they get to the bank and commit their crime.

Robbing a bank at gunpoint isn't a victimless crime, so knowingly assisting the thief in acquiring a gun for the purpose of robbing the bank isn't a victimless crime even if there is no actual bank robbery that occurs.

But what if there is no actual bank? Who's the victim?

In this case there isn't even an intended victim or planned victim or attempted victim. The alleged victim is imaginary.

It's generally accepted in philosophy that to "know" something implies that the belief is actually true. (See http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemology/)

[jj30]

You missed a key part of the story where the undercover agent told the bitcoin seller that he was going to use the bitcoins to purchase stolen credit card information.  Thats the key part in this case, and probably the only reason an arrest was/could be made.  It's one thing to exchange bitcoins for cash, it's another thing to do it when the buyer specifically tells you he intends to use the bitcoins for illegal reasons and you STILL go through with the trade.

"According to court documents, the agent told Michelhack that he wanted to use the Bitcoins to purchase stolen credit cards online. "
http://krebsonsecurity.com/2014/02/florida-targets-high-dollar-bitcoin-exchangers/


Like I said earlier, it's a legal form of entrapment and it's something law enforcements do for all sorts of illegal things.  The issue here isn't so much bitcoin , but selling bitcoin to someone who told you they would be used for a crime.

Your link has more details. Cops are still jerks, for entrapment. Luring people to commit crimes then arresting them is always going to be wrong in my book, but you are right that the issue is that cops are jerks ... but this is not an outright attack on the bitcoin itself.

Thank you for your link.

[erik777]

I live pretty close to Miami and this was big news for anyone involved, especially the LocalBitcoins crowds that do alot of local business. I can't believe such a victimless-crime is being prosecuted, and now I'm sure they seized all his assets under the money laundering laws.

Buying stolen credit card numbers is not a victimless crime.

However, there were no actual stolen credit card numbers involved in this alleged crime.

It will be interesting if the defendant testifies that he can always tell when someone is lying, so he knew the buyer didn't know anyone in Russia.

The defendant (and/or his lawyer) is an idiot if he testifies at all. Doubly so if he thinks it matters whether or not he can tell when someone is lying.

The sad reality is that he's being pressured to plead, which is how the vast majority of criminal cases end up.  There are many cases where people plead, and were later proven innocent (e.g., through dna testing). 

But, you're right that he's unlikely to testify.  Nevertheless, if it goes to trial, I think defence should focus on the case being based on a lie fabricated by the undercover, for the reasons stated above, including entrapment and to challenge the "burden of suspicion". 

There are a minority who are good at detecting lies, as there are a minority who have a lot of memories when they were very young (like 2).  I've learned that the majority who cannot do either tends to believe that no one can do either, despite these phenomenons being proven. 

In any case, defence wouldn't need to prove that he knew he was lying, but only that he could believe that he knew he was lying, because the case is built around the state of the mind of the accused.  Read the affidavit.  With a jury, it would be hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he didn't believe he was lying because nearly all of us at one time or another was certain when someone was lying to us.  Can you detect a bragger? 

[DannyHamilton]

If a customer informs a gun shop that they need a buy a gun so they can rob bank, and the gun shop assists the customer in acquiring the gun, the gun shop has committed a crime even if the customer is stopped before they get to the bank and commit their crime.

Robbing a bank at gunpoint isn't a victimless crime, so knowingly assisting the thief in acquiring a gun for the purpose of robbing the bank isn't a victimless crime even if there is no actual bank robbery that occurs.

But what if there is no actual bank? Who's the victim?

Robbing a bank at gunpoint isn't a victimless crime, so knowingly assisting the thief in acquiring a gun for the purpose of robbing the bank isn't a victimless crime even if there is no actual bank robbery that occurs.