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Author Topic: theymos could you sticky your intent on the reputation board  (Read 1569 times)
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February 01, 2020, 04:18:43 AM
 #41

If it is absolute criteria it is not really based on anyone's views now is it?

I'm saying it's not possible to implement it the way you want it unless you manage to force everyone to agree with you. Your suggested criteria is based on your view that only committed scams should be subject to negative trust, but your view is clearly in the minority in DT1. Many other users prefer an early warning system.

The trust system actually allows your criteria to be used (anyone who agrees with your criteria can add you to their trust list) along with any other point of view. Your argument for limiting the freedom of choice is quite perplexing.

You aren't arguing against my points. You are just saying "no one will ever agree so I guess we have to have no standards". I like how you frame arbitrary tagging of users without documented basis as "freedom of choice". Almost makes it sounds like you are enforcing people's rights to take other people's rights to exist here like anyone else without being harassed over constantly shifting totally arbitrary rules. You have the right to shut the fuck up and be subject to the random whims of internet mobs. Que libertad!
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February 03, 2020, 12:04:40 AM
Last edit: May 16, 2023, 02:25:48 PM by Timelord2067
 #42

...
You aren't arguing against my points. You are just saying "no one will ever agree so I guess we have to have no standards". I like how you frame arbitrary tagging of users without documented basis as "freedom of choice". Almost makes it sounds like you are enforcing people's rights to take other people's rights to exist here like anyone else without being harassed over constantly shifting totally arbitrary rules. You have the right to shut the fuck up and be subject to the random whims of internet mobs. Que libertad!

Quote from: Timelord2067 link=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=131361;page=sent;offset=500

(there's a certain irony in this file name):

Code:
https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/16/blobd824e2e0c6d91a25.jpeg



Quote
Suchmoon: "If you wanna joke around - use red, it's a fun a festive color."

http://archive.fo/wK1aB#selection-5315.69-5315.132 / http://archive.fo/yQlbZ#selection-4899.69-4899.132

Quote



Same goes with Lauda: Archive [1a], [1b]

Quote

I'm not participating given that it is a unmoderated thread. I'll just be tagging more often, and more faster.

Have fun.
D.



These people have no regard for their frivolous application of negative trust feedback and freely gloat they aren't using the trust feedback for what it is intended.

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February 03, 2020, 04:01:16 AM
 #43

Also is "lying" really a valid metric?
Not on this forum... Roll Eyes

I've seen too many bun fights break out here in Meta and on Reputation, where someone will say something that is simply "incorrect" (for whatever reason)... and the response is inevitably "That's a LIE!!!!!11!!11!1!!!ONEELEVEN!!!!!" Roll Eyes

Then the "Tells lies, is untrustworthy" red tags start... and the next thing you know we have about 23983475893653456407498 threads titled something like "REEEEEEEEEEEEE <insert name> tells LIES and is ABUSING TRUST" Undecided

Apparently nobody makes mistakes around here... instead they're all deliberately intending to deceive Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Kudos to Theymos for attempting to clarify (again) what his thoughts are on Trust and Flags... The very muddy water is slightly less muddy Tongue

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February 03, 2020, 05:10:47 AM
 #44

Also is "lying" really a valid metric?
Not on this forum... Roll Eyes

I've seen too many bun fights break out here in Meta and on Reputation, where someone will say something that is simply "incorrect" (for whatever reason)... and the response is inevitably "That's a LIE!!!!!11!!11!1!!!ONEELEVEN!!!!!" Roll Eyes

Then the "Tells lies, is untrustworthy" red tags start... and the next thing you know we have about 23983475893653456407498 threads titled something like "REEEEEEEEEEEEE <insert name> tells LIES and is ABUSING TRUST" Undecided

Apparently nobody makes mistakes around here... instead they're all deliberately intending to deceive Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Kudos to Theymos for attempting to clarify (again) what his thoughts are on Trust and Flags... The very muddy water is slightly less muddy Tongue

Kind of my point. This arbitrary standard causes plenty of conflict and solves nothing.
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February 03, 2020, 05:57:40 AM
 #45

You aren't arguing against my points. You are just saying "no one will ever agree so I guess we have to have no standards". I like how you frame arbitrary tagging of users without documented basis as "freedom of choice". Almost makes it sounds like you are enforcing people's rights to take other people's rights to exist here like anyone else without being harassed over constantly shifting totally arbitrary rules. You have the right to shut the fuck up and be subject to the random whims of internet mobs. Que libertad!

Do you have an actual quote of me saying that, one that you didn't make up?

Because what I actually said is this:

The trust system actually allows your criteria to be used (anyone who agrees with your criteria can add you to their trust list) along with any other point of view.

The good news is that if many or majority of users ever agree with you then the trust system is able to handle such a shift.

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May 02, 2020, 12:30:15 PM
 #46

This topic deserves a bump Smiley

And theymos' post deserves more attention Smiley

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July 31, 2020, 05:50:42 AM
 #47

Moved here to stop going off topic.
The exact criteria for a red tag comes down to this:
Quote
You think that trading with this person is high-risk.

No it comes down to this.
The system is for handling trade risk, not for flagging people for good/bad posts/personalities/ideas.
~snip~
 - Leave negative ratings if you actively think that trading with the person is less safe than with a random person.
 - Unstable behavior could very occasionally be an acceptable reason for leaving negative trust, but if it looks like you're leaving negative trust due to personal disagreements, then that's inappropriate. Ratings are not for popularity contests, virtue signalling, punishing people for your idea of wrongthink, etc.

I would not consider drawing conclusions from the ruling of an arbitrated dispute to be unstable behavior. So again unless these posters are simultaneously acting in bad faith regarding Trades/Services, I advocate for neutral tags to note  opinions on their behavior/opinions/posts.

That or we could start tagging people for typos and grammar. They could mess up the terms which makes them a risk to trade with.

That's my piece and the more I wrote I feel I needed to end it with this. I try not to tell people how to do things and seem to be having a harder time of it lately. This is my opinion, take it for that.  It's your feedback use it as you will, but there are guidelines.

What I quoted and what you quoted signify the same thing. You're leaping to conclude that the ratings would necessarily be based on personal disagreements when this isn't the case.

Stretching out the argument out to include red tags for "typos and grammar" serves no purpose -- you're headed down the straw man path which is counterproductive to discussion of the issue at hand.

The actual disagreement between us is whether or not the trust system should be used proactively. You're entitled to your opinion on that matter, but to assume contrary opinions necessarily fall into the basket of wanting to use red trust to punish people for disagreeing with them is a stretch.
Telling me what our disagreement really clears things up for a fella  Roll Eyes

You can consider it leaning to a strawman all you want. I offered it up as a comparison as I find the idea of telling people they can't comment about a ruling after the fact with their opinions on either party, or risk being red-tagged; to be as ludicrous as my example. I see no difference in threatening to see people red tagged over commenting their opinions one way or another over an arbitration in a scam dispute. No point in my post did I say "Well this is what you say is okay and it's the same as this which is so stupid, can't believe you are for this."

What I quoted lends to the idea that this is a nuanced system and not as black and white as the "You think trading with this person is high risk". I was sharing what seems to be forgotten all to soon information and guidance. Telling people if they post in this thread after deserves a red tag, is well outside what I consider to be appropriate use.

I then left the caviat where the reasoning of tagging someone for their opinions/posts could warrant a tag. If it falls into unstable behavior which in itself is a wide net.

I would re-read your last sentence and apply it yourself in this case. I am not against pro-active use of the trust system, I am against the lines being blurred to the point where peoples opinions on a forum matter and comments about this afterwards are now negative tag worthy.

I straight up advocated to tag these users neutral if people feel a tag is necessary.


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July 31, 2020, 01:47:07 PM
 #48

~

Since I kinda started it in the other thread, I have to say that I very clearly stated the possible reason for red trust:

Red trust is for users who are high-risk in trading. Someone continuing to escalate a dispute after binding mediation - high-risk shithead IMO.

I don't think that would be abuse and it's specific to that situation, not a generic "red trust for commenting on a dispute" scenario. Keep in mind that a big part of the reason why the parties agreed to mediation is because they want to resolve the trust flag and put an end to it. Continuing to escalate it after it's been resolved (e.g. continuing to support the [obviously invalid at that point] flag, or continuing to claim it's a scam) - that'd be abuse of the trust system and malicious behavior.

I know the concept of binding mediation is alien to this forum because we want to keep trolling the shit out of every dispute, and that will probably preclude any such mediation from taking place in the future, but it is really simple. When a dispute is brought up for public debate - fair game. When mediation is agreed upon by the involved parties - the case is no longer up for public debate. We can't really prevent people from being assholes about it, but continuing to make accusations would be equivalent to simply making shit up out of the blue.

So ultimately it's about how you treat false accusations. Most of the time I would agree that a neutral is enough. But mediation is such a clear-cut scenario that I can't think of a non-malicious reason to continue making accusations. If you do - please enlighten Smiley
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