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 Author Topic: Erosion of merit. How to prevent it.  (Read 407 times)
Coolcryptovator
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 July 07, 2018, 07:01:15 AMLast edit: July 07, 2018, 07:29:24 AM by Coolcryptovator

Disclaimer: I don't know if another post similar. I haven't seen. If you know reply here I will lock this thread.

As well we know once merit system was implement then smerit wasn't 1merit=0.5 merit for all member's.
Quote
The spendable amount was calculated based on your current rank and the number of activity points you earned in the last year. A Legendary member who hasn't posted in the last year would still be Legendary, but would not have any spendable merit.
.

From above quote we can see that every one didn't receive smerit half of his merit initially. This is one reasone for erosion of merit.
Anyway this is already gone. Nothing we can do. Current merit calculation is 1=0.5 .
Quote
when someone sends you merit points, half of those points can be sent by you to other people.
Now I will calculate up to end user, if I have 1 smerit initially, then I can send it 1 user. Now he have 0.5 smerit. So will try to explain below up to end user.
(User)  :  Me > user1> user2> user3> user4  >  user5>>>
(Smerit): 1  >> 0.5 >   0.25  > 0.125> 0.0625> 0.03125>>>>

In this calculation up to 5th user have 0.0625 smerit.
So in a result day by day merit is erosion. Thousand of people joined this forum daily. If like this running merit system then it will be impossible to rank up for newcomer, even he is good poster.
Prevent merit Erosion or vanish it's possible to change smerit circulation system. Now it is 1merit=0.5smerit . I think it can be implement 1merit=1smerit so that merit system will not erosion or vanish.

Now you may think there is merit source to recover for erosion merit. Currently up to now
Quote
There are 82 merit sources with a total merit generation of up to 18900 sMerit per 30 days
I think it's not enough for recover. Because million members here ( I don't know exactly how many total member's here). Check Merit source status

Solution:
For me there is 2 solution.
1) Implement smreit to 1merit=1smerit
2) Inrease merit source and generate more merit I mean increase smerit limit.

Merit system was implement for prevent spam and keep this forum clean. So it should be continue without erosion for better result.

It's my own opinion you may disagree with me. Share your though is much appriceate.

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r1s2g3
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 July 07, 2018, 07:22:35 AMMerited by LoyceV (1)

Disclaimer: I don't know if another post similar. I haven't seen. If you know reply here I will lock this thread.

As well we know once merit system was implement then smerit wasn't 1merit=0.5 merit for all member's.
Quote
The spendable amount was calculated based on your current rank and the number of activity points you earned in the last year. A Legendary member who hasn't posted in the last year would still be Legendary, but would not have any spendable merit.
.

From above quote we can see that every one didn't receive smerit half of his merit initially. This is one reasone for erosion of merit.
Anyway this is already gone. Nothing we can do. Current merit calculation is 1=0.5 .
Quote
when someone sends you merit points, half of those points can be sent by you to other people.
Now I will calculate up to end user, if I have 1 smerit initially, then I can send it 1 user. Now he have 0.5 smerit. So will try to explain below up to end user.
(User)  :  Me > user1> user2> user3> user4  >  user5>>>
(Smerit): 1  >> 0.5 >   0.25  > 0.125> 0.0625> 0.03125>>>>

So In a result day by day merit is erosion. Thousand of people joined this forum daily. If like this running merit system then it will be impossible to rank up for newcomer, even he is good poster.
Prevent merit Erosion or vanish it's possible to change smerit circulation system. Now it is 1merit=0.5smerit . I think it can be implement 1merit=1smerit so that merit system will not erosion or vanish.

Merit source status

Look Like you are weak in Mathematics. If 1 Merit generate 1 sMerit , Then you can have infinite supply of Merit by Just getting 1 Merit.
A got 1 Merit so he has default 1sMerit.
A decided it to give it to B, Now B has 1 Merit and 1 smerit.
Now both can do to and froth to game the system and in between they can introduce C,D,E and so on.

Edit:  Merit Sources are replenished with sMerits ( sMerits created without getting any Merit) to solve this erosion problem.

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Coolcryptovator
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 July 07, 2018, 07:40:14 AMLast edit: July 07, 2018, 07:57:25 AM by CoolcryptovatorMerited by Theb (1)

Look Like you are weak in Mathematics. If 1 Merit generate 1 sMerit , Then you can have infinite supply of Merit by Just getting 1 Merit.
A got 1 Merit so he has default 1sMerit.
A decided it to give it to B, Now B has 1 Merit and 1 smerit.
Now both can do to and froth to game the system and in between they can introduce C,D,E and so on.

Edit:  Merit Sources are replenished with sMerits ( sMerits created without getting any Merit) to solve this erosion problem.

May be you are right I am not much experienced in math. But I think you reply before complete my post. On subject you can see
Quote
Re: Erosion of merit.( posted by mistake. Not yet ready for post )
. I think I calculate right. It's user calculation. Not from merit source. I will request you for read now. Btw thanks for your reply.

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 July 07, 2018, 07:52:34 AMMerited by Foxpup (4), LoyceV (1)

Lets put this myth to bed. The forum is awash with awardable sMerit. This morning I have almost 200  of them to use to reward posters. If I double my usual award to 2 sMerits, that is 100 decent posts that I have to find. Things are gradually improving, but that is probably about 2 days of hard work. Also, remember that those 200 will generate another 200 for the community to award as they are used. Source merits are also replaced 30 days after I award them. I'm just one merit source, and probably not a major one either.

I would be grateful if posters could stop complaining about a great, and essential, system, and looks at their posting. Be honest with yourself - would you give most of your posts any accolades. Are you just re-posting other peoples' ideas, are you just posting extracts from published articles with any comment, can people even understand what you have written. Also there are some bad posting habits - have you included a stupid image that causes people to skip over your comment, have you included a massive redundant quote, so that people can't even see your comment, is your post a useless necro-bump?

Please give the responsible source merits a chance to do their unpaid work. Don't clog up the threads so that decent posts don't get read. Stop creating threads that are repeats of the same tired old comments. Please make good and constructive posts so that Bitcoin Talk can take a leading place in the golden age that is being created at the moment.

And if you know your English is weak, stop posting on the English boards, and work on improving it. If people can't understand you, then you will just end up on ignore, no matter how good the sentiment behind your comments.

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Coolcryptovator
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 July 07, 2018, 08:18:41 AM

Lets put this myth to bed. The forum is awash with awardable sMerit. This morning I have almost 200  of them to use to reward posters. If I double my usual award to 2 sMerits, that is 100 decent posts that I have to find. Things are gradually improving, but that is probably about 2 days of hard work. Also, remember that those 200 will generate another 200 for the community to award as they are used. Source merits are also replaced 30 days after I award them. I'm just one merit source, and probably not a major one either.

I would be grateful if posters could stop complaining about a great, and essential, system, and looks at their posting. Be honest with yourself - would you give most of your posts any accolades. Are you just re-posting other peoples' ideas, are you just posting extracts from published articles with any comment, can people even understand what you have written. Also there are some bad posting habits - have you included a stupid image that causes people to skip over your comment, have you included a massive redundant quote, so that people can't even see your comment, is your post a useless necro-bump?

Please give the responsible source merits a chance to do their unpaid work. Don't clog up the threads so that decent posts don't get read. Stop creating threads that are repeats of the same tired old comments. Please make good and constructive posts so that Bitcoin Talk can take a leading place in the golden age that is being created at the moment.

And if you know your English is weak, stop posting on the English boards, and work on improving it. If people can't understand you, then you will just end up on ignore, no matter how good the sentiment behind your comments.

I will not argue with you as well as you are well reputed member on this forum. I didn't complain here. I just discuss the current situation. I didn't post other people idea honestly. I haven't seen this kind of discussion. I have mention on top of my thread. I just post only what I think. If smae think around your mind then what can I do?  Regarding my image posting I have remember that I have post an image to Welsh merit source application. That's I think was not necessary to post. My other thread with image for scam ICO or connected account. I use picture to clarify easily. Regarding my post I always try to prevent spam from me and always try to fight with spammer and scammer. For that reason if I got negetive trust no problem for me. I am not saying that I am 100% pure. May some of my post low quality. But honestly I don't like get idea from other or spamming on forum. Regarding English, million people here from various country. All their native language is English? All the member's here graduate? Yes I am weak in English. For me if some one can explain successfully any thing in English, I have not complain about him. If I will not post on English then how can I improve myself?  If I make post then may be some one will mention my wrong and I can correction myself.

Anyway i respect you always and I will. Your reply is much appreciated for me.

If you find similar idea that posted recently you can give the link. So I will delete my post.

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 July 07, 2018, 08:27:58 AM

>..<

Sorry if you thought that my comment was addressed to you. It was a more general protest about the current problems on the board. I can read your English fairly quickly, and I can understand your points, so obviously the English part doesn't apply to you. The post was made after a frustrating period of hunting for posts to merit, and I apologise if you have taken my general comments personally, I guess that is a reasonable reactions, and I should have put some qualifications in my post.

The images thing is a personal annoyance, and it comes from my belief that this is a serious discussion and education forum. There are some leisure and relaxation boards here, and I think those are the places for such images. I appreciate that my view is not a popular one, and many posters in a variety of forums seem to have large libraries of images to add to threads.

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LoyceV
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 July 07, 2018, 08:36:38 AM

Look Like you are weak in Mathematics. If 1 Merit generate 1 sMerit , Then you can have infinite supply of Merit by Just getting 1 Merit.
May be you are right I am not much experienced in math.
I'm confused: you say you're not much experienced in math, but you can do this:
(User)  :  Me > user1> user2> user3> user4  >  user5>>>
(Smerit): 1  >> 0.5 >   0.25  > 0.125> 0.0625> 0.03125>>>>
If you can do that, it doesn't take a math genius to figure out:
user1 > user2 > user1 > user2 > user1 > user2 > user1 > user2 > user1 > user2 > user1 > user2 > user1 > user2 > user1 > user2 would lead to 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > if each Merit gets them 1 sMerit too.

The current system, in which each user can earn sMerit to give, based on his own post quality, is beautiful in simplicity. Spammers' sMerit dries up, and the assumption is that users with good posts will also be good judges of other users' posts.

Solution:
~
2) Inrease merit source and generate more merit I mean increase smerit limit.
Theymos already said it wouldn't surprise him if a year after introduction we'll have 100-200 Merit sources.

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 July 07, 2018, 08:51:56 AM

Theymos already said it wouldn't surprise him if a year after introduction we'll have 100-200 Merit sources.

I think Theymos has got a really difficult task in selecting merit sources. There is so much subjective influence in the awarding of merits. My dislike of heavy formatting, images, and long unsnipped quotes are examples. As I stated, there is no shortage of sMerits, but there is a shortage of time, and more responsible merit sources would mean that there is more time available for post hunting. I think that a better solution is the removal of the very low value pollution on the boards, and this would allow the existing sources to work more efficiently. Useless necro-bumping is one annoyance and waste of time, and is something that could be prevented without wasting the time of the mods.

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LoyceV
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 July 07, 2018, 09:18:20 AM

There is so much subjective influence in the awarding of merits. My dislike of heavy formatting, images, and long unsnipped quotes are examples.
I don't think that matters much: on average, this will turn out okay. It's impossible to be objective when it comes to post quality.

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 July 07, 2018, 10:32:58 AMMerited by Coolcryptovator (1)

I think Theymos has got a really difficult task in selecting merit sources. There is so much subjective influence in the awarding of merits.
I respect their decision but I feel that there are other people who are more active in the forum than the merit sources. Also theymos is monitoring them for their "performance" in meriting posts in order to evaluate their decision.

Quote
My dislike of heavy formatting, images, and long unsnipped quotes are examples.
I dont blame you. They make my eyes sore too.

Quote
As I stated, there is no shortage of sMerits, but there is a shortage of time, and more responsible merit sources would mean that there is more time available for post hunting.
True but the merit sources also need to patrol the more spam infested threads. But that a hell lot of work to fish out some worthy post to merit in the ocean of shit.

Quote
I think that a better solution is the removal of the very low value pollution on the boards, and this would allow the existing sources to work more efficiently. Useless necro-bumping is one annoyance and waste of time, and is something that could be prevented without wasting the time of the mods.
I have felt the need for more mods to be higher than more merit sources. Specially the boards with the "__ Discussion" format.

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 July 07, 2018, 12:24:09 PM

True but the merit sources also need to patrol the more spam infested threads. But that a hell lot of work to fish out some worthy post to merit in the ocean of shit
Quote
I feel that there are other people who are more active in the forum than the merit sources.

Exactly you point the right thing. There are many well reputed member's more then active from some merit source. Thats why I think need more merit source on forum. 82 merit source is not enough right now with limited smerit monthly. If newcomer make something useful and he didn't get enough merit then he might be disappointed from it. If some one new here it doesn't mean he can't creat good content.

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Theb
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Activity: 1134
Merit: 460

 July 07, 2018, 12:58:41 PM

If the current system (user earns half the merits as sMerits) is being played out and abuse already what more if a 1 is to 1 merit system be applied bin the forum? A normal user won't need merit sources anymore as literally he/she can generate sMerits by himself just by transferring merits back and forth to his/her alt accounts or friends in the forum. Technically your solution will just promote more spam and shitpost and will make the merit system as a failed solution to the forum.

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Flying Hellfish
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Impeach 45

 July 07, 2018, 01:10:40 PMMerited by Foxpup (3)

~snip~
Lets put this myth to bed.

I think another valid point that rarely gets mentioned is that NOT getting merit does not affect any users ability to use and learn from the forum in any noticeable way shape or forum.  Users with 0 merit can still achieve jr rank and thus lift the majority of "restrictions" (ignoring paid membership which is another option to remove some restrictions).

The forum allows full access to it wealth of knowledge regardless of merit.  If a user wishes to part of the community merit is NOT a barrier of entry.  If a user wishes to simply make money here than yes I believe merit will and should be a barrier for those users.

Creating a 1 to 1 ratio is like creating unlimited smerit which would entirely defeat the purpose of the system so I wouldn't personally hold my breath for that change!

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DdmrDdmr
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Merit: 2953

There are lies, damned lies and statistics. MTwain

 July 07, 2018, 01:41:09 PMMerited by Foxpup (4), Jet Cash (2), Coolcryptovator (1)

<...>
Exactly you point the right thing. There are many well reputed member's more then active from some merit source. Thats why I think need more merit source on forum. 82 merit source is not enough right now with limited smerit monthly. If newcomer make something useful and he didn't get enough merit then he might be disappointed from it. If some one new here it doesn't mean he can't creat good content.
I’m personally convinced that there isn’t enough sMerit being awarded from a global Forum’s perspective on the whole, but as I’ve often mentioned, I’m sure that the Forum monitors the supporting numbers as I do, with better and more complete information. Additionally, they can internally contrast them against their inner set objectives (namely people ranking up, posting quality perception and posting spam proportion amongst others). Without performing this contrast (results vs goals), we cannot really say if we’re going short or not, even if perception and intuition tends to sway in one direction.

Having said that, there are two other important matters that participate in the equation: Meriter’s standards vs posters’ accredited standard, and potential meriter’s willingness to participate.

The meriter’s standard is our own personal view on what kind of content is meritable. This standard is as I said personal, and may even change overtime. In my personal case, I can spend quite sometime skimming through the Beginners & Help section for example, and find barely anything meritable by my standards. Now it’s not as if my standard was tremendously high, but it is also not coincidental with what many postulating posters think of their own posts, considering it a blistering injustice if they go unmerited for a short post with little added value.
Not that a short post cannot be a great contribution, it’s just that I find that they often are not and tend to repeat well known answers (give me tomorrow’s lottery results and I’ll but that short post anytime though).

Surprisingly enough, I kind of get the feeling that many people do not perform a bit of research at some point, and try to understand why other people are being merited and they are not, going through merited posts and understanding the difference to theirs by comparison.
Some try, and give a link to an article with a two liner associated comment. Going a bit further is not that difficult, but it does require effort (and time), and that does seem like a rarely exercised will. Going that extra mile with a well-versed personal opinion could make all the difference, but that is not a path that is often chosen.
Others perform better to the eye in the short run by plagiarizing, but one is kind of getting used to spotting these out, even if it means having to waste time trying to verify whether the posts is original or not.

The other factor is the potential meriter’s will to participate. With an initial airdrop of 600k sMerits + halfings + sMerit Sources, the 185K aggregate sMerits that have been transacted seems lowish. There are many active members that join in to the sMerit awarding game actively and regularly, bearing a sense of responsibility and believe in the principals behind the Merit System, at the expense of their free time (merit sources being at the top).
Nevertheless, there does seem to be a large amount of people that, having received the initial airdrop, have not joined in the game of meriting others. Now this may be due to multiple reasons, but it is certainly a factor that weighs in the overall scheme of things.

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r1s2g3
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I am alive but in hibernation.

 July 07, 2018, 01:55:02 PM

Look Like you are weak in Mathematics. If 1 Merit generate 1 sMerit , Then you can have infinite supply of Merit by Just getting 1 Merit.
A got 1 Merit so he has default 1sMerit.
A decided it to give it to B, Now B has 1 Merit and 1 smerit.
Now both can do to and froth to game the system and in between they can introduce C,D,E and so on.

Edit:  Merit Sources are replenished with sMerits ( sMerits created without getting any Merit) to solve this erosion problem.

May be you are right I am not much experienced in math. But I think you reply before complete my post. On subject you can see
Quote
Re: Erosion of merit.( posted by mistake. Not yet ready for post )
. I think I calculate right. It's user calculation. Not from merit source. I will request you for read now. Btw thanks for your reply.

I actually read this "posted by mistake. Not yet ready for post"  but your concept of 1Merit =1sMerit has a very big flaw . I want  you  to drop this concept at once and you can use your time on any other subject.
I know you are good scam ICO buster and might your  scam busting skills have saved millions of dollar of investor.

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Coolcryptovator
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 July 07, 2018, 02:05:44 PM

~snip~
Lets put this myth to bed.

I think another valid point that rarely gets mentioned is that NOT getting merit does not affect any users ability to use and learn from the forum in any noticeable way shape or forum.  Users with 0 merit can still achieve jr rank and thus lift the majority of "restrictions" (ignoring paid membership which is another option to remove some restrictions).

The forum allows full access to it wealth of knowledge regardless of merit.  If a user wishes to part of the community merit is NOT a barrier of entry.  If a user wishes to simply make money here than yes I believe merit will and should be a barrier for those users.

Creating a 1 to 1 ratio is like creating unlimited smerit which would entirely defeat the purpose of the system so I wouldn't personally hold my breath for that change!

Creating 1 to 1 ratio will not genarate unlimited smerit. It will just remain ( frozen)  that current smerit of forum. May be you are right that merit should be need those user simply want earn money. Merit system wasn't implemented for earn money, it was implemented for motivate people to keep spam free forum. But I want to clarify that actually my discussion about smerit. I am not argue with merit or merit distribution.

Spammers' sMerit dries up, and the assumption is that users with good posts will also be good judges of other users' posts.

Spammer doesn't belongs to got merit. So no question about smerit dries up. Because if he didn't receive merit , it means he haven't smerit.

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Jet Cash
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 July 07, 2018, 02:22:35 PMMerited by Foxpup (2)

Everybody keeps targeting the merit awarders as the culprits in this, and their worst critics are the low-life polluters who clog the boards and deprive the better posters of their rewards. Why don't we try to make them aware how damaging they are to the forum, to other new members, and to their prospects in the crypto-economy. If we could halve their thread graffiti, then I'm sure that the merit would start to flow

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seoincorporation
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BtcBoss

 July 07, 2018, 03:08:41 PMLast edit: July 07, 2018, 03:19:20 PM by seoincorporationMerited by Jet Cash (10)

Everybody keeps targeting the merit awarders as the culprits in this, and their worst critics are the low-life polluters who clog the boards and deprive the better posters of their rewards. Why don't we try to make them aware how damaging they are to the forum, to other new members, and to their prospects in the crypto-economy. If we could halve their thread graffiti, then I'm sure that the merit would start to flow

Maybe we just need the "shitposter" rank under their names profiles, for those incapables or unwilling to make any contribution to the forum. This will ease the work of many merit sources and others looking for good posters and ending with a red face due to the facepalms they provide to themselves. Besides, it will be a nice rank, the most accurate of the whole forum.

Just joking (or not  ). The situation is related to low quality, to be honest. I usually have 5 or 6 merits to expend in a week and seek good posters. I always ending meriting the same people for another amazing post or someone from the Spanish board. But, to be honest, to find something decent even in the Spanish one is getting more and more complicated each day.
I used to think there weren't enough merits, for I always went quickly out of them, but now I do have some and anyone to award but the common ones. Eh, and, in my case, I have usually less than 10 to spare. I can't imagine how it is to be a merit source and confront each day the frustration of finding nothing of value in between a lot of shitposts. We all are seeing how the forum is taking the path of decay for some time now, but the recent month has been really annoying (I prefer to stay away from the red tagging and yesterday I gave two, for instance).
But maybe one of the answers is to spare the merit between the users doing a great job and stop looking for deserving newcomers as an incentive: maybe you can't find a newcomer, but another user can, so, eventually, your merits will be given to a deserving one, maybe in a local, maybe in some forum hidden hole... Perhaps the point is to have the merit circulating.

But, I don't know. I just feel sometimes kind of angry/sad/impotent because of the shape the forum is taking.

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Jet Cash
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 July 07, 2018, 03:19:26 PM

I'll probably get into trouble for this, but I've just given you ten merits. That gives you 5 for the Spanish board. I know that as a legendary they won't make much difference to you, but hopefully you can use the five wisely. I'm having trouble dispensing them, and I'm starting to feel guilty about it.

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vphasitha01
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Merit: 172

 July 07, 2018, 03:25:59 PM

(User)  :  Me > user1> user2> user3> user4  >  user5>>>
(Smerit): 1  >> 0.5 >   0.25  > 0.125> 0.0625> 0.03125>>>>
I think your calculations are based on two hypothesis that believing merit distribution is in a linear system and one user getting only sMerits from another one user only. Since those two hypothesis are incorrect, your calculations are also incorrect. I think "DdmrDdmr" already explained in his thread how the system works by his nodes analysis.
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