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BitMagic
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October 10, 2011, 06:32:15 AM
 #101

This reminds me... just a couple of weeks ago somebody allegedly bought a house for 40k btc or something. 

Yeah, not likely. Big problems with mortgage insurance. You need someone to insure the purchase, and I can't see a single insurer ever considering using BTC as a valid transaction. If the seller declared bankruptcy, all of their assets, including real estate sold in the last 3 months is examined. All a buyer needs to do is claim it a "worthless internet currency" and the courts would revert any purchase in a second. That discounts any tax-related avoidance issues with the county clerk of courts (who would refuse the deed where no taxes are paid), and a resulting void purchase.

You couldn't possibly mortgage the property without legitimate insurance, and no insurer in their right mind would insure a BTC purchase like that.

Sorry to burst your libertairan bubble land, folks. Property (and likely cars), are not a gentlemen's agreement.

You know what's funniest about this? Those laws protect buyers from ridiculous scam artists that have been operating for decades in USD. The kind that are fleecing BTC users on a weekly basis. Free market, indeed.

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Cluster2k
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October 10, 2011, 06:57:17 AM
 #102

This reminds me... just a couple of weeks ago somebody allegedly bought a house for 40k btc or something. 
Sorry to burst your libertairan bubble land, folks. Property (and likely cars), are not a gentlemen's agreement.

Having just purchased a house, I can second this.  Under local law, the lands title office requires a strict procedure for the exchange of cheques (written in dollars, not bitcoins) and signatures.  Banks are instantly going to say a firm "no" if they find someone is trying to pay using bitcoins.  Convert the bitcoins to dollars and then use them perhaps?  Then what's the point in using bitcoins?  Less security than going through official channels, more hassle and more paperwork.

I highly doubt anyone has done a bitcoin based property deal that can actually be proven to exist.

I also can't imagine someone doing a serious deal in a commodity that's so unstable in value.  That 40k in bitcoins has fallen by two thirds in value in three months.  Better cash out real quick after the deal is done....  In my house purchase agreement, signing over the title of the land and actually paying for it occurred 6 weeks after I agreed to buy it for X dollars.  Imagine agreeing to 40k bitcoins then and seeing your property sell for half price 6 weeks later...

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BitMagic
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October 10, 2011, 05:38:41 PM
 #103

Sell the house for cash. Seller then buys Bitcoins from the buyer for same amount of cash. 

Those laws that protect people also prevent. Every extra step required adds additional cost. It may be the difference between buying and renting for many.

Of course, if you are talking about the US, you don't really own your property anyway. Try not paying your property tax and see what happens. The real owners show up and remove you from their property. Now that's a real knee slapper! It's especially funny when it happens to senior citizens who have lived in the same place for over 50 years!

HAW! Hilarious that those silly old people, who are paying their mortgage with social security so they have a roof in the first place, must be getting shirked by the government! HAW!

I am tearing my hair out at the sheer idiocy of your post.

1) You buy a house, you insure the transaction. Cash, card, loan from a bank, a signed Mario Lopez self portrait; it doesn't matter how you pay.

2) You insure/use a bank for a mortgage, you pay fees. You pay even more fees to buy 40k BTC (close to $12,000, not including inflation/deflation losses).

3) Good luck trying to deposit $500,000 in cash to your local bank without the Feds taking an interest.

I've got a nice link for you retarded US libertarian fools in the general area of tax evasion. I hope you all get arrested trying some of these.

Frivolous tax arguments debunked by the IRS.

Please give me your money, because I am a shameless libertarian elite who deserves your money more than you do: 9Hkao8U82WWDp6SQGn4k7ad9gT1LWeL5s3
old_engineer
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October 11, 2011, 11:01:10 AM
 #104

Oh, it looks like the pointless inflammatory BitMagic has graced us with his presence again, and he still doesn't know what he's talking about.

Case in point: "You pay even more fees to buy 40k BTC (close to $12,000, not including inflation/deflation losses)." What sort of an idiot would use an exchange where they pay 7.5% ($12k/$160k at $4/btc) to exchange bitcoins?  And even if he meant 0.75%, he's still way off: Mt. Gox drops the percentage to 0.2% at those volumes, so the fee would actually be $320.  Also, there's #bitcoin_otc, where trades of arbitrary size can be done without any exchange fee whatsoever - obviously he's a n00b that doesn't know that exchanges are relatively new to bitcoin. Of course, the web of trust might not be extended to someone with his complete lack of social skills - I certainly wouldn't trade with anyone that acted like him.
proudhon
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October 11, 2011, 12:54:53 PM
 #105

I just wanted to get some clarification.  We're all always going to try to push the bitcoin price lower by always selling our bitcoins at any price no matter what.  Right?
fivebells
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October 11, 2011, 01:02:44 PM
 #106

Not necessarily, but for now that seems to be the pattern.
Tril
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October 11, 2011, 01:05:54 PM
 #107


I highly doubt anyone has done a bitcoin based property deal that can actually be proven to exist.


ok you guys are right, the bitcoin world doesn't play nice with traditional, PAPER based title tracking systems.
Time to make them obsolete: launch a new blockchain to track title deeds.

HHOS.
Shinobi
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October 11, 2011, 01:50:29 PM
 #108

God, this was all so obvious. All new folks here, I see. The old ones must have bailed.

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October 11, 2011, 02:29:34 PM
 #109

God, this was all so obvious. All new folks here, I see. The old ones must have bailed.

Incorrect.   If it was new folks (providing fresh money) as is needed to grow the pyramid we wouldn't be trading at $4.
Shinobi
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October 11, 2011, 05:33:57 PM
 #110

I was referring to the names I see on this board. You are right, no significant new money has been infused into Bitcoin to offset the flood of mined coins being cashed out constantly. But lets be honest, everyone here knows that Bitcoin as a speculative tool was doomed. The only folks I imagine left here are those who fueled by some ideological imperative (Evorhees, for example) and those who just want to see the final Chapter in the drama, before Bitcoin returns to the obscure crypto-geek toy it was back in May.

God, this was all so obvious. All new folks here, I see. The old ones must have bailed.

Incorrect.   If it was new folks (providing fresh money) as is needed to grow the pyramid we wouldn't be trading at $4.

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BitMagic
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October 11, 2011, 06:22:43 PM
 #111

Oh, it looks like the pointless inflammatory BitMagic has graced us with his presence again, and he still doesn't know what he's talking about.

Case in point: "You pay even more fees to buy 40k BTC (close to $12,000, not including inflation/deflation losses)." What sort of an idiot would use an exchange where they pay 7.5% ($12k/$160k at $4/btc) to exchange bitcoins?  And even if he meant 0.75%, he's still way off: Mt. Gox drops the percentage to 0.2% at those volumes, so the fee would actually be $320.  Also, there's #bitcoin_otc, where trades of arbitrary size can be done without any exchange fee whatsoever - obviously he's a n00b that doesn't know that exchanges are relatively new to bitcoin. Of course, the web of trust might not be extended to someone with his complete lack of social skills - I certainly wouldn't trade with anyone that acted like him.

Welcome back, old_engineer! I know you just love it when I have something to say that makes you look stupid. Indeed, I dropped a decimal (40k BTC * $5 = $200,000 * 0.6% = $1,200). Fortunately for me, your omissions make me look even better. Fuck fees, obviously. You wouldn't have anything to say about the truth of the matter, because you'd rather poke at arithmetic mistakes than face the reality: insurance.

I certainly do know that exchanges are relatively new to bitcoin, but don't expect anybody but an idiot to be holding 40k coins after the last 3 months, nor idiotic enough to buy a piece of property with it in the first place. Lol, insert early adopters / the manipulator / globalist conspiracy here.

I promise you, old_engineer, I wouldn't accept your bitcoins even as a tip; because I know better than to own a failing commodity. 

I think the entire idea is preposterous at this point. I just wanted to point out that with some extra steps involved, people could make it work.

Riiiiiiiight, we were arguing that if you didn't use bitcoins, it would be possible to buy a house with bitcoins.  Roll Eyes Don't play dumb, you know what we were discussing: a property sale in bitcoins, and why it could never happen. Also we were arguing about you saying that the existence of taxes deny private ownership, which you ignored for good reason. It's lolbertarian garbage along the lines of constitutionalist arguments I have lovingly debunked.

As a relatively new follower of the BTC fiasco (jumped in June, but kept my life plan out of it), I can say without a doubt that it has been plagued from the start by ideologues like you and old_engineer, pumping your fists screaming up uP UP, while nodding sagely at all the anti-speculation chatter, and patting each other the back for a job well done as your investments and libertarian dreams circle the drain. I love a good experiment, even a failing one, which is why I'm really here. I guess I just underestimated the degree to which you would deny obvious criticisms on nothing but faith and banal pedestals.

I was referring to the names I see on this board. You are right, no significant new money has been infused into Bitcoin to offset the flood of mined coins being cashed out constantly. But lets be honest, everyone here knows that Bitcoin as a speculative tool was doomed. The only folks I imagine left here are those who fueled by some ideological imperative (Evorhees, for example) and those who just want to see the final Chapter in the drama, before Bitcoin returns to the obscure crypto-geek toy it was back in May.

Here you are, ladies and gentlemen. One more voice of reason for the doomed hopeful.

Please give me your money, because I am a shameless libertarian elite who deserves your money more than you do: 9Hkao8U82WWDp6SQGn4k7ad9gT1LWeL5s3
Crypt_Current
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October 11, 2011, 06:26:58 PM
 #112

Oh, it looks like the pointless inflammatory BitMagic has graced us with his presence again, and he still doesn't know what he's talking about.

Case in point: "You pay even more fees to buy 40k BTC (close to $12,000, not including inflation/deflation losses)." What sort of an idiot would use an exchange where they pay 7.5% ($12k/$160k at $4/btc) to exchange bitcoins?  And even if he meant 0.75%, he's still way off: Mt. Gox drops the percentage to 0.2% at those volumes, so the fee would actually be $320.  Also, there's #bitcoin_otc, where trades of arbitrary size can be done without any exchange fee whatsoever - obviously he's a n00b that doesn't know that exchanges are relatively new to bitcoin. Of course, the web of trust might not be extended to someone with his complete lack of social skills - I certainly wouldn't trade with anyone that acted like him.

Welcome back, old_engineer! I know you just love it when I have something to say that makes you look stupid. Indeed, I dropped a decimal (40k BTC * $5 = $200,000 * 0.6% = $1,200). Fortunately for me, your omissions make me look even better. Fuck fees, obviously. You wouldn't have anything to say about the truth of the matter, because you'd rather poke at arithmetic mistakes than face the reality: insurance.

I certainly do know that exchanges are relatively new to bitcoin, but don't expect anybody but an idiot to be holding 40k coins after the last 3 months, nor idiotic enough to buy a piece of property with it in the first place. Lol, insert early adopters / the manipulator / globalist conspiracy here.

I promise you, old_engineer, I wouldn't accept your bitcoins even as a tip; because I know better than to own a failing commodity. 

I think the entire idea is preposterous at this point. I just wanted to point out that with some extra steps involved, people could make it work.

Riiiiiiiight, we were arguing that if you didn't use bitcoins, it would be possible to buy a house with bitcoins.  Roll Eyes Don't play dumb, you know what we were discussing: a property sale in bitcoins, and why it could never happen. Also we were arguing about you saying that the existence of taxes deny private ownership, which you ignored for good reason. It's lolbertarian garbage along the lines of constitutionalist arguments I have lovingly debunked.

As a relatively new follower of the BTC fiasco (jumped in June, but kept my life plan out of it), I can say without a doubt that it has been plagued from the start by ideologues like you and old_engineer, pumping your fists screaming up uP UP, while nodding sagely at all the anti-speculation chatter, and patting each other the back for a job well done as your investments and libertarian dreams circle the drain. I love a good experiment, even a failing one, which is why I'm really here. I guess I just underestimated the degree to which you would deny obvious criticisms on nothing but faith and banal pedestals.

People here do stuff on more than faith and banal pedestals.  I have personally witnessed some very sparkly pedestals.

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BitMagic
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October 11, 2011, 06:38:07 PM
 #113

People here do stuff on more than faith and banal pedestals.  I have personally witnessed some very sparkly pedestals.

This is probably the best quote I've seen on the forums.

Please give me your money, because I am a shameless libertarian elite who deserves your money more than you do: 9Hkao8U82WWDp6SQGn4k7ad9gT1LWeL5s3
Crypt_Current
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October 11, 2011, 06:39:12 PM
 #114

People here do stuff on more than faith and banal pedestals.  I have personally witnessed some very sparkly pedestals.

This is probably the best quote I've seen on the forums.

Show your appreciation by donating.  :-D

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Shinobi
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October 11, 2011, 06:41:47 PM
 #115

Quote
As a relatively new follower of the BTC fiasco (jumped in June, but kept my life plan out of it), I can say without a doubt that it has been plagued from the start by ideologues like you and old_engineer, pumping your fists screaming up uP UP, while nodding sagely at all the anti-speculation chatter, and patting each other the back for a job well done as your investments and libertarian dreams circle the drain. I love a good experiment, even a failing one, which is why I'm really here. I guess I just underestimated the degree to which you would deny obvious criticisms on nothing but faith and banal pedestals.

Well said. This pretty much sums up the ideologues here. Armchair revolutionaries calling for death of imvestment banks, and day-trading while doing so.

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Crypt_Current
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October 11, 2011, 06:48:48 PM
 #116

Quote
As a relatively new follower of the BTC fiasco (jumped in June, but kept my life plan out of it), I can say without a doubt that it has been plagued from the start by ideologues like you and old_engineer, pumping your fists screaming up uP UP, while nodding sagely at all the anti-speculation chatter, and patting each other the back for a job well done as your investments and libertarian dreams circle the drain. I love a good experiment, even a failing one, which is why I'm really here. I guess I just underestimated the degree to which you would deny obvious criticisms on nothing but faith and banal pedestals.

Well said. This pretty much sums up the ideologues here. Armchair revolutionaries calling for death of imvestment banks, and day-trading while doing so.

Don't judge, mang.  My chair has no arms.  IT ISN'T EVEN REALLY A CHAIR!

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BitMagic
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October 11, 2011, 07:08:35 PM
 #117

Show your appreciation by donating.  :-D

I would, if I owned any BTC! Cheesy

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Crypt_Current
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October 11, 2011, 07:16:32 PM
 #118

Show your appreciation by donating.  :-D

I would, if I owned any BTC! Cheesy

Now would be an excellent time to buy in.

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old_engineer
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October 11, 2011, 10:29:11 PM
 #119

Oh, it looks like the pointless inflammatory BitMagic has graced us with his presence again, and he still doesn't know what he's talking about.
Welcome back, old_engineer! I know you just love it when I have something to say that makes you look stupid. Indeed, I dropped a decimal (40k BTC * $5 = $200,000 * 0.6% = $1,200). Fortunately for me, your omissions make me look even better. Fuck fees, obviously.

I'm glad to see you don't disappoint, PIBM.  My point is that if a $12k exchange fee on a $200k purchase passed your smell test, instead of calling it a "downpayment", you obviously have no experience in these matters, and no one should heed your advice.

Quote
You wouldn't have anything to say about the truth of the matter, because you'd rather poke at arithmetic mistakes than face the reality: insurance.

Aaaand it looks like insurance isn't your specialty, either. Mortgage insurance, and all the formalities around MI, are only required in the US if you pay less than 20% of the principle as a down payment.  And of course, a mortgage is only required if you can't buy a house free-and-clear, and require a bank to own the property for you. The OP said nothing about getting a mortgage, just that 40k btc was paid for a house.

Perhaps Bitcoin denominated mortgages and mortgage insurance could happen in the future, but that's far-off speculation, and bitcoin prices would have to be more stable than the local fiat currency.  I don't think this would ever happen in the US in your lifetime, but some fiat currencies have experienced 100%+ monthly (not yearly) inflation - see Argentina in the 90s - and if bitcoin prices are relatively stable 10 years from now, bitcoin could be a more reliable store of value than the local fiat currency, and there's no reason why an entrepreneur couldn't start providing bitcoin-denominated mortgages in that country.

Quote
Don't play dumb, you know what we were discussing: a property sale in bitcoins, and why it could never happen

No, there is nothing that prevents someone from paying for property right now in the US with any combination of USD, bitcoins, or goats.  Once two parties agree on the payment method and sign the sales agreement, the only paperwork filed with the state is the title change, which is filed at the recorder's office.  Taxes are calculated as a percentage of the sale price, which would be done as USD equivalent, same as if you sell your house for a herd of goats and two oxen.  Being impossible to forge, the Bitcoin blockchain could provide proof of payment that would hold up in a court of law.

And for the record, I'm not a libertarian, I own no bitcoins, and I used to be be young and ignorant once, but I didn't pretend that I knew it all.
BitMagic
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October 11, 2011, 10:59:53 PM
 #120

Aaaand it looks like insurance isn't your specialty, either. Mortgage insurance, and all the formalities around MI, are only required in the US if you pay less than 20% of the principle as a down payment.  And of course, a mortgage is only required if you can't buy a house free-and-clear, and require a bank to own the property for you. The OP said nothing about getting a mortgage, just that 40k btc was paid for a house.

Whelp, you caught me in another typo, which you might have been able to fully realize had you known anything about house-buying in the first place. I was actually talking about title insurance. You know, that insurance you purchase no matter how you pay for your house? Yeah, the same insurance that prevents bankruptcy trustees (the seller, perhaps?) from seeking a court order to void the sale because it was paid in "worthless internet scam dollars."

No title insurer would ever insure a house paid in BTC right now.

I apologize for the confusion. Now stop being a contrarian and accept that you're an idiot. BTC, now, is not going anywhere close to that level of transaction. It won't be here in 10 years, and you are a libertarian.

Please give me your money, because I am a shameless libertarian elite who deserves your money more than you do: 9Hkao8U82WWDp6SQGn4k7ad9gT1LWeL5s3
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