Wall street traders and bankers are bitcoin's enemies.

[altcoin4u]

I think that's most obvious thing is that  Wall Street Traders are worrying about their income that can be affected while many Traders will be transferred to cryptocurrency trading from stock market. And this will decrease the Demand on the stock market.

[soy39]

Soon after futures contract trading was called out as causing the decline, the decline slowed and as voices were raised the non-big-jumps, ordinary trading, has leveled out.

   ...everyone was expecting them to bring big institutional capital to Bitcoin...

Personally I most remember the surge to Bitcoin when there were international difficulties and Bitcoin was touted as where to put one's money in troubled times.  But that got killed somehow and I don't quite know how that happened or by whom.

So, I expected that ordinary citizens in countries where retirees are seeing entry level personnel starting wage at close to what the retirees made going out, currency devalued, those ordinary citizens would put their money where Bitcoin's absolute limited quantity works against inflation.  And I expected that idea to spread and swell.

But regarding Bitcoin and Bitcoin Futures contracts and the effect of negative press for profit.  Cryptocurrency in itself is impossible for some to accept or even fathom.  So, bad press for the sake of profit would hit cryptocurrencies harder than say some utility futures, not that utility futures would expect bad press as some very difficult types control energy and the press.

If we look at financial tools that could actually bring in big money, then the Bitcoin backed Solidx ETF will be it. For every share purchase of $200,000 (which is the minimum entry point), $200,000 worth of Bitcoin will be taken out of circulation. This ETF is worth fomo'ing for, future markets aren't.

And how does that differ from buying Bit20 coins in bulk?

[soy39]

I think that's most obvious thing is that  Wall Street Traders are worrying about their income that can be affected while many Traders will be transferred to cryptocurrency trading from stock market. And this will decrease the Demand on the stock market.

Home is where the heart is.  So traders into cryptocurrency will be prone to make money weakening Bitcoin.  After all, their 401ks aren't seeing contributions from crypto.

[soy39]

Maybe and maybe not. They could be doing something to crash the price of Bitcoin. But the fact of the matter is that huge almost 20k USD spike is a fluke. If you follow the trend, it shouldn't increase that much. It should've been around only 10k USD and the 6k USD correction if fine. Besides, i think Bitcoin is strong enough to weather these kinds of enemies.

Lets not talk as if Wall Street traders only just got into cryptcurrencies.  If they weren't in very quickly I'd be shocked.  That to earlier posts in the thread.

You say it should've been around only 10k.  I remember when Bitcoin when to $100 and speculation that it would hit $1k by year's end seemed outlandish.  

That the great migration of wealth upward to the top 1% or 2% in our lifetimes has been so pervasive in every country of the world that the idea of Bitcoin with its absolute limited number of coins could very well have caused it to pass $20k, $50k, $100k - a fig to the powers that be.

[Maveth13]

As a means of maintaining value, in the present bitcoin has been defeated.  On 12/17/17 btc=$19379 and today 7/11/18 btc=$6345.  A drop of $13034 or $501/week.  I bailed when I looked at the slope and the previous 2 weeks saw 5.05%/week drop.  Right now the the $501/week average amounts to 2.57%/week.  

But compare the price today the price from past years. Even if you take the price exactly 1 year ago, which is not even a good buying point, you still have a gain from $2000 to $6400.

The problem with these kind of analysis is it compares ATH, which was a ridiculous pump, to the current price. While completely disregarding the bigger picture.

Anyone who bought at maybe around $10000 and didn't sell at the peak made a rookie mistake of joining in the hype. The consequence is that they have to wait longer than they would've expected, and that's completely acceptable.

[jhongzjhong]

Snip-
Anyone who bought at maybe around $10000 and didn't sell at the peak made a rookie mistake of joining in the hype. The consequence is that they have to wait longer than they would've expected, and that's completely acceptable.

Well, sorry for the loss that may cause on that, you can't jump in from the last year price compared recent price.
If you missed that you cant jump in into recent price from last year price because of time to time bitcoin will be growing up and it has a high volatile value that makes the price up and down.
Correct, don't sell if you have found that you have a loss besides just waiting for a months before bitcoin will bounce back in the market.

[richardsNY]

And how does that differ from buying Bit20 coins in bulk?

Institutions mostly aren't allowed to expose themselves to Bitcoin by actually buying the unregulated asset itself, which Bitcoin still is today. The second problem that pops up is custody -- institutions don't want to own the asset itself, and have no proper way to store it themselves in a secure but fully backed manner. They just love to buy a product that's actually backed by it. Let's pretend an institution buys 1 ETF share, what happens is that an exchange that works with CBOE (the platform the ETF will be listed on) will take care of the underlying asset and the storage process. It's more a tool for institutions rather than individuals. If it concerns individuals they are better off buying the asset itself.

[soy39]

As a means of maintaining value, in the present bitcoin has been defeated.  On 12/17/17 btc=$19379 and today 7/11/18 btc=$6345.  A drop of $13034 or $501/week.  I bailed when I looked at the slope and the previous 2 weeks saw 5.05%/week drop.  Right now the the $501/week average amounts to 2.57%/week.  

But compare the price today the price from past years. Even if you take the price exactly 1 year ago, which is not even a good buying point, you still have a gain from $2000 to $6400.

The problem with these kind of analysis is it compares ATH, which was a ridiculous pump, to the current price. While completely disregarding the bigger picture.

I think the point is that it could have been real.  Somewhere that belief Bitcoin was a place to put money in bad times was killed.  Maybe it was the MtGox theft.  But at one time a real continued rise to great numbers could have been possible and some of us who had been around for the $100 -> $1000 rise believed it was happening.  Those of us not stock/bond market analysts.  That it was a deliberate pump to 12/17/17 then a really disheartening decline was intentional by those who knew of the tulip bust, that arguably from tulip futures.  The bigger picture of financial analysts isn't visible to me but it didn't include Bitcoin remaining a 'store of value' of any consequence.

[soy39]

And how does that differ from buying Bit20 coins in bulk?

Institutions mostly aren't allowed to expose themselves to Bitcoin by actually buying the unregulated asset itself, which Bitcoin still is today. The second problem that pops up is custody -- institutions don't want to own the asset itself, and have no proper way to store it themselves in a secure but fully backed manner. They just love to buy a product that's actually backed by it. Let's pretend an institution buys 1 ETF share, what happens is that an exchange that works with CBOE (the platform the ETF will be listed on) will take care of the underlying asset and the storage process. It's more a tool for institutions rather than individuals. If it concerns individuals they are better off buying the asset itself.

And the reason this should worry us is that if something is a financial threat, buy it, own it, change it?

[Thewolfofcrypto]

In my humble opinion I can say that I doubt that even they are thinking about cryptocurrency market because it is not that big a stock market is yet, so I am not considering crypto currency trading as a threat for stock market, with his magnificance.

[soy39]

I like Google and Musk.  Early on I made a conscious decision to trust Google searches.  I still do.

There's an article on today's Hacker News called Elon Musk vs. Short sellers.  The author says he has nothing against short sellers, that people should be able to bet against a stock as well as for.

That said, under Profit and Beyond the author says:     "The thing is though, I think when Elon Musk looks around, he realizes the greatest threat to his company is not the Mission E or Model 3 take rate or whatever. It is the massive amount of capital betting against him steered by bad actors with malicious intent and an incriminating history."

The same with Bitcoin.

Did I mention that early in my Bitcoin days I tried selling on a downtrend to buy when it started to rise.  It was during an early pump and dump.  I lost a couple of hundred dollars if I remember correctly and decided then to just hold.  Really developed a low opinion of pump and dumpers with that my first experience with them.

I don't agree with the author's opinion that betting against a stock is okay.

But I'm not halfway through the article: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/elon-musk-vs-short-sellers.118431/

[Adhichan]

I think that's most obvious thing is that  Wall Street Traders are worrying about their income that can be affected while many Traders will be transferred to cryptocurrency trading from stock market. And this will decrease the Demand on the stock market.

it is temporary money flow from stock market moved to cryptocurrency.they think right now in cryptocurrency market, especially bitcoin give them huge potential market if they buy it right now.

[soy39]

I think that's most obvious thing is that  Wall Street Traders are worrying about their income that can be affected while many Traders will be transferred to cryptocurrency trading from stock market. And this will decrease the Demand on the stock market.

it is temporary money flow from stock market moved to cryptocurrency.they think right now in cryptocurrency market, especially bitcoin give them huge potential market if they buy it right now.

Of course, but when's the right time to buy?  Looking at how low it can be allowed to go with mining costs as a major mitigating factor, that prediction of $2800 a month or so ago sounds about right to kill mining in the US and still allow mining in low energy cost countries for the dwindling number of bitcoins that will ever be mined.  That's not to say they, those mining in low energy cost countries, are driving the value down but that their bitcoins can be used to counter the drive down by bad actors with malicious intent and an incriminating history

[laracastvue]

I think that's most obvious thing is that  Wall Street Traders are worrying about their income that can be affected while many Traders will be transferred to cryptocurrency trading from stock market. And this will decrease the Demand on the stock market.

Stocks and cryptocurrency are different and if most of the stock traders before are now preferring to trade in cryptocurrency then the economy of stock market might fall in the future.

[BTC-BTC-BTC]

There is no enemies for Bitcoin. Once the wall street, banks, and governments figured out how to monetize with it. There is no way to stop bitcoin but just slowing it down.

[soy39]

So, I wonder how this state of affairs happened.  Like in this country, did the approving authority that gave the go ahead to trade bitcoin futures ask anyone if we the bitcoin users minded?  I understand bitcoin doesn't have a ruling authority but was the Bitcoin Foundation even consulted?

In 1972, when the IMM was created, was every country who's fiat currencies were then to become part of currency futures, consulted?

Futures trading is astoundingly tempting to manipulation of markets, currencies, equities.  

When I took Economics nights at a local college in the mid-70's although the course covered the IMF and World Bank, no mention was made of the IMM.  Futures trading was left out of the 917 page text although some mention of the Chicago Mercantile futures was made in class.

So, futures contracts trading sounds a lot like the application of the Invisible Hand of the Marketplace as espoused by the rumored Mafia bookkeeper/economist.

[soy39]

I think that's most obvious thing is that  Wall Street Traders are worrying about their income that can be affected while many Traders will be transferred to cryptocurrency trading from stock market. And this will decrease the Demand on the stock market.

it is temporary money flow from stock market moved to cryptocurrency.they think right now in cryptocurrency market, especially bitcoin give them huge potential market if they buy it right now.

Of course, but when's the right time to buy?  Looking at how low it can be allowed to go with mining costs as a major mitigating factor, that prediction of $2800 a month or so ago sounds about right to kill mining in the US and still allow mining in low energy cost countries for the dwindling number of bitcoins that will ever be mined.  That's not to say they, those mining in low energy cost countries, are driving the value down but that their bitcoins can be used to counter the drive down by bad actors with malicious intent and an incriminating history

So, if power cost is a defining factor for the near future of the absolute lowest value Bitcoin might reach, what's to drive it up?  And anti-US sentiment will allow the price to drop and bad actors will put the price down there for the cheap energy country miners.  Maybe it will stabilize and rise with dollar inflation.  But that's the value storage idea that appears to be getting killed so they'd counter that if they can.  When mining reward halves again the price will rise but not double.  That there are more living college graduates in the US than there will ever be Bitcoins means that every US college graduate can't each own one.  That's the kind of thing that can take hold of the imagination and drive demand.  So, the future is in question.

[Altcoins enthusiast]

Bitcoin survival depends on us the cryptocurrencies enthusiasts!  From beginning bitcoin has this enemy that is the bankers.  The bankers see bitcoin as enemy because it is going to takes food from they mouth in future.  If the future trade was not introduce in November we would not have see the price falling in this way.

[darkangel11]

Oh, how I love the clairvoyants, the preachers and the "I told you" so trolls.
First of all, no asset investor or trader is its enemy. That person had to buy first to be able to sell. You have a wrong understanding of trading.
Destroying it would mean lack of opportunities and traders live on those opportunities. Their main goal is prediction the price move or, even better, influence the people to play along by creating fake pumps and dumps, spread FUD and so on. If they are shorting they'd like everyone to short as well, if they are longing, the would like us to long too.
After a huge pump it's natural that shorting can be more successful, but when the price stabilizes they will switch to longs again, because that's what is profitable.

As for the usual "you should have sold" nobody knew what will happen. We had bans and hacks along the way that brought the price to much lower levels than expected. I'm not a trader anymore, so I'm not selling as long as the fundamental analysis doesn't tell me to. Especially not below 10k USD. 

[soy39]

Okay, one took one's money out of bitcoin while it was dropping steadily with plans to buy when one's best guess is it won't go lower or has already started to rise.  That's the thing.  With the swings the value takes it's apparent big money can do what it pleases to the value pretty much.  One guesses wrong, buys and it plummets because they can do that.  So, the power cost of mining in low-energy-cost-countries is not an unreasonable low ball guess.   Above that they have a cushion to work with to transfer wealth to themselves.  But for that reason, that it's obvious, it probably won't go that low.

The guys who have always liked to make money and ready to fight about it ask what do ya need and can't do without.  Housing, winter heating oil, urban garbage collection.  Not the  kind of financial opportunities one would make a short term investment in while waiting for a solid change in bitcoin value.