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October 17, 2011, 06:28:16 PM
 #21

Just a reminder that the price of bitcoin is irrelevant if you are using them instead of hoarding them.

On the contrary: the cheaper they are, and more happy should hoarders be, since they get more bangs for their bucks.

Even if I already lost my shirt on BTC, I think I would buy some more when I will see some relatively stable bottom, or when they will be sold for peanuts.

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You are WRONG!


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October 17, 2011, 06:30:37 PM
 #22

Just a reminder that the price of bitcoin is irrelevant if you are using them instead of hoarding them.
..., or when they will be sold for peanuts.

why the hell would people sell peanuts?  they are crazy, they taste great! i would not buy anything for peanuts!

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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October 17, 2011, 06:34:33 PM
 #23

Just a reminder that the price of A STABLE bitcoin is irrelevant if you are using them instead of hoarding them.

Fixed that for you.

Thank you, I was about to tirade. It's obvious that if your store of value deflates (or inflates) wildly, it matters enormously. The mentality that it doesn't is an indication of the true ignorance many hold surrounding bitcoins, currency, and value in general. I pray for your families if you can't grasp the basics of this. God help your retirements.

Please give me your money, because I am a shameless libertarian elite who deserves your money more than you do: 9Hkao8U82WWDp6SQGn4k7ad9gT1LWeL5s3
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October 17, 2011, 06:37:06 PM
 #24

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=12156.0


I just love this post, Are you elite now, lol.

Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
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October 17, 2011, 07:13:33 PM
 #25

I just mean if you keep some USD at your exchange and you want to buy something with BTC.  Just buy your coins and then send them. It is not elegant and you may loose a tiny bit. But you may also realize a discount if the price goes up a bit. 

The gospel according to Satoshi - https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

Free bitcoin=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1610684
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October 17, 2011, 07:50:46 PM
 #26

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=12156.0

I just love this post, Are you elite now, lol.
Oh, that's so funny!

I think it's clear that Bitcoin has a few niche uses, though broad acceptance seems unlikely because non-reversibility is so unforgiving.  It reminds me of Unix, which will let you execute rm -rf from the root directory.  Not too many people want that power, and the responsibility that comes with it.  No matter how simple you make bitcoin, the premise of non-reversibility will always be there, and I don't see too many people using the command line these days.

I salute all of you that are still reading the forums, whether you're holding bitcoins or not.  Anyone sticking around during the trough of disillusionment has internal strength of character, and doesn't stick their head in the sand when something goes wrong.  I'm looking forward to being on this ride for several years, and the best thing is, no one knows where it's going!
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October 17, 2011, 07:54:44 PM
 #27

Quote from: old_engineer

I think it's clear that Bitcoin has a few niche uses, though broad acceptance seems unlikely because non-reversibility is so unforgiving.  

Do you really think this is the big hangup? I think you're implying a bit more. It's the non-reversibility in conjunction with wild west non-regulation and internet anonymity. Cash is just as non-reversible, but we have regulation (in the US) to protect transactions regardless of the medium used.

Edit: actually, I think I'm just splitting hairs. It's the combination of what I'm saying above that makes BTC so non-reversible, yeah?

Please give me your money, because I am a shameless libertarian elite who deserves your money more than you do: 9Hkao8U82WWDp6SQGn4k7ad9gT1LWeL5s3
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October 17, 2011, 08:00:44 PM
 #28

But theres nothing of note to use them on besides drugs, and a smattering of overpriced goods.

Interesting choice of words. What price do you mean? I guess you are doing the conversion back to a fiat currency. Interesting. Old habits never die. So, go buy some drugs already, then you won't be worrying about the fiat value of a Btc.

And wobber, if you are referring to the lowest Bitcoin 'price' ever it was and still possibly could be ZERO. Not that I think it will be, but that's just maths.

Ladies ladies, one at a time.
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October 17, 2011, 10:58:19 PM
 #29

Quote from: old_engineer

I think it's clear that Bitcoin has a few niche uses, though broad acceptance seems unlikely because non-reversibility is so unforgiving.  

Do you really think this is the big hangup? I think you're implying a bit more. It's the non-reversibility in conjunction with wild west non-regulation and internet anonymity. Cash is just as non-reversible, but we have regulation (in the US) to protect transactions regardless of the medium used.

Edit: actually, I think I'm just splitting hairs. It's the combination of what I'm saying above that makes BTC so non-reversible, yeah?
Actually, I was referring to bitcoin itself, not the exchanges, nor the usage of an anonymity network like Tor in conjunction with running bitcoin.

While there is precedence for a global "undo" when a bug was found and 2 billion coins minted, there's no one that has the power to undo any specific transaction.  It's like running a bank without a backup of the main ledger, and no possibility of ever having a backup.  While you'll never lose a copy of the blockchain, there's no backup in the sense that an old copy can't be restored if you find an erroneous transaction, whether it be a mistake, theft, or whatnot.  Non-reversibility is both a feature and a bug, and for most transactions, this "bug" isn't worth the risk.  Sure, you can build other things on top of bitcoin that provide this feature, but then you're no longer talking about bitcoin.

Most people want reversibility in their transactions, whether it be credit card chargebacks, returning spoilt milk, or nabbing the pickpocket and getting your money back.  Perhaps more instructive is to examine one user group that loves non-reversibility and other features of bitcoin: the black market. 

Though the possible anonymity (technically pseudonymity) aspect tends to be highlighted, non-reversibility is also a prerequisite when buying prohibited items (ie Silk Road).  Someone could require ransom in bitcoins, and then they know that the bills won't be marked, everyone can see if ransom has been paid, and no risky meeting place has to be arranged. Bitcoins are also perfect for unregulated money transfers between countries, and since there's sometimes no legal way to reverse a transaction between countries. Bitcoins for country-to-country money transfer is basically like a Hawala network, which is the primary money remittance system used in many parts of the world (and is, of course, illegal in the USA):
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/terrorist-illicit-finance/Documents/FinCEN-Hawala-rpt.pdf

There's a reason that Nigerian spammer/scammers are in Nigeria: there's no way to undo a transaction, or prosecute the scammer.

From most people's point of view, bitcoins "features" don't represent progress, though they are clearly useful in limited cases.  Then again, is the world better off with nuclear weapons and nuclear power?  Perhaps not.  I even think that the advent of agriculture was not necessarily good for humans, forcing us out of a hunter-gatherer lifestyle and into a sedentary farming lifestyle that we aren't well suited for.  But bitcoin is here to stay: it's up to us to figure out what the hell to do with this new and disruptive technology, and hopefully we'll find productive uses over the coming years.
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October 17, 2011, 11:02:05 PM
 #30

Quote from: old_engineer

I think it's clear that Bitcoin has a few niche uses, though broad acceptance seems unlikely because non-reversibility is so unforgiving.  

Do you really think this is the big hangup? I think you're implying a bit more. It's the non-reversibility in conjunction with wild west non-regulation and internet anonymity. Cash is just as non-reversible, but we have regulation (in the US) to protect transactions regardless of the medium used.

Edit: actually, I think I'm just splitting hairs. It's the combination of what I'm saying above that makes BTC so non-reversible, yeah?
Actually, I was referring to bitcoin itself, not the exchanges, nor the usage of an anonymity network like Tor in conjunction with running bitcoin.

While there is precedence for a global "undo" when a bug was found and 2 billion coins minted, there's no one that has the power to undo any specific transaction.  It's like running a bank without a backup of the main ledger, and no possibility of ever having a backup.  While you'll never lose a copy of the blockchain, there's no backup in the sense that an old copy can't be restored if you find an erroneous transaction, whether it be a mistake, theft, or whatnot.  Non-reversibility is both a feature and a bug, and for most transactions, this "bug" isn't worth the risk.  Sure, you can build other things on top of bitcoin that provide this feature, but then you're no longer talking about bitcoin.

Most people want reversibility in their transactions, whether it be credit card chargebacks, returning spoilt milk, or nabbing the pickpocket and getting your money back.  Perhaps more instructive is to examine one user group that loves non-reversibility and other features of bitcoin: the black market. 

Though the possible anonymity (technically pseudonymity) aspect tends to be highlighted, non-reversibility is also a prerequisite when buying prohibited items (ie Silk Road).  Someone could require ransom in bitcoins, and then they know that the bills won't be marked, everyone can see if ransom has been paid, and no risky meeting place has to be arranged. Bitcoins are also perfect for unregulated money transfers between countries, and since there's sometimes no legal way to reverse a transaction between countries. Bitcoins for country-to-country money transfer is basically like a Hawala network, which is the primary money remittance system used in many parts of the world (and is, of course, illegal in the USA):
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/terrorist-illicit-finance/Documents/FinCEN-Hawala-rpt.pdf

There's a reason that Nigerian spammer/scammers are in Nigeria: there's no way to undo a transaction, or prosecute the scammer.

From most people's point of view, bitcoins "features" don't represent progress, though they are clearly useful in limited cases.  Then again, is the world better off with nuclear weapons and nuclear power?  Perhaps not.  I even think that the advent of agriculture was not necessarily good for humans, forcing us out of a hunter-gatherer lifestyle and into a sedentary farming lifestyle that we aren't well suited for.  But bitcoin is here to stay: it's up to us to figure out what the hell to do with this new and disruptive technology, and hopefully we'll find productive uses over the coming years.

Minus the bit about the coming years, this is interesting. Thanks.

Please give me your money, because I am a shameless libertarian elite who deserves your money more than you do: 9Hkao8U82WWDp6SQGn4k7ad9gT1LWeL5s3
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October 17, 2011, 11:38:22 PM
 #31

But bitcoin is here to stay: it's up to us to figure out what the hell to do with this new and disruptive technology, and hopefully we'll find productive uses over the coming years.

Minus the bit about the coming years, this is interesting. Thanks.

What, you planning on dying?  Or predicting the end times ala Harold Camping? Smiley

Bitcoin isn't going anywhere, and everyone that says bitcoin will exist so long as there is a miner, a sender, and a receiver, is actually overstating the case: the ideas behind bitcoin will exist even without one of them.  In this era of ubiquitous cell phones, there's still an active ham radio community that spends thousands buying new equipment from companies that specialize in selling ham gear, rather than $20 cell phones.

As far as interesting reading, you might also like "Shelling Out' by Nick Szabo, which is about why humans like to collect seemingly worthless things, and why it is an adaptive trait:  http://szabo.best.vwh.net/shell.html
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October 18, 2011, 12:31:55 AM
 #32

I was actually also speaking explicitly about Bitcoin beyond the exchanges. In fact, I was referring to Bitcoin the way all of you do: as a useful currency.  If you haven't noticed, I'm consistently trying to dig at this pervasive, irrational need for bitcointalk members to make up every excuse in the book to support "bitcoin will live forever"-type thinking. Nothing guarantees your conception of tradeable hashes on any useful scale will conitue.

Case in point: Small shells still exist, as do Roman coins, but you can't pay your taxes with them (NO, IT'S NOT A PREREQUISITE, JUST AN INDICATOR).

One miner (painter), one sender (me), and one receiver (you) may be all I need to exchange my sexy Mario Lopez portrait for a pound of your tasty meat, but it sure as hell isn't a currency.

Please give me your money, because I am a shameless libertarian elite who deserves your money more than you do: 9Hkao8U82WWDp6SQGn4k7ad9gT1LWeL5s3
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October 18, 2011, 12:41:00 AM
 #33

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=12156.0


I just love this post, Are you elite now, lol.

LOL

I almost forgot how insane June was. Man, that crash was SO necessary.

And you know what... the fraction of intelligent posts on this forum has really gone back up. It's cool how the majority of sane posts in that old thread were speedy chan-style image meme responses. The forum was in anti-idiot defensive mode.

But it isn't anymore. Sure, still some insanity around, but it's still decreasing. The fog is lifting. Give it another month or two, let the crash finish if it hasn't already, and we might see an entirely new situation. More infrastructure, a first step of allocating BTC to sane speculators done, and we have more users and publicity than before the bubble.

So, all in all, I think a great thing happened indeed; not just today, but in the whole bubble chaos, including hacks and trolls and media hype and fraudsters. The system hardens from every experience. Unless people run away because of the past, we're in the process of setting up a more usable foundation for a Bitcoin economy.
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