Self Regulation Or Else ... Govt Intervention

[ZephramC]

Two things:
- There are many "self-regulated" alternatives. Who wants regulated market has plenty of choice. Please leave some Atlantis for the ones who do not.
- Bitcoin IS NOT a way to get rich in fiat. It would help tremendously if people stop recalculating Bitcoin gains and loses to USD, EUR, etc. If you want fiat stay in fiat.

hahahahahaaaaa that's great to say in a vacuum but it cost you fiat to buy all of the equipment to mine the cryptocurrency, it cost fiat to secure the cryptocurrency, it cost fiat to create the infrastructure to be able to have a digital industry.  

I remember when credit card was not used for everyday goods, now credit cards are ubiquitous, it's essentially digital fiat.  Connections to fiat are necessary in the early stages in order to move the endeavor along faster than a snail's pace.

Just because the 'umbilical cord' is cut doesn't mean you must be absolutely detached.

You know that you do not have to mine and do not have to buy BTC for fiat, do you? (There are other ways to get BTC, such as offering competitive goods and services to the ones already owning BTC.) You can secure CC by BTC payments, you can pay for infrastructure in BTC... Credit card is just another "way how to use fiat" such as bank accounts are representations of fiat.
BTC is not a representation of fiat, although it can be one of its many functions.  Same apply for other CC to some degree.

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[mdotstrange]

I think that "self regulation" is up to the individual- We should regulate ourselves- who/what we do business with- I don't want any person or organization/government to regulate what I do with my crypto- I regulate myself- WHY would anyone want regulation?

The current "regulated" master/slave world SUX

History has shown that the human factor brings corruption- I'd rather trust the math- Bitcoin is solid- people... not so much.

[LostDutchman]

I think that "self regulation" is up to the individual- We should regulate ourselves- who/what we do business with- I don't want any person or organization/government to regulate what I do with my crypto- I regulate myself- WHY would anyone want regulation?

The current "regulated" master/slave world SUX

History has shown that the human factor brings corruption- I'd rather trust the math- Bitcoin is solid- people... not so much.

Well, "they" wanted to "bring Bitcoin to the world" and now they have.

Thanks a lot, fools!

My $.02.

[Snail2]

Until someone can make a lot of money by ignoring ethics, moral and other self regulatory stuff there always will be a bunch of ppl who will prefer the "shady" ways for the quick buck. We have to live with it. Actually we all living with shady guys around everyday. Why do you think the brokers at your bank are any better than let's say Fontas? They've shelled out a large part of our savings just a few years ago on a fully legal way, and they've got a nice bonus for doing so. Regulation will not change the mentality of these people.

[ZephramC]

...

Only thing that has to be done at first is constant check-ups IF the exchange has the $ and BTC that their numbers show. That would be enough to build trust and integrity of the market system.
But, it's impossible.. it can't be done... it won't fix anything!!! Burying our heads in sand is the correct way.. it fixes all..!!!
...

But sure, This is possible, it can be done, it would fix something.

But in the process it would screw very much of "other somethings". I would simply just not use such exchange. I would move my BTC trading to the unchecked, unregulated exchange. There are many people like me.

I wonder, Do you also believe that only people opposing constant camera surveillance in the streets are the ones wanting to commit crimes and that "honest law-abiding citizen has nothing to worry about"? Or that all people calling for freedom of speech are extremists who want to promote violence and "bad ideas"?

[Armis]

Two things:
- There are many "self-regulated" alternatives. Who wants regulated market has plenty of choice. Please leave some Atlantis for the ones who do not.
- Bitcoin IS NOT a way to get rich in fiat. It would help tremendously if people stop recalculating Bitcoin gains and loses to USD, EUR, etc. If you want fiat stay in fiat.

hahahahahaaaaa that's great to say in a vacuum but it cost you fiat to buy all of the equipment to mine the cryptocurrency, it cost fiat to secure the cryptocurrency, it cost fiat to create the infrastructure to be able to have a digital industry.  

I remember when credit card was not used for everyday goods, now credit cards are ubiquitous, it's essentially digital fiat.  Connections to fiat are necessary in the early stages in order to move the endeavor along faster than a snail's pace.

Just because the 'umbilical cord' is cut doesn't mean you must be absolutely detached.

You know that you do not have to mine and do not have to buy BTC for fiat, do you? (There are other ways to get BTC, such as offering competitive goods and services to the ones already owning BTC.) You can secure CC by BTC payments, you can pay for infrastructure in BTC... Credit card is just another "way how to use fiat" such as bank accounts are representations of fiat.
BTC is not a representation of fiat, although it can be one of its many functions.  Same apply for other CC to some degree.

Again you are speaking in a vacuum, cryptocurrency (CC) must be created before it could be used, the creation of CC beit btc or any other FIRST CC must be done with equipment originally involving fiat.    Even if computers grew on trees the trees would still need to be grown and picked, then the computers would need to be packed and shipped; sold to wholesalers, retailers then to consumer, but that only gets you the computer, now you need a place to put it (like a house or library), electricity, internet service; don't forget you also need people to program the computer, and to create all of the other programs to enable you to do what you want with that computer, are you getting it now?  Ok, now you created your first CC, now you need to create whole CC community, network, industry, then economy then at that point you will be at about where the USA was about 200 years ago when we thought that our brand new USD would enable us to never be involved with another British pound again.

Everyday I work with British pounds, although I never see a single one.   CC is simply another resource.

 

[Armis]

I think that "self regulation" is up to the individual- We should regulate ourselves- who/what we do business with- I don't want any person or organization/government to regulate what I do with my crypto- I regulate myself- WHY would anyone want regulation?

The current "regulated" master/slave world SUX

History has shown that the human factor brings corruption- I'd rather trust the math- Bitcoin is solid- people... not so much.

It sounds like you have not yet been the victim of any cryptocurrency wrong doing.  

It won't take long for you to hear of stories of how people got ripped off, from the computer virus that can empty your wallets, hackers that can empty wallets and accounts,  and use your wallet to receive funds stolen from other accounts, account snatching by bad employees of good exchanges, meetup associates, family members, or even law enforcement when your funds are at an exchanges embroiled in a money laundering scheme, not to mention the various pump and dump schemes, or the  exchanges losing money, delaying trades, stopping withdrawals, etc ...  

And just when you think you have it all figured out by eliminating the exchanges, only doing Peer to Peer deals, you plan to store the coins using a paper wallet with keys that were generated by a computer that never saw the internet; and you will only sell your coins after making sure that your money is safe in your bank.
So the scam artist answers your localbitcom ad saying that you are selling 1 btc for cash deposit to your bank account, he passes all of your security checks in terms of name address phone and even ID checks (a bit much just to buy btc, but that's your rule), the deposit of cash is made, you trust that the bank won't accept counterfeit currency, he  faxes you a copy of the receipt you see it in your balance and you verify it with your bank.   So you send the btc code to the customer.   The following day the bank calls you in a conference call with local police, turns out that the person that made the deposit to the account was a victim of a scam (could be one of very many out there) in which the customer is told to make a payment in that way.  After the victim doesn't receive his goods, service, or relief he goes to the bank and police with receipt in hand and demands his money back, the call to you is to determine if you know the guy and if you told him to deposit the funds to the account?  You have his name, address a different phone number, and copy of his id, so you say yes, but when you tell them it was about his btc purchase, they tell you thanks for your assistance hang up.  The next time you look at the account the funds are gone, the man got a refund, and the scam artist get your btc.

If you had a safe, insured, and self-regulated cryptocurrency industry it is highly unlikely that you would go though such elaborate measures to buy sell or secure your CC.

Notwithstanding, just because you are safe doesn't mean the system is safe.

[CompNsci]

But when only "counter-arguments" I got, were "but..but.. government regulations are bad!" or "but.. but... the banks are also bad!"... Then I lost all hope... No one is interesting in creating a self-regulatory system that would build integrity and trust around the bitcoin market system. No one got worried that if MtGox falls, then people will think "how can I trust any of those exchanges?".. All I got were silly excuses on why we should just keep burying our heads in sand and hope that the problems will solve itself.

One of the beauties of Bitcoin is that if you think there is a market for some type of more regulated exchange, exchanges with better guarantees, etc., there is nothing stopping you from starting one or a community of like minded individuals who want to follow the rules of the community.

Perhaps make some proposals and try and start something.

[Armis]

But when only "counter-arguments" I got, were "but..but.. government regulations are bad!" or "but.. but... the banks are also bad!"... Then I lost all hope... No one is interesting in creating a self-regulatory system that would build integrity and trust around the bitcoin market system. No one got worried that if MtGox falls, then people will think "how can I trust any of those exchanges?".. All I got were silly excuses on why we should just keep burying our heads in sand and hope that the problems will solve itself.

One of the beauties of Bitcoin is that if you think there is a market for some type of more regulated exchange, exchanges with better guarantees, etc., there is nothing stopping you from starting one or a community of like minded individuals who want to follow the rules of the community.

Perhaps make some proposals and try and start something.

that's exactly what this thread represents, the discussion seed that germinates and grows into some large action

[instructor2121]

I see it like this:
 
1. We will have to have govn't regulated exchanges(coinbase-im in the US) to convert fiat to BTC. This is the onramp and exit for fiat and BTC conversions. No way around this if we are exchanging for fiat.

2. We need exchanges in the Bitcoin network that are not influenced by anything but supply and demand. No founder...No owner...No govnt regulation. We have a group that ensures the integrity of the exchanges.

There should be several of these to make a true index. We trade BTC with other Alt-coins and vice versa, we sell our BTC for currency of choice to trade, but will have to convert to BTC to send to our regulated exchange to cash out in fiat.

just my opinion

[kwilliams]

You can achieve safety trough regulation.  However it impedes progress and leads to corruption. Eventually you pay for this safety dearly as you are robbed by the system every minute of every day.  If safety is your goal, I suggest studying slave and feudal societies. Most were relatively safe even by today’s standards.

[mdotstrange]

It sounds like you have not yet been the victim of any cryptocurrency wrong doing.  

It won't take long for you to hear of stories of how people got ripped off, from the computer virus that can empty your wallets, hackers that can empty wallets and accounts,  and use your wallet to receive funds stolen from other accounts, account snatching by bad employees of good exchanges, meetup associates, family members, or even law enforcement when your funds are at an exchanges embroiled in a money laundering scheme, not to mention the various pump and dump schemes, or the  exchanges losing money, delaying trades, stopping withdrawals, etc ...  

If you had a safe, insured, and self-regulated cryptocurrency industry it is highly unlikely that you would go though such elaborate measures to buy sell or secure your CC.

Notwithstanding, just because you are safe doesn't mean the system is safe.

I've heard plenty of stories of people being ripped off- and I've already been ripped off through a Litecoin wallet service that disappeared and took everyones coin BUT that doesn't change my perspective- I still think Bitcoin and what crypto-currency offers is awesome- I just had to adapt and learn and not blame my incompetence or inexperience on the protocols themselves.

I know that the only way to be %100 safe is to die- life is dangerous if you want to be alive-

Having the possibility of change is dangerous but if the status quo Sux ass- the risk is worth it

Anyone or anything that promises total safety is really just offering slavery- enough of that- lets try something new.

[Armis]

Good News/ Bad News: "Benjamin Lawsky, New York's financial services superintendent, said he will issue "BitLicenses" to companies dealing with bitcoins. That would mark the most significant step thus far in the United States to regulate the digital currency"

http://money.cnn.com/2014/02/12/technology/bitcoin-regulation/index.html


on it's face this may look like good news, having the govt formally recognizing cryptocurrency in a significant enough way to codify it, but I see it as simply the first step to massive intervention, manipulation, and taxation (ie: Singapore)

How do you see it?