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Author Topic: At what point does Bitcoin become protestable?  (Read 5954 times)
Blitz­
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October 17, 2011, 01:27:52 AM
 #21

If it does become widely adopted, should all the work done up until this point be dismissed as useless? Were it not for this work, would it ever become adopted in the first place?
Donating some CPU cycles to a project before the world knows about it is not work. Difficulty was 1 for a whole year: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-ever.png

People do the same for free for folding@home etc. It’s certainly not work that ought to be rewarded with 1% to 0.1% of the money supply.

The truth is that the Bitcoin generation curve does not model a natural resource in that we started out with "Peak Bitcoin" rate in 2009. Now guess the relation of how many people there were in 2009 and how many people there are now - that’s the ROI. Normally, the extraction of ressources models a sigmoid curve where the Peak production is approached as the extraction becomes more efficient.

In Gold, an equivalent to Satoshi et al. would have been the first gold miner who doesn’t even own a pickaxe, but just finds and carries 1% of the Gold supply home with his own hands. Laughable.

Donating some CPU cycles to a project is also, at least for most people in the first world, not risk.

I have mentioned this many times, and the generation curve enhances the disparity by the quickness of "Internet Speed" and the fact that the pool of users was very small to begin with.

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
"these people don't seem to want to stop till Bitcoin is completely destroyed and left like an old cum rag in the corner of the room." - ShroomsKit
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Ragnar
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October 17, 2011, 01:33:06 AM
 #22

If it does become widely adopted, should all the work done up until this point be dismissed as useless? Were it not for this work, would it ever become adopted in the first place?
It’s certainly not work that ought to be rewarded with 1% to 0.1% of the money supply.
Is this a fact or an opinion?

"Dare to liberate your mind, from all things, old and new."
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October 17, 2011, 01:48:11 AM
 #23

If it does become widely adopted, should all the work done up until this point be dismissed as useless? Were it not for this work, would it ever become adopted in the first place?
It’s certainly not work that ought to be rewarded with 1% to 0.1% of the money supply.
Is this a fact or an opinion?
Opinion of course. You may, like many people, hail the people who got in with a mere CPU in 2010 as the great early adopters who took the incredible risk of volatile exchange rates, exchange hacks, MyBitcoin, b-OH WAIT. That’s right, it’s the latecomers (May+) who took the true risk and got nothing in this system!

Another difference between Gold and Bitcoin I forgot to mention:

When the Gold Rush happened, the people who made the real money were not the first miners, but the merchants who supplied goods and enabled commerce. In Bitcoin, it is apparent that whoever now steps up and supplies goods/services will never be able to catch up with people like Satoshi or knightmb, or less extreme, someone who mined 30k BTC.

It is also worth thinking about "marginal utility of BTC incentive" vs. "disincentive for latecomers" due to how the system is made up. There probably is some sweet point in between where the transition becomes most fluent and non-problematic, but I believe that Bitcoin has had such overkill incentive that it degenerated into a pyramid-scheme like thing. For the sentiment this has caused, check https://www.quora.com/Bitcoin/Is-the-cryptocurrency-Bitcoin-a-good-idea

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
"these people don't seem to want to stop till Bitcoin is completely destroyed and left like an old cum rag in the corner of the room." - ShroomsKit
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October 17, 2011, 01:55:44 AM
 #24

Wealth has never been about risk or what somebody "deserves". It's what people are willing to throw money at. If people happen to value your Bitcoins at $10,000 a piece a few years from now just from you mining, who's to say this should come into question? What evil are you imposing by earning wealth, even if you didn't do all that much?


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October 17, 2011, 02:00:11 AM
 #25

I think Satoshi picked a fine incentive to encourage early adopters. However, the early adopters didn't manage to translate the excitement outside of the crypto-anarchist libertarian community.

If there were 5 million daily bitcoin users today with a geometrically increasing goods transaction rate, then the incentive he chose would have seemed brilliant. It looked like that might be the case earlier in the summer. However, it now appears the early adopters have failed at their promotional duties. If this remains the case, they are really only failing themselves.

However, I still don't see why the masses will come around once the early adopters have even more advantage. Everyone seems to be hoping it gets easer to push boulder up a steeper hill.
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October 17, 2011, 02:15:42 AM
 #26

"Ragnar Redbeard", btw, is an obvious SA troll, please ignore him. Though he does accurately parody many libertarians in here. I almost took him seriously.

I just think Satoshi fucked up the first part of the curve. The very first adopters are those who are interested in the tech etc., the ones who build the system and gather knowledge. They don’t need financial incentive, and certainly not one that equals Peak Bitcoin Rate/number of earliest adopters. I think this created a disparity that only strengthened the perception of a "pyramid scheme".

My first reaction to Bitcoin was that I thought it’s really cool – this NEW p2p digital currency was a novel idea. Then I found out that such a large portion of it was already distributed, and coupled with the extreme disparity where 6 months make such a huge difference and the runup to 1.1$, I almost turned away from it.

The early adopters aren’t important, they come anyway because they are genuinely interested. What’s important is reaching the EARLY MAJORITY, crossing the chasm. We almost managed to do that, but it is apparent now that we have failed.

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
"these people don't seem to want to stop till Bitcoin is completely destroyed and left like an old cum rag in the corner of the room." - ShroomsKit
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October 17, 2011, 02:35:31 AM
 #27

"Ragnar Redbeard", btw, is an obvious SA troll, please ignore him. Though he does accurately parody many libertarians in here. I almost took him seriously.

First I was compared to a child. Now something about trolling?

Anyways, to address the argument, I have yet to see an issue with users having a large portion of the credits. Bitcoins went up to 7 or 8 decimal points, if I recall correctly. There is more than enough supply to go around. I can't see any constraints when it comes to getting more users.

Also, isn't this project only two years old? It's a bit early to be saying this project has failed. I just discovered Bitcoin two weeks ago.

"Dare to liberate your mind, from all things, old and new."
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October 17, 2011, 02:52:15 AM
 #28

My first reaction to Bitcoin was that I thought it’s really cool – this NEW p2p digital currency was a novel idea. Then I found out that such a large portion of it was already distributed, and coupled with the extreme disparity where 6 months make such a huge difference and the runup to 1.1$, I almost turned away from it.

I suggested the same thing 18 months or so ago. I was soundly shouted down by the existing folks who thought it was the greatest idea ever. Very Austrian. I turned away because the consequences seemed obvious. I should have bought up a few and held until the boom though. I always see the future too soon! Smiley

I do, however, still want an anonymous digital cash to be used over the internet and elsewhere. I'm even OK with the quasi-anonymous nature of nakamoto chained transactions. I'm actually in favor of the FBI catching major criminals. I just want a currency that is not broadly and needlessly profiled.

The early adopters aren’t important, they come anyway because they are genuinely interested. What’s important is reaching the EARLY MAJORITY, crossing the chasm. We almost managed to do that, but it is apparent now that we have failed.

Yes this seems to have failed. The major problem was, merchants and goods purchasers should have been the focus of the currency. However, many were turned off by the excessive philosophizing.

Also, isn't this project only two years old? It's a bit early to be saying this project has failed. I just discovered Bitcoin two weeks ago.

In all honesty, litecoin is probably the fairer bet for you. If you started today with it, you would be an early adopter. With bitcoin, you are way behind the curve.
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October 17, 2011, 02:56:55 AM
 #29

Why does it matter if I am early? I am looking at LiteCoin and it seems like a complete copy of Bitcoin with little differences. Isn't a more popular crypto-currency more secure anyways?

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October 17, 2011, 03:22:27 AM
 #30

Why does it matter if I am early? I am looking at LiteCoin and it seems like a complete copy of Bitcoin with little differences. Isn't a more popular crypto-currency more secure anyways?

http://blockchain.info/

Bitcoins cost roughly $3.41 in electricity to mine. They sell for $3.67. That is a 26 cent profit if you mine and sell today. But in general the prices have been falling. If you don't sell immediately, you risk losing any profit.

With Bitcoin, you are competing against the owners of 7,479,400 BTC. Most of these owners bought there BTC for pennies a BTC. Say for example, knightmb who bought 371,000 BTC for $5,000. That is (1.35 cents/BTC) if you are keeping score. So basically, the early adopters are still making piles of money selling their hoards. There is no solid bottom to BTC prices at the moment.

If you mint and sell immediately, you are not really doing much to support bitcoin as a growing economy. If you buy with cash you are basically enabling the speculators and early adopters to sell off their hoards at a profit. (Good for them!) If you hold these coins you will likely lose value (at least for a while). In that case you would be better to hold off your purchase until BTC bottoms. If you spend these coins immediately on goods, you are building the economy. (Go Bitcoin!) Convince enough people to do this and the early adopters will cease selling there coins because their wealth is increasing and hoarding is preferable again. BTC prices will spike and you still won't have any.

---

Litecoin is the same as bitcoin in everyway, except it is designed for CPU mining so you aren't competing with the big boys. You are also not selling against giant hoards. It is like a "do over" for bitcoin. Might as well test all your theories at your lowest cost, and highest potential profit.
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October 17, 2011, 08:30:03 AM
 #31

Litecoin is the same as bitcoin in everyway, except it is designed for CPU mining
Please don't contribute to that fallacy: Litecoin isn't designed for CPU mining, it is designed to be unfavorable for current GPU architectures, that's all.

Should it get popular, a suitable FPGA design will be developed and the FPGA miners will compete with the botnets for 99.9% of the coins. The mining disparity will therefore be even worse than with Bitcoin today.
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October 17, 2011, 08:50:22 AM
 #32


If you mint and sell immediately, you are not really doing much to support bitcoin as a growing economy. If you buy with cash you are basically enabling the speculators and early adopters to sell off their hoards at a profit. (Good for them!) If you hold these coins you will likely lose value (at least for a while). In that case you would be better to hold off your purchase until BTC bottoms. If you spend these coins immediately on goods, you are building the economy. (Go Bitcoin!) Convince enough people to do this and the early adopters will cease selling there coins because their wealth is increasing and hoarding is preferable again. BTC prices will spike and you still won't have any.

Spot on.

I'd gladly join a system better than the current(fiat) one. I don't think Bitcoin is that system, although the idea intrigues me.  In a few iterations perhaps BitcoinX could be a fair system that doesn't have the same economic flaws as the current(fiat) one does.

Ponzi me: http://fxnet.bitlex.org/?ref=588
Thanks to the anonymous person who doubled my BTC wealth by sending 0.02 BTC to: 1BSGbFq4G8r3uckpdeQMhP55ScCJwbvNnG
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October 17, 2011, 02:57:17 PM
 #33

In principal I see nothing wrong with early adopters and them holding more coins than others.  Most everyone that would have had interest in mining had an equal chance to do as they did.  I found out about it MUCH too late to make any appreciable profits but I don't at all begrudge others that did.

However I agree that the system doesn't have to be "wrong" for it to fail due to poor perception from jealous new adopters.  I don't think a new bitcoin that panders to insecure people will ever be the answer though.
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October 17, 2011, 03:04:25 PM
 #34

Because to potential new adopters, after that point Bitcoin is going to look like a new a 21,000,000 coin currency with a 10,500,000 coin pre-generation that went to the creator and his "friends".

If it does become widely adopted, should all the work done up until this point be dismissed as useless? Were it not for this work, would it ever become adopted in the first place?


You're saying that the bitcoin early adopter should be paid. OK, maybe right, but don't you think you're planning pay yourself toooooooOOOoOOooooooo much?HuhHuh


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October 17, 2011, 03:27:02 PM
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You're saying that the bitcoin early adopter should be paid. OK, maybe right, but don't you think you're planning pay yourself toooooooOOOoOOooooooo much?HuhHuh

No, I am saying they necessarily deserve every Bitcoin they have mined or traded for.

How do you propose that "too much" or "too little" is determined?
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October 17, 2011, 03:49:37 PM
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You're saying that the bitcoin early adopter should be paid. OK, maybe right, but don't you think you're planning pay yourself toooooooOOOoOOooooooo much?HuhHuh

No, I am saying they necessarily deserve every Bitcoin they have mined or traded for.

How do you propose that "too much" or "too little" is determined?

the units of bitcoin mutiplied by the exhchange rate roughly described how much the early adopters are paid, if we don't consider the shock the early hoarders bring to the market. maybe it's not the early adopters' fault to have such a big fortune, but you have to be honest enough as Warren Buffett admit that they billionaires don't deserve to paid sooooooooooo much. and Red's OP have told everyone enough, that if

1) you just put your 5000 USD investment of bitcoin away,
2) bitcoin were somehow "widely" adopted

how much you're paid. You have to admit that, you're paid toooooooooooooooooo much.


P.S.  "You" in my post maybe not personally about BitterTea, maybe include myself. 

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October 17, 2011, 04:00:32 PM
 #37

we human being are created from monkey (maybe God works step by step, too), and monkey know about "fairness", too.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0917_030917_monkeyfairness.html


the distribution of bitcoin is not fair.

Those who say that they deserve every coin they mine are not honest enough, if they at the same time consider bitcoin is an alternative currency system to our traditional fiat money system.

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October 17, 2011, 04:32:19 PM
 #38

the units of bitcoin mutiplied by the exhchange rate roughly described how much the early adopters are paid

The early adopters you're talking about are ones that haven't significantly liquidated their bitcoins, so this is by definition incorrect.

maybe it's not the early adopters' fault to have such a big fortune

Fault? This really sounds like pure jealousy.

"maybe it's not Google's founders' (or their early investors') fault to have such a big fortune" - it makes no sense

but you have to be honest enough as Warren Buffett admit that they billionaires don't deserve to paid sooooooooooo much.

That's one man's opinion. One man that can give away 99% of his wealth and still live happily, yet only gives away a tiny portion.

and Red's OP have told everyone enough, that if

1) you just put your 5000 USD investment of bitcoin away,
2) bitcoin were somehow "widely" adopted

how much you're paid. You have to admit that, you're paid toooooooooooooooooo much.

You've still not defined "too much".
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October 17, 2011, 04:33:52 PM
 #39

we human being are created from monkey (maybe God works step by step, too), and monkey know about "fairness", too.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0917_030917_monkeyfairness.html


the distribution of bitcoin is not fair.

Those who say that they deserve every coin they mine are not honest enough, if they at the same time consider bitcoin is an alternative currency system to our traditional fiat money system.

Tell you what. When you give away everything you don't need to absolutely sustain your life to those who have 1/100th of your wealth throughout the rest of the world, then we can talk about "fairness" without hypocrisy.
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October 17, 2011, 05:02:55 PM
 #40

we human being are created from monkey (maybe God works step by step, too), and monkey know about "fairness", too.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0917_030917_monkeyfairness.html


the distribution of bitcoin is not fair.

Those who say that they deserve every coin they mine are not honest enough, if they at the same time consider bitcoin is an alternative currency system to our traditional fiat money system.

I don't remember when primates became the objective standard of economic equality. As a strong advocate of evolution, I also know that we came from an ancestor to primates and not directly from them.

Anyways, fairness is arbitrary. The fact is people who hold Bitcoins aren't hurting anybody.

"Dare to liberate your mind, from all things, old and new."
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