If MtGox can ident the Bitcoins, why not fix it?

[Keyser Soze]

Theft of Bitcoins the result of which I have fewer Bitcoins, deprives me of my capacity to spend those Bitcoins.  What kind of fungibility is that?

But this smacks of a pissing contest without benefit.

Those bitcoins that you sent to MtGox can be sent anywhere, no matter who currently owns them. Sounds fungible to me.

I know you are probably upset about losing coins to MtGox, but keep in mind that bitcoin is not at fault. You exchanged your real bitcoins for an IOU from MtGox. MtGox now cannot honor that IOU.

[1715338225]

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[1715338225]

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[1715338225]

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[frito]

hes got Some ballz...

[Squeaker]

Theft of Bitcoins the result of which I have fewer Bitcoins, deprives me of my capacity to spend those Bitcoins.  What kind of fungibility is that?

But this smacks of a pissing contest without benefit.

Alright... look... I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt right now, and just honestly try to help you...

So...

Gimme your list of hashes for the pieces of bitcoin that was in your account that MtGox lost, and I'll see what I can find.

=squeak=

[soy]

hes got Some ballz...

Playing chess you'd want your opponent sitting on one of those while yourself on something stable.  Ergonomic tho those may be, it would effect your balance and sidetrack neurotransmitters.  It effected my MtGox btc balance (availability) I think.

[nanonano]

I take $100 out of an ATM in $20 bills.  The ATM has recorded those serial numbers.  I immediately get mugged.  I identify the mugger to the police.  The money is seized.  The twenty dollar bills are identified as those I withdrew from the ATM.  The mugger gets tried, convicted, goes to jail or gets counseling (liberals) and I get my $20 bills back.

But this isn't what you are demanding. The real example would be:

You take 5*$20 from the atm. Get mugged. Mugger exchanges the 5*$20 for a $100 bill at a store. Police catches the thief and tells you that after he gets convicted, you'll hopefully get $100 from him. You refuse this proposal and demand that the police go to the store get the five twenties that belong to you. If the store has given those twenties as change in the mean time, police must according to you find the customers and confiscate the twenties from them.

This is essentially what you are asking**. Does this still seem reasonable to you?


**) except you didn't really have 100$, you had an IOU for 100$ and still demand to get some specific twenties back (I'm not sure which twenties exactly)

[soy]

I take $100 out of an ATM in $20 bills.  The ATM has recorded those serial numbers.  I immediately get mugged.  I identify the mugger to the police.  The money is seized.  The twenty dollar bills are identified as those I withdrew from the ATM.  The mugger gets tried, convicted, goes to jail or gets counseling (liberals) and I get my $20 bills back.

But this isn't what you are demanding. The real example would be:

You take 5*$20 from the atm. Get mugged. Mugger exchanges the 5*$20 for a $100 bill at a store. Police catches the thief and tells you that after he gets convicted, you'll hopefully get $100 from him. You refuse this proposal and demand that the police go to the store get the five twenties that belong to you. If the store has given those twenties as change in the mean time, police must according to you find the customers and confiscate the twenties from them.

This is essentially what you are asking**. Does this still seem reasonable to you?


**) except you didn't really have 100$, you had an IOU for 100$ and still demand to get some specific twenties back (I'm not sure which twenties exactly)

Humm, mugger steals almost half a billion (US billion) dollars in btc.  Not to inconvenience anyone we say Good Luck, don't spend it all in one place, and that's that.  Half a billion dollars in btc isn't something the owner can fix with a Hey mom, bail me out.

[mgburks77]

btc is extremely high risk.

part of the game.

[nanonano]

I take $100 out of an ATM in $20 bills.  The ATM has recorded those serial numbers.  I immediately get mugged.  I identify the mugger to the police.  The money is seized.  The twenty dollar bills are identified as those I withdrew from the ATM.  The mugger gets tried, convicted, goes to jail or gets counseling (liberals) and I get my $20 bills back.

But this isn't what you are demanding. The real example would be:

You take 5*$20 from the atm. Get mugged. Mugger exchanges the 5*$20 for a $100 bill at a store. Police catches the thief and tells you that after he gets convicted, you'll hopefully get $100 from him. You refuse this proposal and demand that the police go to the store get the five twenties that belong to you. If the store has given those twenties as change in the mean time, police must according to you find the customers and confiscate the twenties from them.

This is essentially what you are asking**. Does this still seem reasonable to you?


**) except you didn't really have 100$, you had an IOU for 100$ and still demand to get some specific twenties back (I'm not sure which twenties exactly)

Humm, mugger steals almost half a billion (US billion) dollars in btc.  Not to inconvenience anyone we say Good Luck, don't spend it all in one place, and that's that.  Half a billion dollars in btc isn't something the owner can fix with a Hey mom, bail me out.

I notice you didn't answer whether you thought the demands in the example were reasonable. You just changed the angle... In any case, it's not about "inconveniencing" anyone, it's a basic principle of how _all_ money works.

[Squeaker]

I notice you didn't answer whether you thought the demands in the example were reasonable. You just changed the angle... In any case, it's not about "inconveniencing" anyone, it's a basic principle of how _all_ money works.

He just seems to wanna turn bitcoin into fiat controlled by a central authority... he may have a lot of posts under his belt, but he just doesn't grasp the concept of what bitcoin is fundamentally... if he really put as much money as he claimed, into something he had no understanding about in the first place, thinking he'd just put his monies into it and get back more monies, then this should be a valuable lesson for him to learn.

=squeak=

[mgburks77]

Well, to be fair that kind of loss is devastating and would definitely change anyone's perspective, at least in the heat of the moment.

[soy]

~$428,000,000 dollars.  Makes it the second largest heist in recorded history aside from the value of art looted by Nazis.

http://listverse.com/2009/12/01/10-largest-robberies-in-history/

[bitcoinminer]

~$428,000,000 dollars.  Makes it the second largest heist in recorded history aside from the value of art looted by Nazis.

http://listverse.com/2009/12/01/10-largest-robberies-in-history/

I'm gathering you're excluding Lehman brothers, Madoff, etc?

[soy]

hes got Some ballz...

I hope he's flying coach to NYC for the federal indictment.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I hope he's flying coach to NYC for the federal indictment.

They just bought a three letter domain name (and those tend to go for six figures) with depositor funds.  I guarantee you he isn't going by coach.  It isn't like it is his or the company's money he is spending.

[soy]

I hope he's flying coach to NYC for the federal indictment.

They just bought a three letter domain name (and those tend to go for six figures) with depositor funds.  I guarantee you he isn't going by coach.  It isn't like it is his or the company's money he is spending.

reminds me of a song

the days of wine and roses, laugh and run away, like a child at play...

he should keep in mind he isn't as pretty as Amanda Knox and as a result the federal grand jury might not find favorably.  might make jail less difficult tho.

[soy]

If he knew of ongoing btc disappearances before the holidays then left for a vacation only to return to find the number of missing btc had quickly risen to 770btc in his absence, would that be criminal negligence?

[mgburks77]

If he didn't steal them or otherwise do something illegal then for him it wouldn't be criminal anything. Breach of fiduciary duty, certainly. But that's a civil liability.

[soy]

The Iraq treasury heist by Saddam's son amounted to 1 billion but 2/3rds was recovered.   The dollar value of the missing MtGox btc is greater than what's outstanding from that treasury heist and more than the next largest heist in recorded history.

Not a crime?  It will be difficult to convince many of that.   And if he is found not guilty of any criminal wrongdoing, some will say the New York banks pulled strings to have that verdict so as to undermine confidence in Bitcoin.

[mgburks77]

The Iraq treasury heist by Saddam's son amounted to 1 billion but 2/3rds was recovered.   The dollar value of the missing MtGox btc is greater than what's outstanding from that treasury heist and more than the next largest heist in recorded history.

Not a crime?  It will be difficult to convince many of that.   And if he is found not guilty of any criminal wrongdoing, some will say the New York banks pulled strings to have that verdict so as to undermine confidence in Bitcoin.

I didn't say a crime wasn't committed. I clearly said a guy going on vacation while the crime was committed is not a crime in itself. It's a breach of fiduciary duty if he knew about it and went any way, if you understand what that means you will realize it is a civil liability and not a criminal liability.

If the guy is working with the thieves in some capacity that is another story. Do you have evidence of this?

[Squeaker]

If he knew of ongoing btc disappearances before the holidays then left for a vacation only to return to find the number of missing btc had quickly risen to 770btc in his absence, would that be criminal negligence?

No, it wouldn't be... but, if noting the discrepancy on the ledger that didn't add up, he did nothing to plug the hole for almost 1000 days until the discrepancy had risen to around 770,000btc while he was actually around, THAT would be criminal negligence.

=squeak=