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Author Topic: The money is not disappearing  (Read 1768 times)
MoonShadow
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October 19, 2011, 11:05:22 PM
 #21

I count believing strongly as investing strongly in terms of dollars, anything else is very hard to measure. As large amounts of people are selling they must be less invested in the currency and as of such are leaving in the way that matters... with their capital.

"I'm right, therefore I'm right (I said it so it must be true)!"

feel free to suggest another useful measure and then we would have a reasonable argument, but my hypothesis is just that a hypothesis, it needs better data. I never said it was definite just that it seems reasonable based on the data available.


As I have twice pointed out, you stated it as a fact, which implies that you have sufficent data to support that postion.  I then pointed out that it's impossible for you to have such data, an actual fact that you do not contest.  So now you claim that it's a "likely" conclusion and a "hypothesis".  My own hypothesis is that you are either a troll, or a child who cannot accept when he has made an error in logic.  I suggest that you enlighten me as to which is true, before I make an arbitrary decision as to how I shall proceed.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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rplg
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October 20, 2011, 10:30:21 PM
 #22

A lot of people are talking about how the falling bitcoin prices is making money evaporate, as though Bitcoin is somehow eating up life savings. The only thing that is evaporating is electricity and overheated GPUs, everything else is just changing hands. If you draw an imaginary boundary around all of the people playing the bitcoin exchange game and consider all of the real dollars that they have put into it, there is no sinkhole where dollars are disappearing into. It's just they have redistributed there wealth between the players. It's like playing poker at your buddies house, you came to the table, made a bet, and someone lost and someone won. The people who bought at $30 lost, and the people who sold at $30 won.

Similarly, there was no money tree when the price was ramping up. If you made money, that was late adopters putting cash into your hands. A purely speculative commodity trading environment (which is pretty much what Bitcoin is if you get rid of mining and the constant flux in how many people are playing) is just another type of poker. You are gambling on the actions of other individuals who in turn are gambling on the actions of you and everyone else. In a sense it's more pure than poker because if there is no fundamental value then the game is purely psychological. There is some data to be studied in looking at how many people are joining in based on media attention and whatnot. But I think that the sheep are the minority, and most players are out to make personal profit.

Also, why can't I post anywhere else yet. I've been stuck in this stupid forum for too long.
There might be some positive things with the price drop. People holding thousands, if not tens or hundreds of thousand bitcoins, can definitely make the price go up. Until they found their 1000% profit is enough and start selling, and the price starts dropping. I guess that is what happened by the end of July, accompanied by the mtgox password leak, mybitcoin going down and losing coins, and that polish exchange accidently deleting 17k BTC.

This raises the question, how many private keys are lost?

Either way I am not concerned of the price, I simply do not consider bitcoin an investment. I can keep $100 on a reliable exchange, and buy bitcoins when I need them. Merchants can set up a system to auto adjust prices and instantly transfer to an exchange to sell the coins, to make sure they don't lose on the fluctuation. Luckily I can make use of free SEPA transfers. I hope more options become available so people are only subject to a 0.5% conversion fee at the exchanges.
RandyFolds
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October 21, 2011, 12:14:38 AM
 #23

People holding thousands, if not tens or hundreds of thousand bitcoins, can definitely make the price go up. Until they found their 1000% profit is enough and start selling, and the price starts dropping. I guess that is what happened by the end of July, accompanied by the mtgox password leak, mybitcoin going down and losing coins, and that polish exchange accidently deleting 17k BTC.

mybitcoin skipped town with everyone's holdings and those polish 'lost' coins were more than likely stolen.

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burlington
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October 21, 2011, 11:42:30 AM
 #24

My first post here and one of warning. Intersango don't seem to be processing my deposits over the last few days and aren't replying to any communications. So my money has definitely disappeared, right now anyway. Perhaps people want to be wary of them for now. Maybe the price collapse over the last week or so has hit them hard.... Either way, I'd advise caution for now  Sad
Bitcoin2CDKey
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October 21, 2011, 11:43:44 AM
 #25

#1 agree

now you can convert 0.4 BTC in 2.4 BTC in 10 seconds! try it http://goo.gl/dHRiYp
burlington
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October 21, 2011, 09:53:09 PM
 #26

Yeah, confirmed. Intersango having banking problems. Won't be seeing my money for an unknown period of time. Maybe someone with full status might want to warn others not to deposit with them until it's sorted because they won't  be able to convert their money or get it back until they get new banking facilities and records of deposits to their old account. Really pissed off with this....
calmindifference
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October 21, 2011, 11:08:41 PM
 #27

Yeah, confirmed. Intersango having banking problems. Won't be seeing my money for an unknown period of time. Maybe someone with full status might want to warn others not to deposit with them until it's sorted because they won't  be able to convert their money or get it back until they get new banking facilities and records of deposits to their old account. Really pissed off with this....

Really shocking in this day and age that you can transfer money to a closed bank account and it just ends up falling into the abyss
repentance
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October 21, 2011, 11:18:24 PM
 #28

Yeah, confirmed. Intersango having banking problems. Won't be seeing my money for an unknown period of time. Maybe someone with full status might want to warn others not to deposit with them until it's sorted because they won't  be able to convert their money or get it back until they get new banking facilities and records of deposits to their old account. Really pissed off with this....

If you can give me a link to information about their banking problems or post an email from them about this issue, I can post it on one of the main forums.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
yogi
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October 22, 2011, 02:19:09 PM
 #29

Here is the notice on their website:-

Notice
Transfers made to our HSBC account on or after the 19th which have not been linked to your account will be delayed.
HSBC has unexpectedly closed our account.
They did so without any warning.
We are working on alternative banking options, but of course are having trouble quickly opening a new account.
Transfer made into the account after our records stop but before the account was actually closed will be delayed until we can obtain the records.

kiyote
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October 22, 2011, 03:53:13 PM
 #30

Looking at all the graphs and numbers for the past couple of days, I think that the bubble period was an exception, rather than a rule.  We seem to have fallen back to the point where bitcoin value would be if it had grown linearly and the difficulty to produce a new has is dropping back down to a reasonable level for new miners. 

BitCoin was probably not ready for that level yet, but it doesn't mean it still can't grow there.

In hindsight, I agree with this assessment.  It sure didn't feel like it on the way up, though.  I, for one, could not tell that it was in a bubble above $10 until it was well over $20.  These things are not clear except in retrospect.

Bubbles are always hard to see when you're in them, even if it's blatantly obvious when you're out of them.  Take a look at the tech bubble, or, even worse, the housing bubble.  Now that it's over, everyone is all like, "I have to pay a million dollar mortgage on what!?
burlington
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October 27, 2011, 11:24:43 AM
 #31

Intersango still haven't cleared their backlog (ie; my money) so their problems continue  Huh On a positive side, the btc market has had a sort of a double bounce off approx £1.71. Maybe this indicates a decent resistance point and the bottom of the price collapse and a good time to buy? Where I live, property speculators are buying again big time on the reckoning that the burst has gone as low as it will. Wealth warning: I know sweet f.a. about currency speculation Roll Eyes
kiyote
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October 27, 2011, 09:28:57 PM
 #32

Intersango still haven't cleared their backlog (ie; my money) so their problems continue  Huh On a positive side, the btc market has had a sort of a double bounce off approx £1.71. Maybe this indicates a decent resistance point and the bottom of the price collapse and a good time to buy? Where I live, property speculators are buying again big time on the reckoning that the burst has gone as low as it will. Wealth warning: I know sweet f.a. about currency speculation Roll Eyes

I'm starting to see the same thing in Chicago.  Investors are moving in quickly to snatch up foreclosed houses, but the economy is still bad enough that there's still a glut of houses the banks need to get rid of.  Even in the last six months, the housing prices have dropped further. 

Not saying that the same has happened to bitcoins, but markets are hard to predict with certainty. 
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