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Author Topic: Too many mics not enough MCs - the drop in BTC value  (Read 9318 times)
Jered Kenna (TradeHill)
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March 28, 2011, 04:15:36 PM
 #41

But seriously its a lack of goods or services.

Yes, this is spot on. Bitcoin could come a long way just catering to just people concerned with personal integrity (especially on the Internet). There's a rapidly growing amount of those these days, especially over here in Sweden. But there has to be real goods and services for them to buy.

It's growing though, it takes time. Since it started there's been quite an increase in real goods sold for btc.



Bitcoin is growing at a phenomenal rate.  The drop from parity over the past 2 months is a healthy correction.   We need more goods and services in direct exchange for BTC.   That is coming that a healthy organic pace and Android apps for person-to-person transfer are under development).    But it will be quite some time before Amazon.com takes bitcoin directly

For more explosive growth what we need is more convertability.  it is too hard to get fiat money in and out of bitcoin.  That is the bottle neck that is preventing the rise to $5/BTC  and higher.  More exchanges much like Mt. Gox will help. Mt. Gox helped get us to  where we are today but something that is easier to use needs to come out.   Just saw an announcement today that britcoin was released to the public for sterling conversion.        That will help. 

the key to explosvie growth is more fluid exhcange between fiat and BTC.  Fiat will continue to co-exist with bitcoin for a long time to come.     What we need is someone to develop a financial service or mechanism to convert BTC and fiat "on the fly" so that a merchant like Amazon.com doesn't even know what you are really paying with.   


Ideally you would have a BTC account that fueles a virtual (or physical) VISA/MASTER card that you could use anywhere.   Think of it has adding backward compability (fiat convenience) to BITCOIN the future of currency.   



I agree 100% and think it could be a profitable and successful business. I'm just concerned there might be legal issues with the anonymity of btc. I suppose no one stops you from depositing cash in to an account or western union though.

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March 28, 2011, 05:39:17 PM
 #42

But seriously its a lack of goods or services.

Yes, this is spot on. Bitcoin could come a long way just catering to just people concerned with personal integrity (especially on the Internet). There's a rapidly growing amount of those these days, especially over here in Sweden. But there has to be real goods and services for them to buy.

It's growing though, it takes time. Since it started there's been quite an increase in real goods sold for btc.



Bitcoin is growing at a phenomenal rate.  The drop from parity over the past 2 months is a healthy correction.   We need more goods and services in direct exchange for BTC.   That is coming that a healthy organic pace and Android apps for person-to-person transfer are under development).    But it will be quite some time before Amazon.com takes bitcoin directly

For more explosive growth what we need is more convertability.  it is too hard to get fiat money in and out of bitcoin.  That is the bottle neck that is preventing the rise to $5/BTC  and higher.  More exchanges much like Mt. Gox will help. Mt. Gox helped get us to  where we are today but something that is easier to use needs to come out.   Just saw an announcement today that britcoin was released to the public for sterling conversion.        That will help. 

the key to explosvie growth is more fluid exhcange between fiat and BTC.  Fiat will continue to co-exist with bitcoin for a long time to come.     What we need is someone to develop a financial service or mechanism to convert BTC and fiat "on the fly" so that a merchant like Amazon.com doesn't even know what you are really paying with.   


Ideally you would have a BTC account that fueles a virtual (or physical) VISA/MASTER card that you could use anywhere.   Think of it has adding backward compability (fiat convenience) to BITCOIN the future of currency.   



I agree 100% and think it could be a profitable and successful business. I'm just concerned there might be legal issues with the anonymity of btc. I suppose no one stops you from depositing cash in to an account or western union though.

Anonymous Debit Card
http://www.asset-protection-international.com/offshore-banking/anonymous-debit-card.php

I think you could do it in the US.  You would just run it out of a offshore juridiction where the rules are looser and VISA TOS compliance is not strictly enforced.   In the US the VISA would look no different than other offshore debit cards. Nobody would know what currency is backing the transactions here.   These offshore debit cards anonymous and you can load it with whatever fiat currency you want.  They need to add BTC to the list of currencies they support and do the conversion on the fly. 

If we could get one of these offshore debit card outfits onboard  with bitcoin it would be huge.   A lot of people that aren't into bitcoin would immediately jump in as soon as they heard about it.

Jered Kenna (TradeHill)
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March 28, 2011, 09:25:08 PM
 #43

But seriously its a lack of goods or services.

Yes, this is spot on. Bitcoin could come a long way just catering to just people concerned with personal integrity (especially on the Internet). There's a rapidly growing amount of those these days, especially over here in Sweden. But there has to be real goods and services for them to buy.

It's growing though, it takes time. Since it started there's been quite an increase in real goods sold for btc.



Bitcoin is growing at a phenomenal rate.  The drop from parity over the past 2 months is a healthy correction.   We need more goods and services in direct exchange for BTC.   That is coming that a healthy organic pace and Android apps for person-to-person transfer are under development).    But it will be quite some time before Amazon.com takes bitcoin directly

For more explosive growth what we need is more convertability.  it is too hard to get fiat money in and out of bitcoin.  That is the bottle neck that is preventing the rise to $5/BTC  and higher.  More exchanges much like Mt. Gox will help. Mt. Gox helped get us to  where we are today but something that is easier to use needs to come out.   Just saw an announcement today that britcoin was released to the public for sterling conversion.        That will help. 

the key to explosvie growth is more fluid exhcange between fiat and BTC.  Fiat will continue to co-exist with bitcoin for a long time to come.     What we need is someone to develop a financial service or mechanism to convert BTC and fiat "on the fly" so that a merchant like Amazon.com doesn't even know what you are really paying with.   


Ideally you would have a BTC account that fueles a virtual (or physical) VISA/MASTER card that you could use anywhere.   Think of it has adding backward compability (fiat convenience) to BITCOIN the future of currency.   



I agree 100% and think it could be a profitable and successful business. I'm just concerned there might be legal issues with the anonymity of btc. I suppose no one stops you from depositing cash in to an account or western union though.

Anonymous Debit Card
http://www.asset-protection-international.com/offshore-banking/anonymous-debit-card.php

I think you could do it in the US.  You would just run it out of a offshore juridiction where the rules are looser and VISA TOS compliance is not strictly enforced.   In the US the VISA would look no different than other offshore debit cards. Nobody would know what currency is backing the transactions here.   These offshore debit cards anonymous and you can load it with whatever fiat currency you want.  They need to add BTC to the list of currencies they support and do the conversion on the fly. 

If we could get one of these offshore debit card outfits onboard  with bitcoin it would be huge.   A lot of people that aren't into bitcoin would immediately jump in as soon as they heard about it.



Man that would be perfect. Essentially you'd be able to buy anything with it that accepted Visa. Naturally you'd lose a small % but it would be worth it. I don't think it would be so hard to get them to accept it if BTC was traded on a major exchange / bigger.

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March 28, 2011, 10:12:01 PM
 #44


Schedule Of Fees
Anonymous Card Fees:   €EURO   $US DOLLAR
Set Up Fee:           €1350   US$1500

man, even for drug dealers, few can afford these fees
Jered Kenna (TradeHill)
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March 28, 2011, 10:23:13 PM
 #45


Schedule Of Fees
Anonymous Card Fees:   €EURO   $US DOLLAR
Set Up Fee:           €1350   US$1500

man, even for drug dealers, few can afford these fees

Jesus that's just to get the card?
I'm assuming you get charged a pct etc too.
What else goes with it?

P.S. drug dealer is pretty general, the guy you buy your rocks from would have trouble but Scarface could afford that.

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March 29, 2011, 01:22:56 AM
 #46


Schedule Of Fees
Anonymous Card Fees:   €EURO   $US DOLLAR
Set Up Fee:           €1350   US$1500

man, even for drug dealers, few can afford these fees

Jesus that's just to get the card?
I'm assuming you get charged a pct etc too.
What else goes with it?

P.S. drug dealer is pretty general, the guy you buy your rocks from would have trouble but Scarface could afford that.

What you are getting for this amount of money is anonymity and offshore protection.   The card is not in your name.   This is one way how wealthy people protect their liquid assets.    I think it is no unreasonable to have this high of a set up fee.  The people who use these cards load them up with a lot of cash.    To make it worthwhile someone would load the equivalent of $25k on these cards.   The bitcoin market isn't there yet but it will get there.   For one person to buy $25k on Mt. Gox would clear out the order book in th currrent market. 

What could happen now is that someone could create these cards with a lower price by leaving out the anonymity and offshore protection.   You would still have transaction fees but as you have said it will be worth it.   

I can envision a day when the wealthy people will load these cards with $100,000 worth of bitcoins iinstead of Euros and use that. At the rate bitcoin is increasing you may not be able to deplete the card.

 
Jered Kenna (TradeHill)
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March 29, 2011, 02:29:16 AM
 #47


Schedule Of Fees
Anonymous Card Fees:   €EURO   $US DOLLAR
Set Up Fee:           €1350   US$1500

man, even for drug dealers, few can afford these fees

Jesus that's just to get the card?
I'm assuming you get charged a pct etc too.
What else goes with it?

P.S. drug dealer is pretty general, the guy you buy your rocks from would have trouble but Scarface could afford that.

What you are getting for this amount of money is anonymity and offshore protection.   The card is not in your name.   This is one way how wealthy people protect their liquid assets.    I think it is no unreasonable to have this high of a set up fee.  The people who use these cards load them up with a lot of cash.    To make it worthwhile someone would load the equivalent of $25k on these cards.   The bitcoin market isn't there yet but it will get there.   For one person to buy $25k on Mt. Gox would clear out the order book in th currrent market. 

What could happen now is that someone could create these cards with a lower price by leaving out the anonymity and offshore protection.   You would still have transaction fees but as you have said it will be worth it.   

I can envision a day when the wealthy people will load these cards with $100,000 worth of bitcoins iinstead of Euros and use that. At the rate bitcoin is increasing you may not be able to deplete the card.

 

Makes sense, if you're going to put 20k or 100k on there then the setup fee is pretty minimal.
I would assume if there is demand then competition will cause other banks to offer lower setup fees.

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March 29, 2011, 01:05:30 PM
 #48


Schedule Of Fees
Anonymous Card Fees:   €EURO   $US DOLLAR
Set Up Fee:           €1350   US$1500

man, even for drug dealers, few can afford these fees

Jesus that's just to get the card?
I'm assuming you get charged a pct etc too.
What else goes with it?

P.S. drug dealer is pretty general, the guy you buy your rocks from would have trouble but Scarface could afford that.

What you are getting for this amount of money is anonymity and offshore protection.   The card is not in your name.   This is one way how wealthy people protect their liquid assets.    I think it is no unreasonable to have this high of a set up fee.  The people who use these cards load them up with a lot of cash.    To make it worthwhile someone would load the equivalent of $25k on these cards.   The bitcoin market isn't there yet but it will get there.   For one person to buy $25k on Mt. Gox would clear out the order book in th currrent market. 

What could happen now is that someone could create these cards with a lower price by leaving out the anonymity and offshore protection.   You would still have transaction fees but as you have said it will be worth it.   

I can envision a day when the wealthy people will load these cards with $100,000 worth of bitcoins iinstead of Euros and use that. At the rate bitcoin is increasing you may not be able to deplete the card.

 

Makes sense, if you're going to put 20k or 100k on there then the setup fee is pretty minimal.
I would assume if there is demand then competition will cause other banks to offer lower setup fees.



You make a great a point though.  The setup fee is too high for most users except very wealthy or for people who just got to have total anonymity (no paper trail with offshore).  These people will come with time but right now we need to get BTC-powered VISAs to the masses.    We need competition to bring it down.   This is a good business opportunity for someone to exploit.     The average the guy would be willing to pay less for a VISA that may not be anonymous but was still linked to a BTC address that did on the fly conversion.   
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March 31, 2011, 04:08:55 AM
 #49

I just skimmed through this thread; interesting stuff.

I think you need the support of the Hawala network. Fuck paypal, fuck credit cards, court the people who are remitting 40% of Kazakhstan's GDP back home.

Excuse my cursing. I think some of you are ignoring what bitcoin is really, really good for - small-scale drug dealing, small-scale money laundering and moderate anonymity. It frustrates me.

Correct me if I'm wrong but there's no real way this thing can be revoked, right? If there are two nodes left on the network to verify transactions then bitcoin still exists. Let's make it three - one at the cigar stand in New York, one in the banking district in Almaty, and one in Moscow where the e-criminals buy internet services with bitcoin. It seems logical to me that this is the direction for bitcoin - not that it should be aimed there, but that it directs itself there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala
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March 31, 2011, 04:32:51 AM
 #50

I just skimmed through this thread; interesting stuff.

I think you need the support of the Hawala network. Fuck paypal, fuck credit cards, court the people who are remitting 40% of Kazakhstan's GDP back home.

Excuse my cursing. I think some of you are ignoring what bitcoin is really, really good for - small-scale drug dealing, small-scale money laundering and moderate anonymity. It frustrates me.

Correct me if I'm wrong but there's no real way this thing can be revoked, right? If there are two nodes left on the network to verify transactions then bitcoin still exists. Let's make it three - one at the cigar stand in New York, one in the banking district in Almaty, and one in Moscow where the e-criminals buy internet services with bitcoin. It seems logical to me that this is the direction for bitcoin - not that it should be aimed there, but that it directs itself there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala

I totally agree with the hawala part.

Imagine if you paid someone Aussie dollars but got a credit at mt gox without the local exchanger actually sending the cash but just keeping a record. If another aussie wanted to withdraw then mt gox sends an email to their aussie agent to deduct from the balance. The agent never actually sends any money except if there is a massive balance which to transfer would not be as costly as sending multiple small amounts.

A wire transfer of 10 000 dollars is cheaper than one of 100 dollars.
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