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Author Topic: Anarcho-Capitalism and Anarcho-Socialism  (Read 8468 times)
MoonShadow
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March 31, 2011, 04:02:27 PM
 #61

No they don't.  At least not without the aid of a state, and they do still exist in the absence of state support.

Just look at the drug cartels in Mexico.  Do they need state support for an employee structure?  Do they need state support for financing?
Ah, but the Mexican cartels are states. People don't normally use that word for them because it gets confusing, but it's true. Businesses pay taxes to the cartels in exchange for protection. In a lot of cases, one can't even do business without permission from a cartel, similar to registering a business with an official state. Perhaps it’s better to think of government as organized crime, an entirely capitalistic organization.


A cartel isn't a state as normally would be defined, as they tend not to have geographical bounderies.  A drug cartel could be considered a phyle.

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I never said anything about tolerating them.  I said that they exist.  Just because you (or I) might not agree that human societies should function this way, it's an objective fact that they are and arrived this way in a straight forward (and probably entirely natural) way.
If you believe that then must also believe that government is inevitable.

Inevitable is a good word for it.  Not desirable, nor irresistable; but certainly inevitable.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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FatherMcGruder
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March 31, 2011, 06:45:31 PM
 #62

A cartel isn't a state as normally would be defined, as they tend not to have geographical bounderies.
Sure they do. It's called turf.

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A drug cartel could be considered a phyle.
Phylum?

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Inevitable is a good word for it.  Not desirable, nor irresistable; but certainly inevitable.
That's a different discussion though.

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MoonShadow
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March 31, 2011, 10:24:43 PM
 #63

A cartel isn't a state as normally would be defined, as they tend not to have geographical bounderies.
Sure they do. It's called turf.

If there were no other greater state that also had claim to the same 'turf', then I would agree, but a cartel is not a state so long as it remains in contention for that same 'turf'.

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A drug cartel could be considered a phyle.
Phylum?

No, a phyle.  Like a tribe, but more politically structured....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyle
"Phyle (Greek φυλή phulē, "clan, race, people", derived from ancient Greek φύεσθαι "to descend, to originate") is an ancient Greek term for clan or tribe. They were usually ruled by a basileus. Some of them can be classified by their geographic location"

In the modern sense, they are used to describe a type of mostly voluntary city-states from the fiction of Neal Stephenson's The Diamond Age...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Diamond_Age#Phyles

"The world is divided into many phyles, also known as tribes, distinguishable by either ethnic, religious, political or other emerging cultural markers....
Most societies depicted in the novel have become globalized, and maintain enclaves throughout the world....
The phyles coexist much like historical nation-states under a system of justice and mutual protection, the Common Economic Protocol."
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Inevitable is a good word for it.  Not desirable, nor irresistable; but certainly inevitable.
That's a different discussion though.

Not for me.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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April 03, 2011, 03:07:13 AM
 #64

If there were no other greater state that also had claim to the same 'turf', then I would agree, but a cartel is not a state so long as it remains in contention for that same 'turf'.
An official state can claim that it owns the land that a cartel controls, but that doesn't matter to the people living there. If the cartel is in charge, it's the state.

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No, a phyle.  Like a tribe, but more politically structured....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyle
"Phyle (Greek φυλή phulē, "clan, race, people", derived from ancient Greek φύεσθαι "to descend, to originate") is an ancient Greek term for clan or tribe. They were usually ruled by a basileus. Some of them can be classified by their geographic location"

In the modern sense, they are used to describe a type of mostly voluntary city-states from the fiction of Neal Stephenson's The Diamond Age...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Diamond_Age#Phyles

"The world is divided into many phyles, also known as tribes, distinguishable by either ethnic, religious, political or other emerging cultural markers....
Most societies depicted in the novel have become globalized, and maintain enclaves throughout the world....
The phyles coexist much like historical nation-states under a system of justice and mutual protection, the Common Economic Protocol."
Interesting. To the extent that a given phyle is authoritarian though, it isn't anarchistic.

Use my Trade Hill referral code: TH-R11519

Check out bitcoinity.org and Ripple.

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MoonShadow
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April 03, 2011, 09:12:05 PM
 #65


Interesting. To the extent that a given phyle is authoritarian though, it isn't anarchistic.

I didn't claim that it was.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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April 03, 2011, 09:26:05 PM
 #66

In the end, would anarchism increase individual happiness?
kiba
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April 03, 2011, 09:35:41 PM
 #67

In the end, would anarchism increase individual happiness?

I don't give a damn about happiness. Happiness is just an emotional state.

If I want happiness, I would just do drugs.

Anonymous
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April 03, 2011, 11:52:23 PM
 #68

In the end, would anarchism increase individual happiness?

I don't give a damn about happiness. Happiness is just an emotional state.

If I want happiness, I would just do drugs.
Happiness through drugs wouldn't be sustainable in the long-term.

In the end, our individual perception is an emotional state. Happiness is an emotional state but a rather integral one. A being must be motivated to live in order to sustain itself. Sure, happiness and its means could be considered subjective but a true definition can be given. It's whatever keeps a being willing to live whether it be having achieved happiness or through its pursuit.

Under an ordinary human condition, happiness should be its long-term purpose. The means to such an end is up to anybody's whim.
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