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Author Topic: WHere are the 7800's?????  (Read 2650 times)
m3sSh3aD
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October 09, 2011, 10:47:01 PM
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Sorry but i want one Smiley Any news on if manufacturers or even retailers are stocking them up.... I want to see 800 m/hash from a single card..... Smiley
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October 09, 2011, 11:04:46 PM
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last article i read said there was a demonstration but no new news more delays likley.

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October 09, 2011, 11:44:21 PM
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There have been some unconfirmed reports that 7800s have been delayed until next year.
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October 10, 2011, 04:18:55 AM
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I want to see 800 m/hash from a single card..... Smiley

Ahh aren't there several cards now that can get 800 m/hash? And at a much better cost than the latest high end card will be.

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October 10, 2011, 07:50:58 AM
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There have been some unconfirmed reports that 7800s have been delayed until next year.

I've heard they said that series 6xxx is so well selling, that launching early 7xxx is not worthy.

I can't imagine why 6xxx is so wealthy for them... :-D

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October 10, 2011, 12:40:30 PM
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Ahh aren't there several cards now that can get 800 m/hash? And at a much better cost than the latest high end card will be.

Plus no 78xx card is going to get 800 MH/s.  The 7800 series is the mid level cards.  If it has similar efficiency (operations per hash) as 6xxx cards (which it should having same VLIW5 architecture) then we would expect peformance something like this:

Code:
7570 768SP @ 750MHz   50W   ~167 MH/s
7670 768SP @ 900MHz   60W   ~200 MH/s
7850 1408SP @ 850MHz   90W   ~350 MH/s
7870 1536SP @ 950MHz  120W   ~420 MH/s
The main advantages of 7xxx series is higher performance per $$ and per watt.  ~4MH/W vs 2 MH/W.  Still those expecting 800MH/s+ out of a <$200 card are going to be disapointed.

The 7870 is upper mid range card (equivelent to 6870 today which launched @ $199).  So pretty impressive you are getting about 50% more hashes per $ and about 100% more hashes per watt.   Still a far cry from 800MH/s.

The pricing is a guess on my part but AMD has OEM relationships to maintain and there are certain pricepoints the market is looking for.  My guess is that at launch we will see the following retail prices:
7870 - $199
7850 - $149
7670 - $99 (maybe up to  $119)
7570 - $79 (maybe up to $99)

This would be inline with prior launches and would fill all the price points that OEM are looking to move cards at.

Now the 7950, 7970, and 7990 will likely offer some impressive performance but they use a new architecture so we need to wait and see how they perform at mining.



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October 10, 2011, 08:01:24 PM
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Ahh aren't there several cards now that can get 800 m/hash? And at a much better cost than the latest high end card will be.

Plus no 78xx card is going to get 800 MH/s.  The 7800 series is the mid level cards.  If it has similar efficiency (operations per hash) as 6xxx cards (which it should having same VLIW5 architecture) then we would expect peformance something like this:

Code:
7570 768SP @ 750MHz   50W   ~167 MH/s
7670 768SP @ 900MHz   60W   ~200 MH/s
7850 1408SP @ 850MHz   90W   ~350 MH/s
7870 1536SP @ 950MHz  120W   ~420 MH/s
The main advantages of 7xxx series is higher performance per $$ and per watt.  ~4MH/W vs 2 MH/W.  Still those expecting 800MH/s+ out of a <$200 card are going to be disapointed.

The 7870 is upper mid range card (equivelent to 6870 today which launched @ $199).  So pretty impressive you are getting about 50% more hashes per $ and about 100% more hashes per watt.   Still a far cry from 800MH/s.

The pricing is a guess on my part but AMD has OEM relationships to maintain and there are certain pricepoints the market is looking for.  My guess is that at launch we will see the following retail prices:
7870 - $199
7850 - $149
7670 - $99 (maybe up to  $119)
7570 - $79 (maybe up to $99)

This would be inline with prior launches and would fill all the price points that OEM are looking to move cards at.

Now the 7950, 7970, and 7990 will likely offer some impressive performance but they use a new architecture so we need to wait and see how they perform at mining.


I hope your pricing is right but if you do the math, 40nm to 28nm give you an extra 85% surface area on the chip on a squared basis (which chips are). You think they leave that space empty? No, 7850 is basically a 5850/6950 and the 7870 is a 5870/6970. If you check and look at the 79XX series, they are a new design, which i dont think will be good for our purposes. I'm thinking AMD know what there doing here and the 78XX is going be a hit with us and most people, and there 79XX is going be to compete for the fledgling PC gaming market. I dont think the 79XX will be much better than the 78XX basically for mining.
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October 10, 2011, 08:16:41 PM
 #8

Not sure what you are trying to say.

Still 40nm to 28nm is 50% die size not 85%.  (28/40)^2 = 0.49.

This doesn't mean the die will be the same size.  Yields will be lower and cost higher w/ 28nm to make product price compeititive AMD will look to shrink average die (and thus get more chips per wafer).  AMD won't leave "space unused".  They make chips on giant 12" wafers.  Smaller die = more chips per wafer = lower cost per chip. 


The 7850 isn't the 6950 replacement.  It only offers roughly the same performance despite having half the die size.  So AMD is going to charge the same price as 6950 despite their cost effectively falling in half.  Have you forgotten about competition.  If AMD does that, nobody buys 78xx series chips and Nvidia laughs all the way to the bank w/ their competitively priced 28nm chips.

Chips get faster.  That is a reality in silicon products.  Yeterdays high end is tomorrows entry level.

Nothing is static.  Just because 6950 performance cost a lot and is a upper mid range card doesn't mean it will always be that.  The 7xxx specs show us AMD will be moving 6950 performance down to entry level cards.  6970/6990 level performance becomes the new mid range and 6990+ performance becomes the the high end.

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October 10, 2011, 08:20:06 PM
 #9

question:

if the die size is half the size and the wattage is lower with these 32 and 28 nm chips,

should one expect a smaller card then?

something that might take 1 slot instead of 2 (current)... smaller fans maybe?

anyone have any info on the possible changes in cooling of these cards?

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October 10, 2011, 08:33:05 PM
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question:

if the die size is half the size and the wattage is lower with these 32 and 28 nm chips,

should one expect a smaller card then?

something that might take 1 slot instead of 2 (current)... smaller fans maybe?

anyone have any info on the possible changes in cooling of these cards?

Probably not for the 6870 & 6850.

A watt is a watt it doesn't care how efficient the GPU is.  To displace 120W will take roughly the same cooling hardware on 7xxx series as it does on 6xxx series.

Best thing to do is look up existing cards with similar wattage.

The 7870 should be 120W that would be comparable to 6850.
The 7850 should be 90W that would be comparable to 6750.

Both are dual card slots (some are single slot but take up the space in next slot).

The smaller cards likely will be true single card slots.
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October 10, 2011, 09:19:53 PM
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i think powercolor makes the single slot 6850... wouldn't be surprised if some slick design come from them with 7xxx

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October 10, 2011, 09:32:26 PM
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Not sure what you are trying to say.

Still 40nm to 28nm is 50% die size not 85%.  (28/40)^2 = 0.49.

This doesn't mean the die will be the same size.  Yields will be lower and cost higher w/ 28nm to make product price compeititive AMD will look to shrink average die (and thus get more chips per wafer).  AMD won't leave "space unused".  They make chips on giant 12" wafers.  Smaller die = more chips per wafer = lower cost per chip. 


The 7850 isn't the 6950 replacement.  It only offers roughly the same performance despite having half the die size.  So AMD is going to charge the same price as 6950 despite their cost effectively falling in half.  Have you forgotten about competition.  If AMD does that, nobody buys 78xx series chips and Nvidia laughs all the way to the bank w/ their competitively priced 28nm chips.

Chips get faster.  That is a reality in silicon products.  Yeterdays high end is tomorrows entry level.

Nothing is static.  Just because 6950 performance cost a lot and is a upper mid range card doesn't mean it will always be that.  The 7xxx specs show us AMD will be moving 6950 performance down to entry level cards.  6970/6990 level performance becomes the new mid range and 6990+ performance becomes the the high end.



We will see.... thats all im saying
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October 10, 2011, 09:52:41 PM
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We will see.... thats all im saying

Well I *hope* you are wrong.  It would be a massive step backwards for gaming and GPU.  Might as well scrap plans for any new games in 2012 either push them back or scale them down to take advantage of existing hardware.   While you are at it sell any stock you own in AMD as no gamer is going to upgrade for no performance gain and pay another $400 for the privilege.  AMD only saving grace has been strong graphic sales and if the 7xxx series is pathetically priced like that it will kill off all demand.     

Actually I don't hope, I 100% know you are wrong.  The 7870 won't be priced at $400 (6970 retail price).  I am willing to place a bet of any amount on any bitcoin betting system against that. 

Saying "We will see" is kind meaninless. 

I could say "I think the 7570 will deliver 438940238 TH/s on 0.5watts and cost $1.95, we will see!"  Grin
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October 10, 2011, 09:58:21 PM
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We will see.... thats all im saying

Well I *hope* you are wrong.  It would be a massive step backwards for gaming and GPU.  Might as well scrap plans for any new games in 2012 either push them back or scale them down to take advantage of existing hardware.   While you are at it sell any stock you own in AMD as no gamer is going to upgrade for no performance gain and pay another $400 for the privilege.  AMD only saving grace has been strong graphic sales and if the 7xxx series is pathetically priced like that it will kill off all demand.     

Actually I don't hope, I 100% know you are wrong.  The 7870 won't be priced at $400 (6970 retail price).  I am willing to place a bet of any amount on any bitcoin betting system against that. 

Saying "We will see" is kind meaninless. 

I could say "I think the 7570 will deliver 438940238 TH/s on 0.5watts and cost $1.95, we will see!"  Grin

Guys it really is damn clear how it is going to pan out.

7800 are based on VLIW4 but 28nm just like current cards so not much better at mining than current cards just more power efficient etc.
7900 are based on CGN new thing at 28nm and will be like Nvidia so not good for mining.

5870 cards are the best for bitcoin mining ! There will be no replacement for them in the future, sadly. Maybe I should stock up on some more !?
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October 10, 2011, 10:02:40 PM
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Guys it really is damn clear how it is going to pan out.

7800 are based on VLIW4 but 28nm just like current cards but more efficient and at much lower price point so will be very good for mining.
7900 are based on CGN new thing at 28nm and we don't know how (in)efficient it will be at mining.

Fixed your post.  If the price point of cards fall then you get same hashing power for lower price and lower electrical draw.  How exactly would that be bad for mining?

Quote
5870 cards are the best for bitcoin mining ! There will be no replacement for them in the future, sadly. Maybe I should stock up on some more !?

Actually the 5970 is better for mining however the only reason they are good for mining is the price has been reduced.  5970 @ today's $400 to $500 per card = good deal in MH/$.  5970 at initial retail of $780 per card = not so good deal in MH/$.

It is getting harder and harder to buy 5970s even on ebay.  Got outbid on 4 auctions today (trying to get them for $350 per card).
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October 10, 2011, 11:00:22 PM
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Guys it really is damn clear how it is going to pan out.

7800 are based on VLIW4 but 28nm just like current cards but more efficient and at much lower price point so will be very good for mining.
7900 are based on CGN new thing at 28nm and we don't know how (in)efficient it will be at mining.

Fixed your post.  If the price point of cards fall then you get same hashing power for lower price and lower electrical draw.  How exactly would that be bad for mining?

Quote
5870 cards are the best for bitcoin mining ! There will be no replacement for them in the future, sadly. Maybe I should stock up on some more !?

Actually the 5970 is better for mining however the only reason they are good for mining is the price has been reduced.  5970 @ today's $400 to $500 per card = good deal in MH/$.  5970 at initial retail of $780 per card = not so good deal in MH/$.

It is getting harder and harder to buy 5970s even on ebay.  Got outbid on 4 auctions today (trying to get them for $350 per card).

5870 is best hash per ££££($$$$) or the 5850 OC'd. 5870's are like rocking horse poo to find, and 5850's are more and more the same. 5970's are still silly money, especially with the dip in BTC, but hey, thats half the fun Smiley

7900's in my personal opinion are going be poor for mining. Ill be buying plenty of 78XX's though, the power saving alone means i go from using £200+ 1200W PSU's to more sensible 800ish. Its win win all the time with die shrinks so who cares Smiley
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October 10, 2011, 11:31:27 PM
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5870 is best hash per ££££($$$$) or the 5850 OC'd. 5870's are like rocking horse poo to find, and 5850's are more and more the same. 5970's are still silly money, especially with the dip in BTC, but hey, thats half the fun Smiley

How do you figure that? How many hashes per 5870 and what price are you getting them at?

Example:
$280 5870, 460MH/s = 1.64 MH/$
$400 5970, 700MH/s = 1.75 MH/$

Unless you are finding 5870 at less than $250 per card new I don't see how they are best hasher per $$$.
Are far as the 5970s being "silly money" unless you are only buying one card, 2x 5870 cost more than a 5970.

5970 makes deployment simpler and has higher electrical efficiency.  However keep buying those 5870s I don't want the price to go up on 5970s.
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October 10, 2011, 11:35:39 PM
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5870 is best hash per ££££($$$$) or the 5850 OC'd. 5870's are like rocking horse poo to find, and 5850's are more and more the same. 5970's are still silly money, especially with the dip in BTC, but hey, thats half the fun Smiley

How do you figure that? How many hashes per 5870 and what price are you getting them at?

Example:
$280 5870, 460MH/s = 1.64 MH/$
$400 5970, 700MH/s = 1.75 MH/$

Unless you are finding 5870 at less than $250 per card new I don't see how they are best hasher per $$$.
Are far as the 5970s being "silly money" unless you are only buying one card, 2x 5870 cost more than a 5970.

5970 makes deployment simpler and has higher electrical efficiency.  However keep buying those 5870s I don't want the price to go up on 5970s.


Trust me mate. Here in the UK we get foked over by the gov. The prices are insane here. 2x5870 much cheaper than a 5970. 400 USD for 5970 is MAGIC to us.
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October 14, 2011, 09:25:34 PM
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5 series is all but sold out now. 6 series isnt worth it with the 7 series iminent so its limbo mode for AMD until they sort it out at TSMC then. I HOPE to see the 7800's before year out.
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October 14, 2011, 09:42:09 PM
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A watt is a watt it doesn't care how efficient the GPU is.  To displace 120W will take roughly the same cooling hardware on 7xxx series as it does on 6xxx series.


Actually, it may take more cooling. Smaller die with same power dissipation equals higher thermal density. So you may need beefier cooling to keep the card from melting. Thats assuming power consumption would remain equal, something I doubt.

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October 17, 2011, 06:20:30 PM
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Ya I'm also waiting for the Radeon HD7999 quad core, with 800mh per core, and of course, crossfire 4 of them.

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October 19, 2011, 05:23:12 AM
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7900 are based on CGN new thing at 28nm and will be like Nvidia so not good for mining.

We don't know that. They still have the sheer shader count that makes them more effective than the 5870/6970 in mining.

That is of course unless the new shader architecture does not incur significant performance loss in password hashing. Given how the bitcoin fiasco pretty much cleared out the 5k/6k generation of cards ultra fast, they'd have to be stupid to not make their new arch mining-friendly. And since the shaders are now far more powerful each, for all we know they may end up with higher mhash than a 5k/6k with equal shader count.

We will see in a few months.

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October 19, 2011, 08:34:46 AM
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How do you figure that? How many hashes per 5870 and what price are you getting them at?

Example:
$280 5870, 460MH/s = 1.64 MH/$
$400 5970, 700MH/s = 1.75 MH/$

Unless you are finding 5870 at less than $250 per card new I don't see how they are best hasher per $$$.
Are far as the 5970s being "silly money" unless you are only buying one card, 2x 5870 cost more than a 5970.

5970 makes deployment simpler and has higher electrical efficiency.  However keep buying those 5870s I don't want the price to go up on 5970s.

Trust me mate. Here in the UK we get foked over by the gov. The prices are insane here. 2x5870 much cheaper than a 5970. 400 USD for 5970 is MAGIC to us.
Not to mention the cost of electricity... anyway, when was the last time you saw a 5850 or 5870 on a UK website (new, not overclocked till the original owner smelled smoke and returned it under distance selling regulations Roll Eyes ) - let alone for sensible money?

Remember, manufacturers are *still* turning out new designs of cards using the 5830 cores - I spotted a load for sale on videocardshop.co.uk and picked some up, thinking they'd be the same 'Value' 5830 (made by Peak, with two protruding tall heatpipes, every one with snapped fan housing screws, though that didn't stop them working, and all with completely random overclocking potential from extreme to limited).

They weren't - they were new XFX units - a completely new design I hadn't seen before, no complete card shroud, just a spiral-heatpipe fan cooler and a passive heatsink on the VRMs. I haven't tried overclocking these in anger yet, but the one I've got up and running seems OK (around 5˚C hotter than the Peak twin-heatpipe shrouded cards, at 850/300 and around 275 MH/sec).

I presume that all the Cypress cards (5830, 5850, 5870) are effectively the same chip but graded according to defects, right? Or are they specifically designed differently? Seems odd that there's still a supply of *new* Cypress silicon into the market - there's obviously demand because the 5830 is pretty decent in terms of hash per watt in bitcoin mining, but if these new XFX designs aren't just using up surplus production, and AMD are still running Cypress chips on their fabs, then we may be waiting longer for the 78xx cards than expected.

IMO, I'd be happy with identical hashing performance but half the power consumption. In the UK, electricity is the main cost for heavy bitcoin mining...

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October 19, 2011, 08:50:22 AM
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How do you figure that? How many hashes per 5870 and what price are you getting them at?

Example:
$280 5870, 460MH/s = 1.64 MH/$
$400 5970, 700MH/s = 1.75 MH/$

Unless you are finding 5870 at less than $250 per card new I don't see how they are best hasher per $$$.
Are far as the 5970s being "silly money" unless you are only buying one card, 2x 5870 cost more than a 5970.

5970 makes deployment simpler and has higher electrical efficiency.  However keep buying those 5870s I don't want the price to go up on 5970s.

Trust me mate. Here in the UK we get foked over by the gov. The prices are insane here. 2x5870 much cheaper than a 5970. 400 USD for 5970 is MAGIC to us.
Not to mention the cost of electricity... anyway, when was the last time you saw a 5850 or 5870 on a UK website (new, not overclocked till the original owner smelled smoke and returned it under distance selling regulations Roll Eyes ) - let alone for sensible money?

Remember, manufacturers are *still* turning out new designs of cards using the 5830 cores - I spotted a load for sale on videocardshop.co.uk and picked some up, thinking they'd be the same 'Value' 5830 (made by Peak, with two protruding tall heatpipes, every one with snapped fan housing screws, though that didn't stop them working, and all with completely random overclocking potential from extreme to limited).

They weren't - they were new XFX units - a completely new design I hadn't seen before, no complete card shroud, just a spiral-heatpipe fan cooler and a passive heatsink on the VRMs. I haven't tried overclocking these in anger yet, but the one I've got up and running seems OK (around 5˚C hotter than the Peak twin-heatpipe shrouded cards, at 850/300 and around 275 MH/sec).

I presume that all the Cypress cards (5830, 5850, 5870) are effectively the same chip but graded according to defects, right? Or are they specifically designed differently? Seems odd that there's still a supply of *new* Cypress silicon into the market - there's obviously demand because the 5830 is pretty decent in terms of hash per watt in bitcoin mining, but if these new XFX designs aren't just using up surplus production, and AMD are still running Cypress chips on their fabs, then we may be waiting longer for the 78xx cards than expected.

IMO, I'd be happy with identical hashing performance but half the power consumption. In the UK, electricity is the main cost for heavy bitcoin mining...


They just ran out at OCUK of sapphire 5850's, which they sold from £100 inc VAT about 3 month ago to £160 inc VAT 2 months ago. I got loads of them and all do 1000/300 and use a shroud like XFX's on them. Unlike cheap and nasty XFX, sapphire released Trixx, An overclocking utility. I've had an XFX 5870 die on me cause of the cheap fans they use.

I agree now there hard to find, But OCUK have been pumping them out like theres no tomorrow haha. Your loss Smiley
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October 19, 2011, 08:58:11 AM
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They just ran out at OCUK of sapphire 5850's, which they sold from £100 inc VAT about 3 month ago to £160 inc VAT 2 months ago. I got loads of them and all do 1000/300 and use a shroud like XFX's on them. Unlike cheap and nasty XFX, sapphire released Trixx, An overclocking utility. I've had an XFX 5870 die on me cause of the cheap fans they use.

I agree now there hard to find, But OCUK have been pumping them out like theres no tomorrow haha. Your loss Smiley
My loss? I'm not talking about three months ago mate, I bought those 5850 extremes from OCUK back then too - got 4 of them and they're running very well (not getting 1000/300 though - 975/300 seems to be my limit, but I don't tweak voltages).

I think I paid £120. Then they went up, then I started looking at 6950s, then they were gone. There seems a steady supply of 5830s though, at videocardshop.co.uk - but the quality of the cards seems somewhat suspect. Time will tell - I've had two cards from videocardshop fail on me (one XFX 5850 Black Edition - which was crap and couldn't overclock a damn - and one of the Peak Value 5830s).

I'm keeping an eye on OCUK for Asus DirectCU II 6950s now - they're awesome, well built, solid metal, unlockable shaders, and have the all-important overdrive upper limit raised so an easy 430 MH/sec is possible without serious BIOS tweakage.

The 5830s are still nice though since you can run four of them off a cheap 800W supply without stretching it. PSUs get expensive over 1000W and that's what you need for four 6950s when overclocked Sad

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October 19, 2011, 10:03:50 AM
 #26

They just ran out at OCUK of sapphire 5850's, which they sold from £100 inc VAT about 3 month ago to £160 inc VAT 2 months ago. I got loads of them and all do 1000/300 and use a shroud like XFX's on them. Unlike cheap and nasty XFX, sapphire released Trixx, An overclocking utility. I've had an XFX 5870 die on me cause of the cheap fans they use.

I agree now there hard to find, But OCUK have been pumping them out like theres no tomorrow haha. Your loss Smiley
My loss? I'm not talking about three months ago mate, I bought those 5850 extremes from OCUK back then too - got 4 of them and they're running very well (not getting 1000/300 though - 975/300 seems to be my limit, but I don't tweak voltages).

I think I paid £120. Then they went up, then I started looking at 6950s, then they were gone. There seems a steady supply of 5830s though, at videocardshop.co.uk - but the quality of the cards seems somewhat suspect. Time will tell - I've had two cards from videocardshop fail on me (one XFX 5850 Black Edition - which was crap and couldn't overclock a damn - and one of the Peak Value 5830s).

I'm keeping an eye on OCUK for Asus DirectCU II 6950s now - they're awesome, well built, solid metal, unlockable shaders, and have the all-important overdrive upper limit raised so an easy 430 MH/sec is possible without serious BIOS tweakage.

The 5830s are still nice though since you can run four of them off a cheap 800W supply without stretching it. PSUs get expensive over 1000W and that's what you need for four 6950s when overclocked Sad

sorry, sometimes i come across blunt as hell haha Smiley

i got 1200W Antec PSU's now, there not cheap but you get better amps from them. 5850's are pulling 115 amps which my PSU's only do 98. Im hoping the new 7 series will help with this issue too. £200+ everytime isnt cheap at all for power Sad 2x 750/800's work and are cheaper but i like just having the 1 PSU per system of 4 cards. And its neater Smiley Corsair AX series are by far the best PSU on the market bar non. There single rail units and go upto 1200W which is an acheivement in itself, but still, 100amp max on the 12V rail.

My 5850's are set to 965/300 @ 1.93V all day/everyday now as temps are always below 75-80 and its ROCK SOLID! 6+ weeks and counting. Server performance dare i say Smiley Don't know if you remember but i was the one with the 1015/300 @ stock card and believe i was one of the first notice the 2 different revisions of the xtreme cards Smiley There still strong for me and the XFX's are dead! Cheap fans killed them. Getting replaced but im worried there going be replaced with XFX 6970's, which are going to be just as poor hardware, if not worse. XFX suck rotten eggs. Gigabyte mobo's too, Avoid like the plague as alot dont allow more than 3-4 cards to be put in. Had this issue with 3 of gigabytes boards. MSI all the way now. After 3-4 months i learnt alot about companies and there shortcuts Smiley
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