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Author Topic: Lightning Network Discussion Thread  (Read 24347 times)
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December 07, 2018, 09:51:39 AM
 #281

I'm confused, private channels? Aren't all open channels detected by checking the nodes of the Lightning Network? https://rompert.com/recksplorer/

I am also a Lightning newbie. Haha.

I think he meant node which don't connect to any other nodes which is part of public network, so AFAIK there's no way to detect or get details these nodes

Simple illustration made with draw.io. White ellipse is public node and blue ellipse is private node.

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December 07, 2018, 11:14:42 AM
 #282

Newbie question. Would it then be correct to make an assumption that there's really more than $1,800,000 in total channel capacity in the network?


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December 07, 2018, 01:52:27 PM
 #283

Newbie question. Would it then be correct to make an assumption that there's really more than $1,800,000 in total channel capacity in the network?

If there are 2 or more networks, there are 2 or more totals

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December 07, 2018, 07:36:41 PM
 #284

Newbie question. Would it then be correct to make an assumption that there's really more than $1,800,000 in total channel capacity in the network?

IMO no, since these nodes looks like on different network and we don't know how LN statistic website gather the information? Do they simply only count Bitcoin from nodes/channel which connected to other nodes which share their nodes public-ally or use check for 2-of-2 multi-sig HLTC transaction on bitcoin network Huh

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December 08, 2018, 11:01:12 AM
 #285

Newbie question. Would it then be correct to make an assumption that there's really more than $1,800,000 in total channel capacity in the network?

IMO no, since these nodes looks like on different network and we don't know how LN statistic website gather the information? Do they simply only count Bitcoin from nodes/channel which connected to other nodes which share their nodes public-ally or use check for 2-of-2 multi-sig HLTC transaction on bitcoin network Huh

I believe they should use the 2-of-2 multi-sig HLTC transactions. Technically they are the channels opened to use the Lightning Network?

Remember the "Roger Ver" Lightning node that was there, but no other node would connect to it? Hahaha.


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December 08, 2018, 07:07:57 PM
 #286

I believe they should use the 2-of-2 multi-sig HLTC transactions. Technically they are the channels opened to use the Lightning Network?

Yes, since 2-of-2 multi-sig HLTC transactions normally only used by LN.

But you can't get the details (IP, channel's balance flow which used to determine how much Bitcoin can sent, etc.) of the node if the node don't share their channel point/identification hash (not sure if it's right term) or don't connect to the nodes.

Remember the "Roger Ver" Lightning node that was there, but no other node would connect to it? Hahaha.

I didn't know that, gonna check it later Cheesy

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December 10, 2018, 05:37:30 AM
 #287

It's apparently only a joke made by someone a few months ago, but it is funny that no one would connect to it just because it's called "Roger Ver". Hahaha.






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January 01, 2019, 10:16:22 AM
 #288

The quote is from someone who claims that Lightning is a "separate network" because of something in its code called "chainhash".

What is chainhash, and how can the Lightning Network be considered a "separate network" because of it?

Quote

research it. hint: chainhash
here ill even show you a few lines of code that LN is not a bitcoin feature but a separate network for different coins
https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/chainregistry.go#L580
Code:
litecoinMainnetGenesis = chainhash.Hash([chainhash.HashSize]byte{
0xe2, 0xbf, 0x04, 0x7e, 0x7e, 0x5a, 0x19, 0x1a,
0xa4, 0xef, 0x34, 0xd3, 0x14, 0x97, 0x9d, 0xc9,
0x98, 0x6e, 0x0f, 0x19, 0x25, 0x1e, 0xda, 0xba,
0x59, 0x40, 0xfd, 0x1f, 0xe3, 0x65, 0xa7, 0x12,
})

// chainMap is a simple index that maps a chain's genesis hash to the
// chainCode enum for that chain.
chainMap = map[chainhash.Hash]chainCode{

bitcoinTestnetGenesis:  bitcoinChain,
                litecoinTestnetGenesis: litecoinChain,

bitcoinMainnetGenesis:  bitcoinChain,
litecoinMainnetGenesis: litecoinChain,
}



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January 01, 2019, 04:22:23 PM
Merited by Foxpup (4), suchmoon (4), Majormax (2), vapourminer (1), bones261 (1), LoyceV (1), Wind_FURY (1)
 #289

The quote is from someone who claims that Lightning is a "separate network" because of something in its code called "chainhash".

What is chainhash, and how can the Lightning Network be considered a "separate network" because of it?
The Lightning Network works on any cryptocurrency that has some specific properties. For example, it can be used on both Bitcoin and Litecoin. The chainhash is the hash of the genesis block and is used to indicate which blockchain a particular lightning node is operating on. In a way, the Lightning Network on Bitcoin and Lightning Network on Litecoin are two different networks. However, they are also the same network too.

They are different networks in the sense that there cannot be channels which are shared across both blockchains. All channels are based on one blockchain as channels require modification of a transaction for that blockchain. Since Bitcoin and Litecoin use different blockchains, there can only be Bitcoin channels and Litecoin channels.

However, they can also be viewed as the same network because of cross chain atomic swaps. HTLCs allow people to create a channel on Bitcoin and a similar channel on Litecoin which uses HTLCs with the same hashed secrets. This let people atomically swap Bitcoin for Litecoin. So payments can still be routed over this joint network. If someone wanted to be paid in Litecoin over the Lightning Network but you only have Bitcoin channels, you can (in theory, I don't know if this is implemented) route your payment through a node that has both Bitcoin and Litecoin channels using the same HTLC secrets and it would be totally fine. The only caveat is the exchange rate between Bitcoin and Litecoin which would have to be negotiated with that node doing the bridging between Bitcoin and Litecoin.

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January 02, 2019, 05:32:30 AM
 #290

Thanks for the thorough explanation about chainhash, I shall refer to it whenever the topic comes up. But the poster looks like he's on a gaslighting rampage to make everyone believe that the Lightning Network is literally a different network, like Ripple. Hahaha.

He has been using chainhash as the basis of his "debate".


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January 02, 2019, 02:18:42 PM
Merited by suchmoon (4), LoyceV (1)
 #291

Thanks for the thorough explanation about chainhash, I shall refer to it whenever the topic comes up. But the poster looks like he's on a gaslighting rampage to make everyone believe that the Lightning Network is literally a different network, like Ripple. Hahaha.

He has been using chainhash as the basis of his "debate".

You’re not the only one to have noticed.  It's getting absurd now.  I don't often frequent the Reputation board, but I'm tempted to make an exception for this particular user.

Lightning may support more than one coin, but that doesn't diminish Bitcoin’s utility.  If anything, it's far more reasonable to argue that LN is an enhancement to Bitcoin’s utility.  It's just another way to move coins around.  The option is there if you need it.  And if you don't need it, you can still transact in the same way you always have done.

Units of BTC can never "leave" Bitcoin’s blockchain via Lightning.  The owner of the coins can change, but it's all still BTC on Bitcoin's blockchain.  Other compatible coins can send transactions in the same way on their respective chains, but this has no detrimental impact on Bitcoin.

Once LN is more user-friendly, rather than taking whatever arguments are presented here on the forums as gospel, people should just try it for themselves and form their own conclusions.  Obviously some forum users aren't content with that and will continue to attempt to dissuade people going anywhere near LN, in order to push their on-chain call-it-scaling-even-though-it-isnt agenda.  If people can see LN having a positive effect, it decimates the non-arguments of this small minority of malicious forum accounts.

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January 03, 2019, 12:53:06 AM
 #292

Is lightning network making bitcoin centralised?

Yes.

It is also reintroducing middleman which will perpetually charge transactions fees due to network driven oligopolies.  It is a lot like Visa and Master card.
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January 03, 2019, 02:12:59 PM
Last edit: January 03, 2019, 02:24:23 PM by DooMAD
Merited by Carlton Banks (2)
 #293

Is lightning network making bitcoin centralised?

Have a look at one of the mainnet Lightning network maps and decide for yourself.  I'll see if I can provide a link, but I'm posting from a phone at the moment.

//EDIT:  https://explorer.acinq.co  should show you the current number of nodes.  Many altcoins have fewer nodes than LN, so they are arguably more centralised than Lightning.  LN does have a different security model, however, so make sure you understand it thoroughly before you dive in to use it.

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January 03, 2019, 03:26:18 PM
 #294

The problem I've seen so far with Lightning is that the nodes and wallets need to be online in order to send and receive funds.

Less intuitively than a bitcoin transaction where I can access it at a later time as long as its sent to the address.

Hopefully there are some thoughts to this. Tools to ensure uptime of the node is a good starting point.

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January 03, 2019, 05:30:55 PM
 #295

Many altcoins have fewer nodes than LN

this


The problem I've seen so far with Lightning is that the nodes and wallets need to be online in order to send and receive funds.

Less intuitively than a bitcoin transaction where I can access it at a later time as long as its sent to the address.

Hopefully there are some thoughts to this. Tools to ensure uptime of the node is a good starting point.

This is the most legitimate criticism of LN. There's a solution though: run your own lightning node.

It's worth remembering that internet culture evolves rapidly, as it's really still an immature system (despite the huge improvements since the 80's/90's). People are always looking for "more", going to the next level of living. I expect that running a small server will eventually become one of those "next big thing"s, personal servers are useful for way more than just running a lightning node.

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January 04, 2019, 05:55:30 AM
 #296

Is lightning network making bitcoin centralised?

Yes.


No.

Quote

It is also reintroducing middleman which will perpetually charge transactions fees due to network driven oligopolies.  It is a lot like Visa and Master card.


Where are the middlemen? You mean the routing of payments from one point to another if the sender does not have a direct channel to the receiver? Those are peers, not "middlemen". Haha.


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January 05, 2019, 04:53:58 PM
Last edit: January 05, 2019, 05:13:35 PM by franky1
 #297

Those are peers, not "middlemen". Haha.

define middlemen
define someone with co-control of funds
they are not just a peer

EG banks
an agreement to open a account of co-signed control

EG LN lock
an agreement to open a account of co-signed control


so now your saying a bank is your peer, they can disagree with your intention to make a payment
they can choose their opening times. they can choose the limits of how much funds can be passed

yes you can close your account and open an account with another peer(bank)

i really do laugh when people try to deny another party is involved by saying 'but they are not a third party'
having anyone else involved and has partial or even main control means your not in 100% control

and if that other party has more control access of multiple users (hub/factory) then ask yourself
       y
       ^
       v
x<>o<>z

if you are X
what is o
2nd or 3rd party
peer or middleman

oh and if you think that users will be permanently online with a merchant:
all day for the purpose of one coffee a day
all day everyday for the purpose of buying groceries once a week
all day every day every week for the purpose of making one mortgage/rent payment a month

just to be tagged as 'second party' to avoid the meaningless tag of '3rd party'
you would be sadly mistaken

but trying to twist 3rd, into 2nd, into peer is more funny

why are you so afraid to admit LN is a separate network even though devs are happy to admit it
why are you so afraid to admit LN is a separate network even though literally N of LN spells it out
why are you so afraid admit to funds get locked into a contract
why are you so afraid admit to funds get locked into a contract of co-party control

why deny co-party control
why not just call it what it is and actually if you want to promote it to death. promote it for its reality. not its uptopia

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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January 05, 2019, 08:58:18 PM
Merited by suchmoon (7), Wind_FURY (5), Foxpup (3), gentlemand (2), mindrust (1)
 #298

define middlemen
define someone with co-control of funds
they are not just a peer

EG banks
an agreement to open a account of co-signed control

EG LN lock
an agreement to open a account of co-signed control

so now your saying a bank is your peer, they can disagree with your intention to make a payment
they can choose their opening times. they can choose the limits of how much funds can be passed

Your arguments never have any substance. You just baselessly refer to LN nodes as "banks" and expect people to believe you.

Counterparties in LN can only co-sign changes to channel state. They don't have control of the underlying funds. Any attempt to steal underlying funds can easily be thwarted by broadcasting the last state to the blockchain.

Peers in LN don't have the power to stop you from making payments. At most, they can cause a delay by not signing counterparty transactions or refusing to route them. There are no incentives for them to censor transactions, but there are incentives for them to route them.

Worst comes to worst, you settle to the blockchain. There's no comparison to banks.

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January 06, 2019, 08:14:55 AM
 #299

Those are peers, not "middlemen". Haha.

define middlemen
define someone with co-control of funds
they are not just a peer

EG banks
an agreement to open a account of co-signed control

EG LN lock
an agreement to open a account of co-signed control


How can you compare a bank and a trust-minimized network like Lightning?

Quote

so now your saying a bank is your peer, they can disagree with your intention to make a payment
they can choose their opening times. they can choose the limits of how much funds can be passed


No you said that because you assumed centralized banks = trust-minimized Lightning peers.

Quote

why are you so afraid to admit LN is a separate network even though devs are happy to admit it


Which developers?

Gaslighting again.

Quote

why are you so afraid to admit LN is a separate network even though literally N of LN spells it out


If the developers call it just "Lightning", it will stop to be a separate network? Roll Eyes

Quote

why are you so afraid admit to funds get locked into a contract
why are you so afraid admit to funds get locked into a contract of co-party control


But in a trust-minimized way. Co-parties don't control the coins.


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January 06, 2019, 11:57:53 AM
 #300

Eclair (Android) has been renamed to Eclair Mobile and received an update. User is now able to select to which Electrum server he wants to connect to. Receiving LN payments will be enabled somewhere in 2019 after LN 1.1 goes live (dual-funding and liquidity advertisement is needed). More information can be found in this article.

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