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Author Topic: Casascius Bitcoin POS system  (Read 9332 times)
cbeast
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October 20, 2011, 03:24:45 AM
 #41


Are you saying that visa and mastercard are the proprietary owners of the data centers that handle all transactions from all credit cards, even if it's a gift card for a store? I don't think so.

You develop the backend at a server, you provide the certificate and access codes, you give a program code to the machine, it's done.

Credit and gift cards are not free. Transaction fees are paid ultimately by the consumer. Not so much with bitcoin. It will be awhile before anyone is ready to use bitcoins via POS, but these open source projects show what can be done with bitcoin.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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October 20, 2011, 03:33:29 AM
 #42

We have to re-invent the wheel because the current payment systems/companies are not going to cooperate with bitcoin to integrate a free payment system into their infrastructure.

A $200 device that the merchant can stick under the counter, its tough, checkout-chick friendly, simple to power up, and best of all, completely free to use and accept payments with forever. You can even get the backend to convert the btc straight back to whatever currency tickles your fancy.

Personally i'd prefer a mini-pc under the counter with a proper LCD screen that can display the QR code, and show nice graphics etc.. but this POS device will definately be a winner for non techie mom & pop stores to accept bitcoin.

Cheap, Simple, Familiar = Win
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October 20, 2011, 03:50:47 AM
 #43

You tell Walmart that a thousand of their smaller competitors are accepting bitcoin at the POS and they might actually think about accepting it themselves.

You gotta start somewhere.
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October 20, 2011, 04:10:58 AM
 #44

You guys have absolutely no concept of the mindset of business owners. You're all coming at it from a pro-Bitcoin agenda. Go walk into a completely random store and ask them if it would or would not be a hassle to stick that 'under the counter'. They'd laugh at you. Get real.

Some business owners have a Bitcoin agenda and would be happy to get this going.  They just don't have an easy way to start.  Sure, it's not going to be Target or Wal-Mart, but think Memorydealers.com and Meze Grill.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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October 20, 2011, 04:37:39 AM
 #45

As for meze grill, I can understand only if they don't already have a credit card processor. If they do have a credit card processor, simply entering in the program and unlock code you could provide to them from the data center would allow them to accept bitcoins with a custom protocol without needing them to change their hardware out.

It's not so simple in practice.  You can get those credit card boxes for $200.  Sure perhaps you can unlock the box but will the card processing software play well with the extra app?  It's not like the terminal has "alt-tab", the extra app only plays well if it's loaded and endorsed by the issuing bank and integrated into what's already there.  Without that, much easier to just get a separate box.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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October 20, 2011, 04:53:04 AM
 #46


...which is exactly what I've been saying. Get it integrated. Get it endorsed. Like that's even an issue.

I write a time and attendance (payroll) app for VeriFone.  Generally, the banks WANT my payroll app on their credit card box.  That's a useful reference point.  It's highly unlikely they'd want bitcoin on it.  They want the payroll app because there's a chance they can scoop up extra revenue via payroll.  They won't add bitcoin just for the karma.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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October 20, 2011, 06:12:31 AM
 #47

Since I develop software for POS machines, I'm probably qualified to speak on the matter

POS machines are computers with tight security requirements (PCI-DSS). They are not web browsers that simply shovel data from the server to the screen. Further, they only run signed binaries. A gift card app is a signed binary.  No, they would not send coins themselves (nowhere near enough storage available for a block chain), a server would do it.

You are welcome to tone down the attitude, your insights will be welcomed more.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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October 20, 2011, 06:29:24 AM
 #48

Both of you seem to know something about this so I have a simple logistical question.  Right now if I want to pay someone I hand them my credit card and they swipe it.  I assume the box then sends this information on to the server and then the transaction is handled.  However if I want to pay with Bitcoins at some store (restaurant, retail, whatever) then what do I "hand them".  In other words what takes the place of the credit card on an unmodified box.

From what I see there needs to be some modification to the box so it can print out a QR or something so that the transaction can be started.  I can see how a modified box could print out a QR and total and this could be scanned by my phone and then I could send the Bitcoins over the network - or something like that.

I admit I know next to nothing here.  I only use credit cards as a consumer and at one point had a small retail shop where we accepted them so please no attitude or flames.

Just would like to see how an unmodified box would be used.  Are you thinking that we would encode Bitcoin related key information on the strip of a credit card that could then be read into the system?

What information would be on the card.  Surely not the private key and encoding the public key does no good as I am trying to make a payment.

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October 20, 2011, 06:54:03 AM
 #49

Since I develop software for POS machines, I'm probably qualified to speak on the matter

POS machines are computers with tight security requirements (PCI-DSS). They are not web browsers that simply shovel data from the server to the screen. Further, they only run signed binaries. A gift card app is a signed binary.  No, they would not send coins themselves (nowhere near enough storage available for a block chain), a server would do it.

You are welcome to tone down the attitude, your insights will be welcomed more.

As a self professed qualified speaker on the matter, how can you deny that all any credit card processor machine would need is a server connected to an e-wallet system?

That would streamline this whole thing and open it up to the entire world instead of limiting it to people who like your box.
dear matthew,
Respecting your  1188 posts (in which i guess had the same attitude)...
Topic starter casascius invested time, his know how and produced a solution for a problem that exists.
You on the other hand with your dick-attitute managed to create problems than solutions. You are far away from constructive criticism...
There is a saying that if you are not part of the solution , you are part of the problem.
Think for a moment  where are you putting your self.
In the end i have a question.
can you do it better?
a)do it.
b)you can't. just applaud and stfu.
the only thing that came out of your crap posts was that casascius should integrate bitcoin functions to the existing system.
Casascius TRIED to explain to you that these are signed.
As you know bussiness world is not full of tech savvy persons and this is a fine start.
This might not be the final solution (for a number of reasons) BUT its a proof of concept that can be done and its pretty damn good.

casascius
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October 20, 2011, 07:52:38 AM
 #50

Bitcoin has unusual needs, like the ability to notify the merchant about incoming payments from the network. Eg someone goes to Meze Grill and sends BTC with smartphone. I propose the terminal spontaneously alert the merchant about that incoming payment once heard on the network. Existing bank card infrastructure has no facility for "push notifications" into a credit card machine that can be piggy backed to meet the need. Credit card infrastructure has no facility to generate a Bitcoin address and spit it out so customer knows whom to pay. Bottom line the only clean way to solve the problem is with a specialized app.

If there is a better way to do it based on whatever infrastructure they have in Korea well I am all ears. But the burden of proof for its usefulness and for making it happen is yours of course, not mine or anyone else's.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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October 20, 2011, 08:32:06 AM
 #51


You're just trolling me now aren't you? Do you not realize that you don't need to even worry about Bitcoin from the POS level and that that can all be handled by the backend?

how do you think gift cards work? Do you think they needed to reprogram every credit card processing machine in the entire world? Or is it much more likely that they just set up a backend to return some data?

Also, don't try to tell me that you can't get data back from a request by a credit card processing machine. That's why it's called a 'request'. Especially in the case of debit cards, it asks the server if the user has or does not have enough funds to cover. Why couldn't that just as simply be a MtGox account with a mtgox payment server running?

I understand the novelty of dealing with bitcoins directly, but it's a waste of time. It's like requiring the customer or waiter to cook the food instead of just ordering it to the kitchen.

Quote
...this is a much simpler and much more scalable solution for main stream acceptance of bitcoins

For something that is 'much simpler' it sure seems more complicated to understand what you're getting at and how it would work.
So you're proposing a system for paying with bitcoins (indirectly) *if you have an account with a specific provider* such as for example mtgox ?   
What does the merchant have to do to support each new popular bitcoin wallet provider which springs up? 
What costs are there in your solution for the merchant and for the wallet provider?

I still don't get where the account-balance checking/authorisation logic would reside.
The 'local middle-man processing service' sets it up to talk to mtgox APIs etc?
Does this mean your solution is completely independent of the banks - or because the POS device already talks to the banks, it has to go through their systems?

What exactly does the customer give to the merchant, a card with the provider-specific account code plus what?..  name, expiry, security code just like a cc?

Pragmatic as it may be to get some merchants on board who are shy of the additional hardware - it feels to me like the casascius POS would be the much nicer long term solution (for the provider/exchange-agnostic bitcoiner anyway)





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October 20, 2011, 10:05:16 AM
 #52



BOTTOM LINE: BITCOIN IS NOTHING. IT WILL REMAIN NOTHING UNTIL BITCOIN STARTS GROWING UP. Reinventing the wheel (which is exactly what casascius is trying to do) is wasting time and distracting from bigger efforts.


This is why Casascius is doing the right thing. Starting small with a new idea isn't a bad thing.  I like your system, but it looks too expensive for a business that is looking to save every satoshi. Also, your payment processors may end up charging higher fees for bitcoin transactions than Citicorp. As far as distracting from other efforts, I'm not sure who you are referring to. Bitcoin is not nothing. Bitcoin will still be around after the politicians have balkanized or confederated the USA.
This is putting a lot of faith in MtGox to become adopted by mainstream buisnesses. I want to see it happen, but it will meet political resistance from antibitcoiners that have a face (MtGox) to attack. Here's what seems to be missing: Where is this decentralized exchange folks want to develop?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=45751.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=7212.msg105791#msg105791

tl;dr We need both your and Casascius' system.


Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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October 20, 2011, 10:42:50 AM
 #53

Matthew, your rudeness and arrogance know no bounds.

The most worthwhile tip I have taken from your contribution to this thread is to make sure I never do business with DialCoin for fear of having to deal with someone like yourself.

Please start your own thread about your own POS system, in there you can abuse your fellow bitcoiners as much as you like, maybe if you call them dicks enough times they might come to their senses and bow down.
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October 20, 2011, 10:47:59 AM
 #54

Was I the only one reading the spec looking for the part where it would actually scan a casascius coin and/or scan the private key of one to redeem it?

PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
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October 20, 2011, 12:18:27 PM
 #55

Our style:



Who is "us"?

What exactly are you planning. The reader on the photo looks like a t-money PoS used in public transport and stores used throughout korea. It's based on mayfair classic smartcard, storing balance on the card, afaik (see ccc conference 2010 or 2009, not sure, I think carsten nöhle gave a talk about this, it's "hacked")

So what are your plans?

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October 20, 2011, 01:52:11 PM
 #56

Who is "our"?

I was referring to what I am planning in Korea and what MtGox is planning in Japan.

What exactly are you planning.

That's not for this thread. This thread is casacius asking for comments and getting them.

I agree this would be OT here. Where is the thread/place to talk about this? You can't just run around discrediting other's ideas/work without be open to discuss your own on more deeply than saying: "experts are working on it".

Even if we go with magstrip in Korea, the three data channels are more than enough to hold account numbers for any exchange (if that's the way we want to go). I don't think anyone should we wasting their time on physical devices when actual experts have already created them.

How exactly do you want to convice the operators of the existing system to open up their system so you can plug-in mtgox backend?


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October 20, 2011, 02:13:40 PM
 #57

Matthew, your rudeness and arrogance know no bounds.

The most worthwhile tip I have taken from your contribution to this thread is to make sure I never do business with DialCoin for fear of having to deal with someone like yourself.

Please start your own thread about your own POS system, in there you can abuse your fellow bitcoiners as much as you like, maybe if you call them dicks enough times they might come to their senses and bow down.

+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000

I have yet to hear an idea or him actually doing something talented to help the project.  Slamming Casascius for attempting a valid POS system is not a wasted attempt,  even if it fails he'll learn what he did right and what he did wrong.




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October 20, 2011, 02:30:53 PM
 #58

Matthew, your rudeness and arrogance know no bounds.

The most worthwhile tip I have taken from your contribution to this thread is to make sure I never do business with DialCoin for fear of having to deal with someone like yourself.

Please start your own thread about your own POS system, in there you can abuse your fellow bitcoiners as much as you like, maybe if you call them dicks enough times they might come to their senses and bow down.

+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000




Is that the number of templates you looked through before settling on one for your wordpress bank?

The intelligence emanating from mom's basement in South Korea is amazing.  

If you are referring to the marketing site http://www.flexcoin.com .. yes that's wordpress... but CLEARLY you never actually looked at the bank itself,  located at https://bank.flexcoin.com   which is not.

It doesn't matter regardless...  asking you for advice or your opinion is completely worthless as you contribute nothing to the project.

Casascius did a good job trying to build a valid POS system, and your take?  He's an idiot for doing such?   Seriously what kind of jerk are you?  Instead of helping him and positively telling him your advice.. you slam him?


Prove me wrong and for once... just once....  try to help people rather than tear them down...

you don't see me slamming your Dialcoin service...   though if you really wish i can start a thread that would take you 20 years to finish reading.




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October 20, 2011, 02:58:57 PM
 #59

To be honset I don't quite get the whole discussion here. The perfect POS terminal for BTC exists for quite a while now and we have been using it in our bar / restaurant in Berlin for months now.

We use a tablet with the Schildbach bitcoin client for android, the payment process takes less time than any credit card payment and everybody's happy.

No dedicated hardware, no server somewhere, nothing like that needed. Just a peace of open source software.

But maybe I'm just not getting the point here?

Regards

Joe

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October 20, 2011, 03:36:05 PM
 #60

To be honset I don't quite get the whole discussion here. The perfect POS terminal for BTC exists for quite a while now and we have been using it in our bar / restaurant in Berlin for months now.

We use a tablet with the Schildbach bitcoin client for android, the payment process takes less time than any credit card payment and everybody's happy.

No dedicated hardware, no server somewhere, nothing like that needed. Just a peace of open source software.

But maybe I'm just not getting the point here?

Regards

Joe

Yes, that can works well in some situation but not in all. To use your  POS like your your customers need to have a smartphone to pay, and  the POS is open to transaction in both sense (who use it has to be trusted or can send money to other account easily). A real POS works just like a credit card pos: no need for costumers to use a smartphone and lock in the POS to avoid fund transfer unwilled.

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