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Author Topic: Posting guidelines for [WTS] Physical Goods - Marketplace  (Read 628 times)
Steamtyme
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July 01, 2018, 09:05:48 AM
Last edit: May 18, 2019, 06:26:16 PM by Steamtyme
Merited by redsn0w (10), suchmoon (5), frodocooper (5), LoyceV (4), malevolent (3), bones261 (2), xandry (1), hedgy73 (1), Spazzer (1), ChiBitCTy (1), Coolcryptovator (1), DireWolfM14 (1)
 #1

[WTS] Posting guidelines for physical goods

Following these simple steps will give you the best chance at generating interest in your item. Failure to do so will create delays in finding a buyer and foster an environment of distrust.

Please list all relevant information in the OP this includes:
  • Description of item for sale
  • Asking Price and acceptable currency
  • Shipping- Where from, any restrictions, whether or not it is included in sale price
  • Methods of payment accepted- Standard practice is Forum Trusted Escrow, Additional Escrow List with Ranking, or Paypal Goods and Service is also generally accepted
  • Item condition

A picture is worth a 1000 words

What has come to be expected to avoid fraudulent sellers is photographic proof, you should have photos fit this format:
  • Clearly show the item for sale
  • Include a handwritten note containing a date stamp and your forum user name. [1]Including the hash of the latest Bitcoin block and its associated block height in the note will also verify that at that moment in time the goods are in the sellers posession
  • If there is hashrate related information screenshots are nice to include

Example:

I understand that with some ranks pictures do not show up. Post the link anyways as a higher rank member can quote you and the photos will then be displayed.

Things to avoid:
This is useful for both buyers and sellers, and contains practices considered red flags.
  • Creating a self-moderated topic for your sale- This applies to newer accounts, should you feel you are being trolled report the posts to moderator. Older accounts if you do self-moderate deleted posts should be quoted to remain transparent  
  • Do not create locked topics requesting PM's or communication via other platforms. This again is for transparency

After the sale
  • Update the thread title as either Sold, Closed, or something suitable
  • Post in the thread the outcome, this helps provide insight as to whether a valid trade transaction place
  • Lock the thread once finished, and updated. Once all relevant information has been shared there is no need to leave it open, as it may get bumped months later. Do not lock the topic if there is still a discussion/dispute ongoing as this can be seen as shady or untrustworthy behavior

No one's buying it

It happens to all of us, we think something is worth selling but the world disagrees. Here are some things to consider to help keep the boards clean.
  • You may need to reduce the price, or adjust other terms to find a buyer
  • Might need to move to another platform for the sale - This is the first place I go to sell things generally, but if it doesn't move I'll try local markets or that Bay full of fees
  • There is no limit on how long an ad can be posted but if you've been bumping it for 2 weeks and no one's biting, this is a good indication it's time to reevaluate

[1] This is a more valid form of proof of possession, as I could take a picture with a date 6 months from now. Using this I could then post an ad, despite having sold the equipment months before. Of course the use of Escrow will help protect against these situations.



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July 01, 2018, 09:06:08 AM
Last edit: May 18, 2019, 06:28:43 PM by Steamtyme
 #2

Reserved for updates.

Edited:
OP to include suggestion from Frodocooper, and to ad an after the sale section.
Added second Escrow list
Added " No one's buying it" Thanks to the suggestion from ChiBitCTy

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July 01, 2018, 09:06:16 AM
 #3

This is by no means perfect or complete. Feel free to suggest any edits or additions you would like.

I'm interested in suggestions from others on how someone can provide proof/validity to hosted machines?

I decided to do a post for this as I probably post most of these points as questions on shady ads, 10x a week, and see likely 10x more that others post on. Not that they always get read but it might make a nice sticky in the Computer Hardware section.


I don't really care if my post goes there or if someone creates a better formatted or more visually appealing post. I just feel that it would be a nice tool in the community policing itself.

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July 01, 2018, 01:59:22 PM
Merited by Quickseller (1)
 #4

  • Include a handwritten note containing with a date stamp and your forum user name

Including the hash of the latest Bitcoin block and its associated block height in the note — in addition to the timestamp and forum user name — may add credence in proving that the said goods did exist and was in the possession of the seller at the time of that particular block.
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July 02, 2018, 01:34:53 AM
Merited by The Pharmacist (1)
 #5

I'm not surprised at all you would take it in a more technical direction for validity.

Is this inline with the information you are suggesting?
https://www.blockchain.com/en/btc/blocks

I don't see anything inherently wrong with that, it is really another timestamp to within approximately 10 minutes. For the most part I don't think it would be a necessary addition but it could be a nice follow up question if you don't trust the photos that have been provided. For instance say you come across a sale and then notice the same images in another sale thread, you could request this to validate the authentic seller.

I don't think I will add it in as a base guideline for ADS, unless the current format proves to be ineffective. If it does become necessary I would maybe only ask for the last 6 characters of the Hash, to keep the note clean.

Once I know if the link is the information you were suggesting I will find a place for it, maybe under  a "valid follow up questions" heading or something.

Thanks for the idea.




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July 03, 2018, 03:31:10 AM
Merited by suchmoon (5), Steamtyme (1)
 #6

It doesn't have to be from a specific blockchain explorer. The hash of the block itself is sufficient.

The rationale behind this is that there is no way to predict the hash of a particular block until that block itself has been mined. In this way, we know that a message containing the hash of a particular block could not have been created any earlier than the block itself. Consequently, the earliest possible time that the goods (with the accompanying message) could have been in existence is the time when that particular block was mined. Note, however, that this is only useful in showing proof of existence of the goods. It does not reliably show proof of ownership. The latter requires more robust methods of verification.

My preferred method of proving ownership of the goods is to conduct a video call using Signal. Forum PM would be used to initiate contact with the seller, to exchange Signal phone numbers, and to perform out-of-band key verification — i.e., verifying each other's Signal safety numbers — before initiating the video call. The goods must be clearly shown in the video call, together with a message containing the seller's forum user name. Since a video call takes place in real time, there would be no need for a timestamp. I would then prefer to limit all further correspondence with the seller to within Signal, as our communications would be protected by Signal's robust end-to-end encryption. (If the seller prefers to send pictures of the goods instead of showing the goods via a video call, then a message containing a timestamp and the hash of the latest Bitcoin block would be required to be shown alongside the goods.)
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July 03, 2018, 03:46:13 PM
 #7

It doesn't have to be from a specific blockchain explorer.

Understood, just making sure I knew what you meant. I'll update OP later to include that as another method of verification.

Quote
The rationale behind this is that there is no way to predict the hash of a particular block until that block itself has been mined.

I was thinking on that and it makes sense. If someone was playing the long con game for whatever reason; they could take a bunch of photos of gear they owned at one point with different date stamps. Using those they could try and fake possession in the future.

Quote
My preferred method of proving ownership of the goods is to conduct a video call using Signal.

I'm unfamiliar with Signal, but it sounds like it's worked for you. I think that leaving some information in the sale thread is good. I like the idea of people announcing they have reached an arrangement for the sale, and adding in the end how the deal went. I'm not interested in people sharing all details of a sale, negotiating and transaction ID's aren't necessary unless there is a dispute.

Thanks again for the input, I'm glad your information about Signal and verification is near the top of the thread, I'm sure others will find it helpful as well.

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July 11, 2018, 02:50:27 AM
 #8

Still open to input.

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May 03, 2019, 02:42:45 PM
 #9

I'm being asked by various members in the Computer Hardware forum to post ALL of my offers into one topic instead of creating separate topics per offer.

To me, this is going to make it very difficult to manage, because I am a broker who has multiple brands and models and multiple buyers and sellers. Putting all my items into one post will make the Computer Hardware forum almost useless for me.

Others are afraid that if I post separate topics for each offer that I have, it will clog up Page 1, but to me, making separate posts makes it much more relevant and competitive in a good way. Not in a bad way. They think I'm trying to push down other people's posts to Page 2, but that is not my intention.

Honestly, I think older post SHOULD get naturally pushed to Page 2 because they are... OLDER. But what these people are trying to tell me is that they want all my offers to be in one post. This will quickly cause my single post to get out of hand. It will soon have hundreds of replies. and will quickly become the #1 post on the Computer Hardware forum at all times.

I don't think you guys want that to happen, do you? You say you want the Computer Hardware forum to be "clean", but in my opinion, posting multiple offers into a single post will make the forum a jumbled mess and very confusing for the OP.
 
The Forum guidelines say:

Quote
After the sale...
- Update the thread title as either Sold, Closed, or something suitable
- Post in the thread the outcome, this helps provide insight as to whether a valid trade transaction place
- Lock the thread once finished, and updated. Once all relevant information has been shared there is no need to leave it open, as it may get bumped months later.

So, by abiding by those guidelines, my post will either be updated multiple times per day, forcing it to be the first listing in the forum every day, or it will be impossible for me to lock it and let it die.

Which do you want. We can't have both, we can't have all or nothing. We need a compromise.

I specialize in business development for ASIC mining hardware manufacturing companies: https://www.scottofford.com/
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May 03, 2019, 03:00:03 PM
Last edit: May 04, 2019, 01:11:38 AM by Steamtyme
Merited by frodocooper (3)
 #10

Hey thanks for reaching out here. Not going to lie I've been giving this some thought and was going to start a discussion around it this weekend when I had more time.

To be clear my stance is a separate post for each offering is essentially spam. You should be actively trying to find a way to group things together this will be better for everyone involved. I remember seeing several threads for L3+'s I think and the only difference really was the location they were. I'll take more time this weekend to explore your structure and site but here's my initial thoughts.

First you should make the thread in "Services" that I originally suggested to you some time back. This can have an OP explaining what you do, how you broker the sales, and how to use your website. Put whatever sales data you want in there but it would be a good anchor point for your business to maintain it's own thread. Use this as you will, you can fill it entirely with your offerings or links to the threads where they are for sale and your website.

Next you can at least try and group your items by algorithm. Whatever it is can be the thread title, and in the OP - which can be updated as much as you like you can change out the offerings. List and group them however you want there; I would go by make. This would be much more manageable for people to see than your current amount of listings. I don't think this will be a jumbled mess if you put the effort into organizing and editing the OP(and replies if needed) with your offerings, you just have to find a way to make it work.

Going further I would probably just do 1 thread, maybe 2. Create your OP and then reserve the next 4 replies, using these to group the gear you have for sale. The OP could link to each Algo, and it would be in 1 place that you could bump daily. You worry about your posts getting out of hand but it wouldn't be that bad as you aren't haggling through the site you are trying to direct them to your sales platform. It also wouldn't matter, regardless if it's the most active topic it only gets bumped to the top by posts or your own bump every 24 hours.

The thread would be active as long as you have items to sell, or choose to continue to do business; so no need to lock or let die until that time.

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May 03, 2019, 09:01:34 PM
 #11

lol Signal.
y the feds need to know ur biz?

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May 03, 2019, 11:55:10 PM
 #12

It is good to have you guidelines after some complaints on Phisycal goods recent weeks. It will help both unexperienced buyers and sellers to make their threads/ posts better. Sellers can learn from the guideline and make their posts/ threads more transparently and impressively to catch eyeballs of potential buyers. Sellers can learn from the guideline to have better overview on posts/ threads they see in Physical goods in terms of transparency, proofs of products, and eventually can make better choices.

I have only one question (maybe off topic a bit): Can we start a topic without self-moderated option, then can edit with the self-moderated option later?". I tried myself with Additional Options ... but it does not display self-moderated option when I edit my thread.

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May 04, 2019, 01:16:01 AM
 #13

I don't think you change the thread to self-moderated after you have created it. You need to make that choice at the beginning. In a sales thread I hate seeing them self-moderated, just my opinion. If you do go that route, I would suggest maintaining a log of deleted replies using the "code" function(#). It's just for transparency sake, as most self modded sales threads do so to delete legitimate questions or concerns.

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May 18, 2019, 04:07:58 PM
Last edit: May 18, 2019, 05:49:47 PM by Steamtyme
 #14

Added a second Escrow list I came across to the OP, so I figured why not give this a bump for those who haven't noticed it before.
Changed the title as well.

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May 18, 2019, 06:06:59 PM
Last edit: Today at 12:43:58 AM by ChiBitCTy
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 #15

I spend most of my time in the Collectibles board, but I would imagine this would apply to any Marketplace board..

If you list an item that doesn't sell, give it a couple bumps and move on (to Ebay/Offer UP/Craigslist etc). There is limited space on the boards, and continuously bumping items for months and even years on end is only clogging up the boards valuable space (I'd also recommend looking up the definition of Insanity).  This is especially relevant for the Collectibles board when you're listing items that aren't 100% on topic (not cryptocurrency related collectibles).  
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May 19, 2019, 10:12:17 AM
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 #16

I think this would make a good candidate for an unofficial subforum rules stickie.

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May 19, 2019, 05:00:59 PM
 #17

Do not create locked topics requesting PM's or communication via other platforms.
I cannot think of a legitimate reason why someone would do this.

If you will not be active on the forum to check your thread very often, you can provide alternative contact methods and a note on your OP that you may not quickly see any replies.

I have seen many people who are transparently scamming do exactly this, sometimes with fake reviews. The warning shown on OPs who have negative trust shown to guests is a step in the right direction, but I think it should be a rule that active sales threads that are locked are not allowed. This should not prevent locking a thread while a sale is "paused",  "on hold", or "temporarily out of inventory".

Maybe a good solution would be in order to lock a thread, the OP must select a choice of if his transaction is "finished" or if he "intends to resume the transaction at a later time". An "automod" message (similar to what is used on Reddit) could be prominently displayed.

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May 19, 2019, 06:00:13 PM
 #18

~snip~
I added a section at the end. Feel free to let me know if you feel I missed something. Thanks for the suggestion

I think this would make a good candidate for an unofficial subforum rules stickie.
Glad you find the content worthwhile. I believe around the time I created it a Mod from a different board had PM'd about getting it added. Nothing ever happened with that so I use it as a link when I find threads that are lacking in the marketplace.

~snip~
I have seen some people who use the lock-topic to try and avoid spam. I still think it's best to just report posts to be dealt with, because most are using this as an attempt to scam users. I'd personally like to see no unlocking of locked-topics or self modding in sales threads, they're overwhelmingly scammy. Some may find this to restrictive, so in the meantime I just try to spread awareness.

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