Action against Merit Abusers and rethinking merit system to promote good Actors?

[fonship]

Hi All,

I have been watching this merit system closely ever since it launched.

It was launched just a few weeks before I could have been Sn Member, but still I supported it in overall effort to curb spammers and scammers. Here I have supported it. Here I tried to educate people for use power of smerit.

It might have achieved in abuse of membership and might have reduced spammers.

But it also created strong hindrance to growth of good actors in the forum.

First, very less members are educated about what this merit system is and how to effectively use it.

I have seen many thought giving merit will reduce their merit. However that's not the case.

Lack of proper education became counter productive because of that more then 50% of merits dropped is never used till date.

You can see even large number of high ranking users never used their smerits effectively.

On the other side, large accounts which got good amount of smerit, used merits to give to their own parked accounts. I have proofs but i recommend an internal analysis to take collective action.

Also, some smart people evolved methods to earn merits, by using below means:

1. Write more about merits and create merit thread to attract people who are interested in this topic, as they are more keen on giving and getting merits.

2. Create stats around merit and only talk about those to harness same aspect of human psychology highlighted in 1st point.

3. Stick to more active and bigger threads, and only post in that thread to make friends along and keep passing merits to each other.

I would like to call for action against merit abusers.
I would also like to have rethink this whole merit concept and evolve it so that it can become balanced.
Also, smerit airdrop should again happen, eligibility and conditions can be discussed, like burning previous smerit left since months, or dropping more proportion to people who used smerits.
Also, i recommend to identify user who only specifically write about merit topic to get more merits and if found wrong, take actions against them as well.

Always remember, spammers evolve and change their ways to breach whatever rule you make. So evolving system against them is require thing.

By this time many of you have seen and observed how smartly they are playing, i would invite your thoughts and findings in this.

I am ready to post materially to back what i have seen, as and when needed.

Lets have a constructive discussion about making system balance and robust.

Locking this thread, as I feel message is conveyed and already we have many threads which have similar discussions

[1713562213]

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[1713562213]

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[mdayonliner]

I am ready to post materially to back what i have seen, as and when needed.

I would like you to come up with some data, stats, reports to back up your claims. May be this will help us to understand and justify the point you are trying to make.

[DdmrDdmr]

<...>
I would like you to come up with some data, stats, reports to back up your claims. May be this will help us to understand and justify the point you are trying to make.

No, stats and data cannot be used unless you want to fall into the shame of applying human psychology to gain more merits. You will be identified as a user that specifically writes about merit to get more merits, and that is a capital sin. Shame on you @mdayonliner for asking for it, trying to make the OP fall into this trap. And just after ranking-up...

P.d. Please don’t make me retranslate my post to non-ironical verbose.

[fonship]

I am ready to post materially to back what i have seen, as and when needed.

I would like you to come up with some data, stats, reports to back up your claims. May be this will help us to understand and justify the point you are trying to make.

For starter I recommend looking at this same guy who i knew will definately come, but never expected this early.

Look at threads, posts and where we interact most: @DdmrDdmr
Only Merit sections. Talks about only merits. Gives merits on merit threads and gets merits from merit threads

I will post more proof about other problems, but this guy is the perfect example of only writing about merits for most part, if you look whom he gave merits, you will see some other people also who do similar activities.

Look at his August Merits recieved, same you will see in previous months also, maximum from merit threads, he made himself merit guru to get merits:
Received in the last 120 days
August 13, 2018, 11:05:31 PM: 1 from vphasitha01 for Re: [RUPL] Ranking-Up Pipe Line of Forum Members
August 13, 2018, 03:02:45 PM: 1 from iasenko for Re: [RUPL] Ranking-Up Pipe Line of Forum Members
August 13, 2018, 03:00:33 PM: 10 from TMAN for Re: [RUPL] Ranking-Up Pipe Line of Forum Members
August 12, 2018, 10:23:33 AM: 1 from vphasitha01 for Re: Merit & new rank requirements
August 12, 2018, 09:48:24 AM: 1 from Handsome Boy for Bitcointalk Merit Dashboard
August 12, 2018, 09:39:55 AM: 1 from TheQuin for Re: Merit & new rank requirements
August 11, 2018, 08:57:36 PM: 1 from JayJuanGee for Re: Merit & new rank requirements
August 11, 2018, 05:54:12 PM: 1 from iasenko for Re: Merit & new rank requirements
August 10, 2018, 11:54:15 AM: 1 from Virtual miner for Bitcointalk Merit Dashboard
August 09, 2018, 11:26:16 AM: 1 from mjglqw for Re: Activity Low
August 09, 2018, 10:48:53 AM: 1 from finaleshot2016 for Analysis – Posts per month average for Merited members
August 09, 2018, 10:10:42 AM: 1 from Piggy for Analysis – Posts per month average for Merited members
August 09, 2018, 09:06:56 AM: 1 from Coolcryptovator for Analysis – Posts per month average for Merited members
August 09, 2018, 08:34:55 AM: 2 from theyoungmillionaire for Analysis – Posts per month average for Merited members
August 09, 2018, 08:25:07 AM: 2 from vphasitha01 for Analysis – Posts per month average for Merited members
August 09, 2018, 08:15:22 AM: 6 from Foxpup for Analysis – Posts per month average for Merited members
August 09, 2018, 07:48:50 AM: 2 from LoyceV for Analysis – Posts per month average for Merited members
August 07, 2018, 11:08:12 PM: 1 from xtraelv for Re: Corruption and prejudgment of the moderator Xandry
August 07, 2018, 04:50:54 PM: 1 from vit05 for Re: Historical Real-time sMerit Records now available!
August 07, 2018, 02:17:37 PM: 1 from vphasitha01 for sMerit Senders & Receivers – Weight of top 100 and 200 weekly contributors
August 07, 2018, 12:25:09 PM: 1 from Piggy for sMerit Senders & Receivers – Weight of top 100 and 200 weekly contributors
August 07, 2018, 11:10:36 AM: 2 from izanagi narukami for sMerit Senders & Receivers – Weight of top 100 and 200 weekly contributors
August 07, 2018, 11:00:59 AM: 5 from Jet Cash for sMerit Senders & Receivers – Weight of top 100 and 200 weekly contributors
August 07, 2018, 10:58:50 AM: 1 from coinlocket$ for sMerit Senders & Receivers – Weight of top 100 and 200 weekly contributors
August 07, 2018, 10:54:19 AM: 2 from LoyceV for sMerit Senders & Receivers – Weight of top 100 and 200 weekly contributors
August 07, 2018, 10:38:28 AM: 6 from Foxpup for sMerit Senders & Receivers – Weight of top 100 and 200 weekly contributors
August 07, 2018, 09:23:35 AM: 1 from LeGaulois for sMerit Senders & Receivers – Weight of top 100 and 200 weekly contributors
August 07, 2018, 01:08:22 AM: 2 from LoyceV for Bitcointalk Merit Dashboard
August 03, 2018, 06:59:26 PM: 2 from Vod for Re: Limit to new accounts every month

[fonship]

I am ready to post materially to back what i have seen, as and when needed.

I would like you to come up with some data, stats, reports to back up your claims. May be this will help us to understand and justify the point you are trying to make.

One example about how people giving merits to their own parked accounts,  originally posted here, where these so-called merit thread runners ignored which pushed me to start this thread:

======
See how even legendary member handling their parked account:
See this merit record: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;u=368591 , post this link as well bcoz merit record will go after 120 days: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1053293.msg12204754#msg12204754

The guy gave merit is legendary and he gave merit to a 2015 post, straight 10 merit to move up his parked account.

That parked account is also from 2014 only with 50 activities.

Now lets not pretend that merit system works, only good people are suffering.

I only picked one account from above list.

Now what action will be taken against such legendary members?
=========

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Hate to say it, but some of the best discussion happens in the Meta section.  There are other sections like mining and other technical sections, but for the most part those are out of my league.  That's why most of my sMerits have gone to posts in Meta.

I would absolutely love to jump into Bitcoin Discussion and post there, but I know it's a waste of time.  Some of the threads in Economics are really interesting and occasionally I do post there, but that's another section where my post is never going to get read.  I have given out merits in Economics, particularly to Hydrogen for sparking some good basic crypto discussions.

I think a lot of noobs think that by posting supportive statements about the merit system in Meta that they're going to earn merits.  That usually isn't the case, because most of those posts are just one line garbage, usually written in extremely broken English.  Those folks are more likely to end up on a merit source's ignore list than they are to earn any merit.  They're wasting their time doing this, but they don't see it that way.  They're also wiping their filthy paint brush all over one of the best sections on bitcointalk.

On the other side, large accounts which got good amount of smerit, used merits to give to their own parked accounts. I have proofs but i recommend an internal analysis to take collective action.

Can you post what you have?  Also, I'm not sure what you mean by the part that I've bolded.  In any case, there have been many instances of members giving merits to their alt accounts.  I'd be interested to see any proof you have of any high-ranked, trusted members doing so.

Anyway, merit is a hot topic all over the forum.  There are so many bounty hunters here trying to rank up and they have such a hard time earning merits--which is no surprise, but it shouldn't come as a shock that these threads keep popping up.  It's even been suggested that there should be a child board devoted to discussing merit.  IIRC I supported that and suggested that such a section should be signature-free and in which merit would not be allowed to be given.  I think that would shut a lot of shitposters up, but only if they bothered to learn about the restrictions.  That's always a crapshoot.

Just see one post above, where i have picked example of legendary member giving merit to his parked amount, that too for a post of 2015

Yeah, we were probably writing our posts at the same time.

[fonship]

Just see one post above, where i have picked example of legendary member giving merit to his parked amount, that too for a post of 2015

[fonship]

Hate to say it, but some of the best discussion happens in the Meta section.  There are other sections like mining and other technical sections, but for the most part those are out of my league.  That's why most of my sMerits have gone to posts in Meta.

I am not referring to whole Meta section. People purposefully active on only merit threads for the most part and working around merits, running threads only for merits.

As if they dont know anything about rest of the crypto space.

Now coming to good actor part:

Consider example of user EggdraSyl

Doing good work and running successful things, helping users, but limited to his forum work. But will he get merits like these merit thread runners, no.

Why no? Because he will not write essays and philosophy lectures in merit sections. He is concise in his answers because he is clear in what he is doing and keep his post to the point.

But He is not getting merits, because for merits you need to write a motivating, captivating post. Which he is not doing, so he will not get merits. He will stuck to his lower rank even if he cross his activity.

This is one example, I can give a number of such good actors.

Check the previous example of merit grabber, how he is earning merit is via merit threads. Does he deserve these many merits, for running merit threads and writing philosophies on merit system or making statical data around merit is such an important work in crypto? While people who are really working in crypto are not promoted to next level because of lack on merits. People should focus on real stuff and not worry about how to get merit.
These only active users in merit threads are clearly to gain merits.

[fonship]

Example 2: Suspicious merit action by Hero member

Hero member: sundownz
Merit is given to: photoguy

Photoguy is a 2014 account with only 33 posts, Parked Account.

Merit is given to this post, which is one line post from 2014 when merit system was not there.

Now, what action and analysis is being done to identify and punish such behavior?

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Consider example of user EggdraSyl

I would respectfully disagree with you on this example.  For one thing, EggdraSyl isn't very active, with only 57 activity and 57 posts, AND he's already got 26 merits.  I would also point out that he's posting mainly in ANN threads, which are mostly filled with garbage and he's lucky to have got what he did.  

If you've got any other examples, I'll take a look to see if there are any merit-worthy posts.  I've got a grand total of 2 sMerits to burn and I'm looking for good posts from under-merited members.

Photoguy is a 2014 account with only 33 posts, Parked Account.

I agree with that one, and not only was that an old post but it was a shitpost as well.

Hero Member: Bardman

I agree with you on this one as well.  The problem is that he's posting mainly in Speculation, where good posts are buried under a mountain of shit.  I'll take a closer look and see if I can give him a couple merits.

Do you think the merit that was given for this post was malicious:

Whut tha flipskits is'n a rivetz?  Neva herd of it.

You all own some a thet?  Do it be worth summethin?  Betchu it's jist anotha peace a' poop coin.  Or it be on yobit, where evvathing go to die.

The post was made before the merit system was put in place, and the person who wrote it is obviously a psychotic lunatic.  Probably impotent as well.

[fonship]

Consider example of user EggdraSyl

I would respectfully disagree with you on this example.  For one thing, EggdraSyl isn't very active, with only 57 activity and 57 posts, AND he's already got 26 merits.  I would also point out that he's posting mainly in ANN threads, which are mostly filled with garbage and he's lucky to have got what he did.  

If you've got any other examples, I'll take a look to see if there are any merit-worthy posts.  I've got a grand total of 2 sMerits to burn and I'm looking for good posts from under-merited members.

Photoguy is a 2014 account with only 33 posts, Parked Account.

I agree with that one, and not only was that an old post but it was a shitpost as well.

One bad actor you already flagged: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=308444

I am not a stat guy, and dont know how to pull data, so i am manually finding things to share here.

Yes Ann is garbage but EggDraSyl, never posted garbage he post what he work on.
I will find more example of good actors.

[fonship]

Example 3: Suspicious merit action by Legendary member with good trust rating

Legendary Member: IMZ
Merit is given to: azbu - Account from 2014 with only 42 activity, parked account.

Merit given to this post, Post is from 2014, does not seem to deserve any merit. 10 merits were given.

looks like this TRUSTED Legendary member is also legendary in maintaining number of parked accounts and shamelessly giving merits to very old posts of those parked accounts:
See Here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;u=330540

just wanted to understand what action is taken in such cases?

Should I keep going on to prove how bad actors using smerits? Or examples given so far for this point are sufficient?

[The Sceptical Chymist]

<snip>

I edited my above post with responses, just FYI.  I don't like to post too many times in one thread.

But I get your point.  Merit abuses do happen and some members probably don't get the merits they deserve.  I think the latter is a function of where they're posting.  Merit sources, I think, are weighted more heavily toward certain sections more so than others.

If you have examples of undermerited users, you can PM me a list if you want.  I just ran out of sMerits, but I did give one to Bardman just now.

[YGRJ]

hi,

i got an idea
we can having a voting system for deleting the merits or post
for example
we can delete the merits or post, when 10 person high ranking member (Sr and above) are vote delete on that post/merit
deleting wont effect if dint reach 10 person vote it

this is bitcoin forum
just like the bitcoin, the power not hand by someone but every one (almost)
decentralize

thank

[fonship]

Do you think the merit that was given for this post was malicious:

Whut tha flipskits is'n a rivetz?  Neva herd of it.

You all own some a thet?  Do it be worth summethin?  Betchu it's jist anotha peace a' poop coin.  Or it be on yobit, where evvathing go to die.

The post was made before the merit system was put in place, and the person who wrote it is obviously a psychotic lunatic.  Probably impotent as well.

Yes, this post was made before merit system, but I dont think this is malicious. Considering this post was the 2nd post on the thread, possibly merit giver stumbled upon this old thread and kind of this 2nd comment aligned with his views, so he might have decided to give merit.

I suspect more if any older posts buried in inner pages of a thread, not in starting and not in the end, but this post was on the first page itself.

[DdmrDdmr]

<…>I will post more proof about other problems, but this guy is the perfect example of only writing about merits for most part, if you look whom he gave merits, you will see some other people also who do similar activities.<…>
 

Nice summary there …

Merit just happens to be an area on the forum where one can contribute through analysis. The official data files provided by the forum are merit.txt and trust.txt, so it’s rather natural from an availability point of view that those willing to analyse this sort of information will have this information at the core.

Since overall Merit System overview is scarce with the default system statistics, I for one would appreciate anyone that does and has come up with information derived from the data that helps me/us understand how, a now vital element to the forum, is being used and highlighting the flaws we may see. We are in Meta after all, which is about the forum structure and governance, were really most of the energy is unfortunately spent on wishful thinking, but that serves some intelligent brainstorming sessions (with a few exceptions).

I would suggest that you go a step further and read the content of the posts you mention, and not just criticise the fact that they have been merited. If you actually manage to understand them (I know they are not that simple to grasp), you’ll see that they either try to give answers to what other forum members have asked, go on to stating that merit is rather concentrated and therefore puts a focus on this fact, highlighting the fact that merit is ever so more difficult for the higher ranks, displays multiple views to see how the system is working week by week, by forum section, etc., serves as a base to see our complete history (amongst other swifter methods devised by other forum members), maybe help to track-down merit abuse, etc.

I can’t see the above as non-valuable. Off to the beach now...

[athanz88]

hi,

i got an idea
we can having a voting system for deleting the merits or post
for example
we can delete the merits or post, when 10 person high ranking member (Sr and above) are vote delete on that post/merit
deleting wont effect if dint reach 10 person vote it

this is bitcoin forum
just like the bitcoin, the power not hand by someone but every one (almost)
decentralize

thank

This is the best idea that comes up so far in this thread, even in this whole forum.

But wait, that is a sarcasm from me. Are you even serious? Really? Can you imagine that people will act as a group and will make a war here and there to delete other people merits/posts? Because people will try to make other members not able to join any campaign. Not to mention all the other mess that comes along with that like increasing number of reports to the mderators.

Come on, i suggest you re-read your post before you posted it, and no, the decentralization system or spirit of bitcoin does not have anything to do with bitcointalk. Bitcointalk is a forum and it is owned by group of persons.

And for the OP.
Is it wrong if people talk about merit and they got merits? If yes, then tell me (us) how is it wrong? Is there a rule that stated merit must be given to a specific discussion? Please answer this 2 questions

[darklus123]

Lack of proper education became counter productive because of that more then 50% of merits dropped is never used till date.
You can see even large number of high ranking users never used their smerits effectively.

Again, you should also understand that it is our prerogative to either used the smerit or not. If this high ranking users are not giving merits then that is not because of the lack of knowledge but simply because this users haven't seen any good threads or specific replies to be awarded by one. You know why does most of the high ranking users does not give merits that easily? Simple because they are more observant and not a part of the merit abused.

Unlike most of the merit abusers who are usually from Jr. member to full members who are participating in the system holes. Since they can all benefits trading merits.

as you have stated here:

On the other side, large accounts which got good amount of smerit, used merits to give to their own parked accounts. I have proofs but i recommend an internal analysis to take collective action.

and here

3. Stick to more active and bigger threads, and only post in that thread to make friends along and keep passing merits to each other.

I would like to call for action against merit abusers.

If you really wanted to then start acting, report every merit abused with proven evidences to the moderators. Through this you can easily help them to eliminate  this kind of acts.

Also, smerit airdrop should again happen, eligibility and conditions can be discussed, like burning previous smerit left since months, or dropping more proportion to people who used smerits.

Airdropping of smerit is pretty useless thing. There are already a good numbers of smerit distributors.

[Steamtyme]

Here's my on topic portion. Merit is what it is, there are people I've seen earn a tremendous amount of merit that IMO don't deserve what they have. Then there are others who do earn what they've received. It's all about how someone else perceives the post. The Smerit is theirs to do with as they please. Again Merit is only a hurdle to the next rank, and generally that does not matter to someone unless they are concerned with SIG campaigns.

If a user decides they want to earn some merit but they hang in a particularly low distribution area, they can see if there are other areas of the forum in which they can contribute to a meaningful conversation. They will still be at the mercy of others but maybe they will earn some. There are also people out there running threads that will review submitted posts, so if they become interested in Merit they can feel free to research and find these threads.


Now why I really posted. Please correct your muliposts. I am giving you the opportunity in this thread rather than reporting it. I had to come back just for this as I see you make a habit of it. You can use the Edit button on a post to ad to it, as opposed to multiple posts in a row. This looks especially bad when wearing a paid SIG.

I have reported them in the linked thread, but asked for them to be merged.

[fonship]

And for the OP.
Is it wrong if people talk about merit and they got merits? If yes, then tell me (us) how is it wrong? Is there a rule that stated merit must be given to a specific discussion? Please answer this 2 questions

1. Its not wrong to talk about merits.
2. No rule for giving merit to only specific discussion.

Now, I have answered to your questions.
What is wrong in only writing about merits, only, for most part, be active i merits forums. This is suspicious, if you are not hired or assigned to be a merit expert.

What benefit a person gets only talking about merit? Do they again any knowledge of bitcoin, i think main aim for this whole portal is to talk about bitcoin, on any topic, and other related eco system in crypto field.

What you take one few person only talk on the subject of merit, are they even interested in bitcoin? If not, why they are on this forum.

Why specific discussion on merit subject gets more merit, because people were forced to talk on merit subject else they are not getting merit.
There are higher chances that who comes on merit threads, either understands merit system or looking to get merit or wants to know about merit. All of these thing makes them more likely to give merits as compared to other topics. Forum leader can check the data and if i am wrong in this, should correct me. i am here to discuss and improve not to bash anyone.